His accountant? His end of year taxes? A trip out of town? So what! BS. Don't let those "reasons" have any influence on your decisions about the work in your home.

You say, "I feel badly for him"... STOP IT RIGHT NOW! That won't get your repairs, and he doesn't want your empathy, he wants your money for a job NOT completed. Once you give it to him, then what motivation does he have to make it right?

Perhaps you should put your expectations in writing, much as you outlined above.

HE is the general contractor, it is his responsibility isn't it? Someone ruined the sink, unless you are working on it yourself, then it was either him or one of his subs. He needs to deal with it, whatever it takes. He should have insurance to cover it, it's part of doing business.

At this point you have no way of knowing what it's going to cost to make it right. How could you know by the end of today? I assume you don't know if the counter will have to be replaced as well? For those reasons, and more, holding back only a portion of final payment isn't a good idea. How much would it cost to fix all of that...Hold the final payment until the work is satisfactory. Don't let him pressure you for anything else. Doing so only makes him appear to be dishonest. So how could paying him in advance of a finished job be fair to you, you'd be left to "hope" for the best? Payment is the ONLY leverage you have to get this dealt with.

Write up a punch list and let him know that you will be happy to extend payment once the work is complete and correct.

Okay, so he says he didn't tighten the flange. Have him show you exactly what he DID do to "fix" the problem. I don't know anything about fixing leaks but it sounds like you know that tightening the flange is a common remedy. I would get him over to sink, on hands and knees if necessary look underneath and have him show you what he did do.....not what he says he didn't do. That might help. Have another person witness what he says......jeesh. this is just awful.

Agreed, do not pay him everything, you have a situation that must be resolved. He is pressuring you because he wants out before the proverbial blank hits the proverbial fan! If there were no cracks before he fixed the leak he needs to take some responsibility for this.

Hang in there Therese......

Is it time to get your own representation? Perhaps set up an escrow account to put your payments into?

The guy's taxes are not your problem. He didn't earn the final payments in 2010 because the job isn't done. He should have been saving toward his taxes all year and filing quarterlies.

The contractor's emotions are not your problem!! What about your emotions? Every week or two you've had another thread about how all wrong your remodel has been. Who's taking care of your emotions??

Is there an ombudsman, professional oversight organization, or mediator you can bring in?

Perhaps you should notify him that your legal council has advised you not to pay him until the job is complete. Perhaps his accountant should speak with your lawyer ;)
He does not deserve any more money until the job is complete. His taxes are NOT your problem. The cracks in your sink, the unfinished panel, the hinges and doors, etc ARE his problem. Certainly if he wants to get payed. I don't know of many people who are payed for incomplete work.

Taxes don't have to be filed until April 15th of each year. He can get an extension, if necessary, for several more months, by paying a small fine. He can also go back and amend returns, up to several years.

The only thing he might have to pay right now...are his quarterly taxes (if he's self employed). Either way, not your problem.

Tell him YOUR accountant think you should NOT pay anymore...until the job is done to YOUR satisfaction. If he'd like to have a second opinion, I'm sure your lawyer would say the same thing.

Don't show any weakness, be confident and tell him you'll be happy to pay him...as soon as the job is completed! :)

What nonsense! If you pay him now, 2011, it will not affect his 2010 taxes. He's just trying to get money out of you. As others have said, tell him your lawyer/accountant said "no way!". His taxes are his problem, not yours.

Marcolo, you always crack me up!

I agree with the others, please do not feel pressured into paying him! He is just trying to manipulate you to get what he wants. You are within your rights to withhold money if the sink has cracked and you think he is the cause. It's never easy to have to confront someone, but you may be sorry that you didn't when you had the chance.

My heart goes out to you. I love your kitchen and feel like you are a friend. Stay strong. Tell him you'd love nothing more than to pay him . . . as soon as the job is done. End of story.

I had hired a cabinet maker for all the kitchen cabinets, the woodframe for the DW and the Fridge. He did a beautiful job.

I designed an entertainment center for the family room which houses a 52" TV on one side and a gas fireplace on the other with display shelves and storage drawers in the middle.

He built in exactly as I wanted and beautifully EXCEPT, the front of the drawels were too short (vertically).
Other than that, It was done.
He said He would be "Back Tomorrow" to fix the drawer fronts-----so I paid him (after all He had done everything right in the kitchen and was paid for that.)

Well, "long story short", That was the last I ever heard from him. He would return none of my calls.

It will probably cost me around $500 to redo the drawer fronts, sooooo---I guess you "Get My Drift"
"Don't pay him in full, till the job is done right"!!!1

Gary

The fact that you have not paid the balance is, very possibly, the only reason he returns your call. Do not pay any more until the kitchen is completed to your reasonable satisfaction.

Whether he is a good guy or not, what his accountant is saying, or whether his pregnant wife is desperately in need of a life-saving operation so that she can finish her work of curing cancer and ending war in our time, is all wholly irrelevant.

Note: in a dispute with a contractor, at some point you may hear "I'll file a mechanic's lien on your house". Don't be impressed by that. It is not irrelevant, but not a reason to pay for a kitchen not completed.

Did you have permits for this remodel? In my state, the back of the permit states that final payment to the contractor cannot be made until after the job passes inspection. Contractors know better than to ask for payment ahead of the inspections.

Regardless of what he wants, do not pay him the final amount until the job is completed to your satisfaction and the job passes inspections.

Just look him straight in the eye and say, "And YOUR financial problems are MY problems HOW? If you had completed the job, you would have already been paid and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Just tell me when I can expect my kitchen back, and I'll post date the check right now in anticipation of that day. Don't bring this up again until we're done here. Period."

>>>I'll post date the check right now

just to be clear, that's a great line but do not actually give him a post-dated check - bank's often don't honor post-dating and will cash a check early

I second what Weissman said...banks do not always notice the date...and will cash the check, anyway.

You've gotten great advice. Tell him the sooner he finishes, the sooner you can pay him...and the sooner he can pay his taxes :)

"If you pay him now, 2011, it will not affect his 2010 taxes. He's just trying to get money out of you."

My thoughts exactly. Pay him per the terms of the agreement. You shouldn't feel bad. Just tell him that you will pay him the balance when the balance of the work is complete.

As others have pointed out: paying him in 2011 will not affect his 2010 taxes. Do they know how a calendar works??

Also, that HE is the general contractor, not you. YOU did not work on the sink, the plumbing the garbage disposal. He or one of his subcontractors did. He needs to take of this. That's his job. It's an unfortunate turn of events, but it's his to deal with.

Hang in there. Hang tough. You can do this!

Just backing up everyone else when I say that nothing you can do now can affect his taxes.

You need to stick to your guns!

Good luck!

I agree with everyone here. I also think that this guy probably knows your situation and is a heartless jerk for adding to your stress.
You will pay when the work is completed. That is simple. You have a contract that states such. No need to argue or confront anyone. Just refer him to the contract. I'd have a punch list of what still needs doing ready for when he asks for payment. Put it all in writing and keep a copy for yourself.
You deserve better treatment at this point, with or without your husband's illness. Try to be calm but if not, try to look a little crazy and you just may scare him a little, lol.

Hi everyone -

Haha dianalo - I'm sure I look crazy enough...

Thank you everyone so much for being so good to me and for all the great advice. I'd respond more individually except that I'm up in bed, not feeling well (mostly from being sleep-deprived really badly) and I have about an hour to try to get some sleep, of possible. sorry for the TMI!

The contractor just arrived and is doing the finishing work. That's not the issue so much - I mean he's working hard to finish up. I don't know this for a fact, being upstairs, but I can hear it! He didn't have much more to do and he already had the punch list I'd emailed him last week. It looks to him I'm sure like I'm avoiding him, being upstairs this whole time, but I'm just so exhausted physically!

So let's say he finishes EVERYTHING except the hairline fractures sink issue. It's mostly that issue that I don't know how to handle. I don't know if the cracks are cosmetic or not or if they're worsening or not. Rohl says to take a picture of it and send it to them to determine whether or not the types of cracks would be considered their fault and therefore if they should replace the sink at no cost to me. But either way, my contractor isn't owning this sink problem. And it's a catch-22 cause if they say that the sink isn't their fault cause someone tightened the flange, then they won't give me a new free sink. But i know what you'll say: you'll say then the contractor can pay for the new sink, too - with his insurance if nothing else, plus all the labor, right? WHY DO I FEEL SO BAD FOR HIM? What's wrong with me! The guy was just about done with the kitchen and so close to being out of the door. I know he's got to be thinking that he was off by just a few days! Unless he knows he caused the cracks cause he heard some weird sound when tightening the flange! What the heck do I know? NOTHING. I honestly don't feel like he's a jerk - but just not much of a pro. As far as contractors go, seldom have I met one as gentle-spirited as he is, honestly. But he's made some poor choices and a yes you might say he's panicking a little here at the end of this home stretch, for some good reasons. He's been far from perfect, that's true - but he's just a young guy who has a lot to learn still, and will no doubt have learned a LOT from this job by the time it's *truly* done.

Awkward as it is, I have no real problem telling him I can't pay him just yet (or that I can pay him for some of the work but not all) but I don't know what to do about the sink. Is saying that no one's touched the disposal except him enough to hold up in a court of law for example? Or is this just a really gray, fuzzy problem that will have to result in a compromise? How much of a compromise? How much does it cost a person who charges $45/hour to tear out the support below a sink, uncaulk the sink, remove the sink, then put in a new support, put a new sink back in, then re-scribe the new sink which takes a long time to do (scribing)? What if I'd paid him off and the job was done and the sink had cracked the day after? Just wondering about the legalities of all this.

Oh to have sleep! I could function with just a LITTLE bit of sleep but I haven't slept in days more or less and it's catching up to me. Last night was my sure night to get sleep but my boys called out to me all night long for everything under the sun which they never do - but it was really windy and they just SENSED how much I needed sleep!!!

thank you afain...

Theresse,

From an accounting point of view just for trying to reach a compromise on the sink:

Let's forget whose fault it is. You'll never prove it and going to court to prove it would be more money then it's worth. I can tell you with utmost sincerity that the very last thing you need to follow closely on the heels of a kitchen remodel is a lawsuit about that remodel.

I would pay go out of pocket alot to avoid that!

The goal is to create a compromise here. I can tell you what I might accept: a 50/50 split on paying for the sink and the contractor does the work for free. That offer is weighted towards the contractor paying about 60 percent of the cost and leaving you about 40. I would ONLY accept that offer by stating that I'd reimburse the contractor 50% of the sink after install.

In other words, I'd take the offer but not advance funds until the new sink had arrived and was fully installed.

If we worked out that offer I'd get it in writing as a change order to my original contract.

Good luck to you! It's always difficult to get things perfect and mistakes DO happen.

theresse, when I get seriously sleep deprived (multiple consecutive days of not much sleep), I get hysterical and cry. My brain says, "This is stupid and embarrassing." but it doesn't matter - I cry. Needless to say, I try very hard to not get in this state. All things considered, you're in pretty good shape. At least you're still rational.

You've had some good advise here, but my recommendation is to wait until you've had some rest before you pay off the contractor and go for resolution on the sink issue (not necessarily in that order). How about when he gets back from his trip? There's no emergency here. Just wait a bit.

Theresse, the only advice I can give is to not pay until all the work is finished. I just wanted you to know I'm so sorry you're having to deal with this. :( I hope this all gets resolved soon to your satisfaction so you can get some rest!

I hope you can get the sink out from under the Stainless Steel counter top which is under the marble tile backsplash.
And don't pay him another dime!
Casey

Are you absolutely certain you want the same sink again if the mfr does not reimburse you? I can understand if they replace it, to put another one of theirs in, but if not, I'd rethink something so delicate in that spot....

Don't do it!!! Not your problem if he has taxes, leaving town, whatever. Hold off until you get everything fixed and completed to your liking.
I've learned my lesson about paying in advance. It's called getting burned because they have less incentive to make it right or complete their work. I wish my husband would learn from past experience. He always feels bad, wants to be Mr Nice Guy, understanding, believes all the sob stories, etc and we always get burned. Going to be a hard a$$ from now on. It's business not charity.

I empathize with you. I hate confrontation, too, and it sounds like you had an okay relationship with your contractor. It is almost likely the fault of the contractor but (a) you can't be 100% sure right?, and (b) going to court isn't worth it. Even if you win, you might not be able to collect (a Pyrrhic victory at best). I would try to handle it as Morgne suggests assuming that it is just the sink to be replaced, though it sounds like additional areas may be damaged by its removal.

And I would push hard to get the mfr to replace the sink for goodwill even if they can't be sure it was a defect in the sink. Also, dianalo's suggestion about rethinking the sink is a good one.

Good luck!

Don't pay everything until everything is settled. Both my cabinet folks and my GC left things undone. I held back some on each of them and told them I'd figure out the final point when everything was final. Neither of them have been back, and after getting burned by folks, it's that much harder to hire someone new to come do the work. You don't know who to trust and don't want to mess with it -- even with normal family life. I can't even imagine trying to do this plus deal with your DH.

I suspect your GC wants to finish this job and move on, but paying taxes and leaving town -- sorry, he has to actually finish the job. I doubt he pays his subs or his materials suppliers for things not done or delivered (custom orders aside). He may also be afraid of your husband's illness and getting paid -- as well as the sink cracking and not knowing how to handle that or being a young guy who may not have factored in contingencies.

I would push to try to get the sink replaced -- or at least a new one supplied at their cost as a compromise. If there were a legal battle, they could get drug into it and it would certainly be cheaper and easier for them to forego profit on one sink than to hire a lawyer or fly a company rep to your location. Maybe you can even discuss being able to accept a slightly flawed second that would still be okay in your situation. Give them every chance and reason to work with you. Then get the contractor to agree to do the work without further charge. Maybe you can split any cost on a new sink, maybe you get that supplied, or maybe you supply the sink and he does the work. Any of those are probably worth doing as long as you get the work done and have a sink that isn't cracked. Just do the best you can.

But -- one word of very strong advise -- get some sleep before you tackle it. Nothing makes a lot of sense when you are seriously sleep deprived, and that's probably part of why your emotions are being manipulated here. Also, I know that when I try to have a reasoned discussion when sleep deprived, I may be extremely effective (lucky) or I may (more likely) sound like a rambling, emotional goof. Don't risk it -- get some sleep, a good cup of coffee or tea, be fresh and then address this -- or find a friend who can help you with the discussions. I sure would if I were anywhere close.

Good luck with everything. ((( )))

Who purchased the sink? If the contractor purchased it then the re-install is his issue. If you purchased it then it is not his issue unless the install caused the damage. If he purchased it then hold back the value of the sink and the re-install from the final payment until it is resolved.

As you know, I had a similar problem. I think my "financial" solution was much like what Morgne has suggested. In my case, I was the original purchaser of the sink. The contractor who damaged it (not the GC or his subs) paid for its replacement and verbally agreed that he would pay the GC for his additional labor of uninstalling the damaged one and installing the replacement. This verbal agreement was between the two contractors and never recorded in writing. Not the best way to handle it, but like you, this all happened nearing the end of the project and everyone was looking to be done, done, done -- including me! In the end, the GC came back to me many months later with his final invoice in which he tried to bill me for his additional labor with the sink. I told him that since he had negotiated his payment for that labor with the other contractor directly, he now needed to get his payment from that other contractor directly. I never heard from him again. Not exactly a "win" because, as I mentioned in your previous thread, new problems surfaced with the "fix" after the fact and now there is really no one to deal with it but me. Again, if the flaws are primarily cosmetic, Rohl has a product they sell for such. In that case, you may want to investigate the option of repair vs replacement with them and save yourself a whole lot of headaches!

I would try this:

1) Hold back the cost of a replacement sink and labor to install it from the GC until you are sure whether Rohl will replace the sink. Your sink was fine; he did work under it; suddenly it had cracks spreading from where he did the work. This is enough reason for you to sit on the money and tell him it looks like he did the damage.

2) Take photos of the sink, and write down the dates he did the work. (Not for a lawsuit-- it's not worth it especially with your family situation, but so you can make it clear to your GC that you have done so-- fear of lawsuits can be more effective than actual lawsuits!)

3) Look at the total amount involved in (1) and figure out how much stress that money is worth to you. We're all in different financial and personal positions, and you may be in a place where you can afford to pay to avoid increasing your stress levels any further. Or you may not.

Be gentle with yourself about being so exhausted and stressed-- of course you are, anyone but anyone would be.

You guys are THE BEST. Thank you so much. I can't in a million years imagine where I'd be (or how worse off anyway - ha) without this forum and all you compassionate, sympathetic, experienced and intelligent people guiding me just about every single step of the way!

I spoke with a Rohl customer service rep. today who told me that Rohl is going to get me a new sink, after having seen my pics. By the way, here are the pics of the cracked sink, if you didn't see them on my other thread:

Anyway, the catch-22 is that it's great that I'll get a new sink, but since Rohl is essentially calling it a defect (even if they know it was caused by over-tightening the flange, they may just be trying to avoid hassles, you know?), I can't as easily tell my contractor he caused it!! Not sure WHAT to do now? Who should pay for the labor? A reputable carpenter came over a few days ago who looked at the complexities of this particular installation and said it could be a $2k job - EVEN THOUGH he's not willing to touch it himself due to it being someone else's screw-up. He said the contractor who did my kitchen is clearly an amateur. He pointed out lots of issues - most of which I was aware - and including hidden shims shoved in various locations behind the drawers, which I hadn't seen before. He said he (the carpenter) could take apart/destroy the lower cabinetry only to find there are MORE hidden issues that would make it not worth his while to touch it. He said 1 in 5 carpenters will be willing to fix others' mistakes and essentially mesh their work with poor quality work (or at least that's how I took it). He said I should consider reporting my contractor to the CCB, but I don't have proof that he cracked the sink and I don't think the aesthetic problems would be taken seriously by the CCB; he hasn't exactly put our family in danger due to any of his decisions (well, except for sharp screws which come down and poke fingers when touching above the dishwasher door - and which have scratched one of the upper control buttons on my EXPENSIVE MIELE DISHWASHER - ugh!!!).

The Rohl representative said they're not likely to cover the labor but that I COULD indeed *attempt* to get it covered by them, by getting a few carpenter's quotes and submitting the request along with re-submitting the pictures again. He said it's worth trying but may not work. I found that interesting - I mean either it's covered or it's not, right? What do you guys think? Without proof that my contractor did this - and with my contractor saying he didn't - am I even able to compromise/negotiate the labor with my contractor or must I pay someone to do it all over (regardless of who)??

Thank you, as always, including for your major sympathy which I really appreciate. What a hand to be dealt lately eh?! :-/

This contractor, should not even mention anything about his taxes, to you. He, is there to do a job right. Not tell you his problem's. If your contractor, was a smart contractor he, would fix the problem himself, or pay someone else to fix it. A happy customer goes along way.

You don't need to tell your contractor that Rohl replaced it for free. Tell him that you got the new sink yourself (which is true) and you expect him to replace it as his share of creating the problem - assuming you trust him to do it.

I like weissman's suggestion. Try and do whatever you can to get the contractor to fix this. You told him not to overtighten it (who cares how long ago) and he did and I think it's fairly obvious how the sink got cracked and it's really on his shoulders to make it right.

Will your counters have to come off? Or will it be done by removing part of the sink base cabinet?

Hopefully you have held back enough from your contractor to pay for the removal and replacement. I'd get the replacement sink, give the contractor a choice to install it (correctly and with no further damage) and be paid the balance, or not be paid and you'll hire someone else. There is no reason to share how you obtained the replacement sink, and give him a way to wriggle out of fixing damage that, most likely, resulted when he tightened the disposal flange.

OMG, PLEASE do not "compromise".

Did you "order" a defective sink as part of the deal with your contractor? Of course not. Would you have hired him if he told you that he was planning to ruin your sink and leave it to be your problem? Probably not.

It is HIS responsibility whether he wants "to own it" or not.
DO NOT PAY until it's right. It's up to him to wait for the response from the manufacturer. He is being dishonest with you. Do not allow that. He will treat you only the way YOU allow him to.

If you were watching over this for your best friend, rather than yourself, would you let him off? Would it even be a consideration?

I would also not volunteer that the sink is being replaced for you -- just that you will get the sink and expect him to get it put in correctly this time or pay for all the necessary work done by someone else who can do the job right. He's not out of pocket, just more of his time which is the least that is to be expected when he screws up something.

He doesn't have any proof the sink spontaneously shot our crack emanating from the stress points around that flange because the sink was defective somehow, does he? But you do have specific instruction that there are special installation instructions to be followed and that he was made aware of that.

I'm not sure where I fall on this....

If he cracked it with the garbage disposal thats one thing. he may have, I don't know enough about this stuff to say difinitively but its really a yes or no thing.

you bought the sink right? if you did, and he didn't screw up the install, its your problem. ie: the origioanl number the contractor is charging you includes installing the sink once. Second time is on you.

If he buys the sink and its defective he fixes it for free.

I'm not sure what road you want to go down, but telling him the sink(you bought) is defective, is not going to get him to fix it for free.

Theresse,

If Rohl is telling you that the sink is defective and you are the person who supplied the sink for that job then the quality of the merchandise IS your responsibility.

I believe that you know that and that the people on this thread know that. If you have to keep your free sink a secret, if you have to withhold information from him I think it is a clear indication of not doing the right thing.

I suggested offering to share the burden on a higher post with the idea that you could never know whose fault it is. Now we now. The fault belongs to Rohl. Sadly, it's up to you for having supplied the sink to get that money from Rohl.

Even if he does all the work himself he will not be doing the install for "free". He will have other clients that he could have been working with. By tricking him into working on your home instead of working on another paying job you are literally taking the money out of his pocket.

This grey area is why so often these "young contractors that are learning" become old contractors who won't work with home owners who want to do their own sourcing or wish to assist with demo. This is the beginning of an ugly cycle.

I urge you not to lie to the contractor and to try and scam him into doing the labor for you.

I think if the sink is defective and you supplied the sink then you are responsible for the cost reinstall a new sink.
It is up to you to pursue a labor claim from Rohl.
I am sorry this has happened to you, but please do the right thing and be honest with your contractor.

I urge you not to lie to the contractor and to try and scam him into doing the labor for you.

BULL.

Over-tightening a flange is a known cause of fireclay sinks cracking and crazing in precisely this way. Theresse's problem started immediately after the contractor "messed around with" the disposal. Translation: He overtightened it to stop a leak.

The fact that Rohl is cheerfully agreeing to replace the sink as "defective" in no way exonerates the contractor's ineptitude or even shows the sink was actually defective. They are simply trying to maintain good relationships with consumers, the way RH or Zappo's will let you return an item a thousand years after you bought it. Not because they are acknowledging a defect with their products, but simply as a good-will PR gesture. Rohl is doing the same thing.

Theresse didn't manufacturer the sink. She didn't install it. She didn't specify some weird requirement for installation against manufacturer's instructions. She is in no way responsible for it cracking. She did, however, pay good money for the sink, and is paying good money for its installation. So she is entitled to her sink, as new, period.

if you have to withhold information from him I think it is a clear indication of not doing the right thing.

No, it is a clear indication that a bad contractor cannot be trusted to do his job or discharge his responsibilities.

No one is suggesting Theresse get the contractor to work for free, get the sink for free, and get him to write a check to her for the price of the sink so she makes a profit on the deal. We are demanding that she be made whole and get what she paid for.

Amen, Marcolo. Amen!

I agree wholeheartedly with marcolo. It would not be fair to expect Rohl to pay labor just because they are showing goodwill by replacing the sink. It did not arrive damaged and Theresse did not do anything with her own hands to it. She made the precautions known to those who were to work on it. If they did not listen to directions, and the inevitable happened, well, then it is on them. They are lucky that Rohl is being more than honorable.

Marcolo,

Theresse did in fact get what she paid for: One sink install. That's what she got. It is exremely unfortunate that Rohl delivered a defective sink and I have nothing but sympathy for the her for being in this position. Her kitchen is one of my favorites! And I was so glad to see this area finished not that long ago.

Your position is that Rohl is only doing the right thing from a customer relations by replacing the sink. In my experience however companies don't claim they gave you a defective product when they do not. I can't see that as being good for their reputation. What would be good for their reputation is for them to say "It looks like the plumbing was over tightened and caused cracking. However, we understand that can happen and will gladly replace it for you for free." Instead they are admitting shipment of a defective product and leaving the door open to pay for a reinstall. I must assume that because they are saying it's defective and they are the manufacturer that it is in fact defective.

At this point the contractor has attempted to correct an install issue by the electrician. We know that it was installed incorrectly because it was leaking. The contractor says that while he was repairing the install he did not tighten it down. Rohl says the breaks were not caused by the tightening or by incorrect install.

At some point, you simply have to pick someone to trust. In this case the contractor says he didn't, Rohl says he didn't. Those people and companies who actually have knowledge and information agree it was not the contractors fault.

Personally, I haven't seen Theresse having a real problem with this guy so far and I have high hopes that she can go to him and say the TRUTH. That the company is willing to replace the sink because they believe it was their manufacture's defect and she may be able to go after them for a portion of the reinstall. However, theres still a possibility that the defect was triggered by either installing the GD incorrectly in the first place and the vibrations triggered the cracks or the repair of that installation and she would like to see them meet in the middle on a reinstallation.

heresse did in fact get what she paid for: One sink install.

No. She paid to have a sink installed correctly, without damaging it. If a contractor hacked off a corner of a cabinet smashing into place, you would argue the homeowner had no complaint?

In my experience however companies don't claim they gave you a defective product when they do not.

My experience differs. As does the experience of all Americans who watched the news while Priuses were accelerating out of control. As does the experience of all GWers who have read multiple issues about many products that were first passed off as one-off defects. A company would much rather claim an individual product was defective rather than admit an entire line of products have a fundamental flaw. Rohl knows all fireclay sinks are touchy to install. It does not want to emphasize this, obviously. It is in its interests to say this is a single, rare mistake.

Oh, and RH employees regularly cut you off when you're trying to explain a problem saying, "Return it, it's defective"--even if it's not necessarily their fault.

Nowhere does Rohl claim the contractor didn't overtighten. How would they know? All they've seen are pictures--which look like all the pictures of overtightened fireclay sinks we've seen posted here.

Please note that this contractor is a proven liar by virtue of the very title of this post!

No one said lie about anything. I said I wouldn't volunteer that the sink was being replaced and I doubt the contractor would ask who is paying for it. As far as the contractor is concerned, it doesn't really matter who is paying for the sink as long as it isn't him. He's just being asked to do the work he's asking to be paid for correctly and, if he's responsible for breaking it, he's getting a lucky break (no pun intended) this time. It should be fair to assume that he won't be so lucky a second time so he'd better get it right or call in someone who can.

The truth is that no one can really tell now whether the sink was properly fired, free if any variances outside of tolerances that should assure that a reasonably careful installer would not crack the sink without undue force being applied now that it is cracked. The forensic science it would take to try to determine any of that would be more expensive that the sink and I'm pretty sure the labor too. It is a known tender spot and I suspect they have a certain loss factor expected on them that is easier for them to deal with than making the sinks to avoid the issue or stop selling them.

Hi Dearests! :)

This is SO EMBARRASSING that EVERY DARNED TIME I get time to get on here and read, there's no time or I'm about to fall asleep (as is the case now - and I have to get up early)! I'm SURE I look like an opportunist just totally taking advantage of your advise, expertise and patience but please believe me that I simply have less time than I'm used to.

Thank you so much for continuing this dialogue. I've gone into the worst depression over this! I just want to turn this over to someone else to represent me who's capable/competent enough but there's no one (or I don't dare ask) and I can't afford a lawyer nor do I want to get that legal. My contractor came back into town last Wednesday, Jan. 19th, if he meant what he said about his schedule, and every day I hope I don't hear from him. I just can't deal with this and barely know how. I mean Rohl said I could have a new sink but if I order it, I'd have to have the old sink out first in order to know which sink will be close enough in measurement to fit into the spot. I don't want to go pick up a new sink and leave it sitting on the side lines for weeks or months and then find out too late in the game that it won't fit in the old spot! So that means I need to get the old sink out, which brings me back to square one. I need to find new contractors or carpenters to get quotes from and feel so low I can't imagine figuring out where to turn, who to ask...who to trust. And who will be willing, after that last guy said he basically won't touch it with a 10-foot pole. My contractor's going to probably show up any day now to "finish the work" and then I'm also told by friends that I should no way let him finish the work but should deduct that which needs to be deducted and then pay someone else with the money. But he could file a lien on my house or whatever the terminology is. On the other hand I may never see him again since I paid him a partial payment that he may figure is close enough...

Just to be clear:

1. My contractor bought the sink, not me. I mean I paid him sometime after that but he bought it using his own card. Not the dishwasher or counter or tile honing, cutting and installing which I bought, but the sink, faucet, disposal, flange and tile itself, yes. Now it's always possible he paid in cash and kept the whole order in my name since I had the items on hold in my name in which case there's no evidence he paid for it but who knows...

2. I truly believe that the sweet, young-sounding Rohl guy that I spoke to didn't really care and just called it defective for a couple of the reasons listed above by you guys but I do think if he has any experience at all (and he may not), that he suspects it was over-tightened and doesn't care - he just wants me to be a satisfied customer. My instincts and my own experience tell me so. And I don't think less of him or the company for it.

3. I have no proof that my contractor tightened the flange. I think it's possible that he didn't. But I don't think it's probable that he didn't. The timing of the cracks and the fact that no one else touched the area below it besides him and the way the hairline cracks splay out around the drain all tell me there's a better chance he cracked it than that he didn't. But it doesn't matter much if it can't be proven or that no forensic scientist - haha - will be coming around to pay more than the sink's worth to determine that.

As for the issue of lying, I think there's a lot of context here to be considered. I believe he cracked it, and that Rohl is giving me a new sink but knows that he cracked it. My contractor bought the sink and installed it and messed around with it cause he didn't want me to bother his precious plumber when the leak needed to be stopped (don't get me started on how he thinks so highly of this totally flaky and rude plumber) and then it cracked. I think that covering my ARSE after everything else that's gone down is let's just say a fairly reasonable choice at this point, even if some think of that as lying. I get it, but I think that when you believe what I believe about what's really happened, it's not quite the same thing. And even then, I'm still willing to compromise at least a little - just because I'm not a one-dimensional human being and I believe my contractor isn't either. In my favor, sure, I guess, though yes I'm still really super uncomfortable about this whole thing and am as curious as the rest of you to know how strong I'll be and how well or disastrously this whole thing will turn out before it's truly over!!

Ok that's it for now - it's 1:35 a.m. and I've gotta be up at 7:00. Yaaaay! ;) More soon. Thank you everyone - I am SO GRATEFUL that you're here. In fact you've been here "for me" more than just about anyone else, I swear!! That includes friends and family members and certainly contractors! How crazy is that!?

Hi Theresse --

I am a lurker and an infrequent one at that, but I checked in this morning and read your saga. I know nothing about sinks or flanges but I know plenty about having to think clearly under stressful circumstances, compounded by a lack of sleep. As hard as it is, you need to take control of the situation. Here is what I would do under these circumstances:

1. Be done with the contractor, at least as far as work is concerned. You have a reputable contractor telling you that the first guy's work was "amatuerish", so do you really want him to replace the sink, with all that could go wrong? The rest of the finishing work sounds like it could be done by a handyman.

I would not be waiting in dread for the contractor to show up. I would call him and say, "Look, you know there's a problem with the sink. I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with it and am in touch with Rohl. Plus I had someone else come in to look at the installation and he discovered other problems -- hidden shims, etc. [name them]. I have personal issues going on right now and so I am really not prepared to resolve this with you right now. In the meantime, I have to withhold the final payment to you because I'm just not sure what I'm dealing with here. I will call you when I know more." [BTW, how much do you owe him? Will it cover the labor for the new sink?]

2. Take a breather/buy some time. Do you have to deal with replacing the sink right away? Can you tell Rohl that you need the new sink but you'll need a few weeks or so to get someone in to remove the existing one?

3. When you are ready to move ahead with the new sink, call the reputable guy back. Say that you will sign a document releasing him from any liability for the install. Under ordinary circumstances I would never suggest such a thing, but at this point it's a question of risk assessment and I can't imagine you're going to be worse off than you are now. If he won't agree, push push push to get a referral. Does he know what you're dealing with right now?

4. Submit the quote, submit it to Rohl with the pictures and try to get the labor reimbursed.

5. Once you have your beautiful crack-free sink installed, you'll have complete information and will be able to go back to the first contractor. If you've gotten any reimbursement from Rohl, then you'll take that into account in dealing with him. You may decide that he's entitled to the whole balance due, or part of it, or none of it. But by then you'll have gotten sleep and will have more perspective.

Good luck!

Carol

I only have one thing to add, please get several estimates on the job if you end up going with another person to install the new sink. 2k sounds like an insane amount of money to rip out one sink and replace it with the same type of sink.

I suspect that costs more than the actual sink! Even with the issues you've talked about, that still makes me think someone saw an expensive sink and a possibly expensive kitchen and just assumed you could afford it. I would run the other way. Someone needs to cut that estimate in half or more.

WTH, Do not pay him until he is done 100% It sounds like he wants to go out of town and leave you hanging for a bit. Tell him you will pay him once you are satisfied with the end product. As the sink goes it could be a faulty sink. Contact ROHL and see if the have a rep that could come look at your sink. It could be that the contractor tightned the flange down to tight and caused the cracking, if that is the case he should file a insurance claim and get it replace ASAP.