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murrywoods

Builder wants to put in Trane XB16

murrywoods
9 years ago

Building a 1500 sq ft home in North Carloine. The Trane XB13 was the standard AC unit they installed. We paid extra ($2,000) for a higher SEER. They are wanting to put in the Trane XB16. After reading I believe all the XB models are builder grade. Would like to now put in the XR17. Input please one first is this the best choice. And how much more should we be paying (if anything) for the XR17. And one last question the XR17 is a two-stage, advantages of this over the single stage.

Comments (66)

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    For Ryan

    Murrells Inlet is just south of Myrtle Beach, SC and between MB and Georgetown, SC. An area I know quite well. Strictly a coastal environment. Most homes, condos, developments, etc have heat pumps and still believe this is the best choice for the location and climate especially for new construction. However if nat gas connection is available, then no more than the XV80 in the smallest size, 60 KBTU. Will be on low stage all the time except for the rare abnormal freeze.

    TD

  • weedmeister
    9 years ago

    Ditto on M Inlet. Great seafood. Mild winters. 35F would be extremely cold. Hot summers with high humidity. If this is a home with a lot of windows facing the ocean, this might explain the larger AC.

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  • ryanhughes
    9 years ago

    Thanks for the info -- a heat pump is definitely a good option here, or XV80 furnace (60k at most). There are also smaller furnaces available from Trane although not the XV80 model.

    This post was edited by ryanhughes on Sun, Aug 25, 13 at 12:11

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I hope you are out there
    Here are my choices. The XR16 AC with the XV80 furnace. This is 2.5 ton. I can go with a heat pump. This is what they offered, the XR17w TAM7 variable speed air handle and the Trane 903 thermostat. This would be 3 ton. We have already paid $2,000 for an upgrade. Your recommendations much appreciated. I think the builder thought I know what I was talking about. He asked if I was in the furnace business.

  • ryanhughes
    9 years ago

    Has a load calc even been performed and shown to you yet? While both are great equipment choices (don't know why they didn't offer the XR15 heat pump which comes in half-ton sizes), I want to know how they are determining what size equipment you need. A well constructed 1500 sqft home does not need large equipment to heat/cool it. Ask what the calculated heat loss/heat gain is (per Manual J 8).

    I think it's great you are investigating the HVAC design further and at the right time. It shows that you expect comfort and efficiency in your new home which you don't get with grossly oversized equipment. Many systems are oversized by convention using rules of thumb (for instance 1 ton per 500 sqft which is far from the norm nowadays). This is completely wrong. Good luck!

    This post was edited by ryanhughes on Wed, Aug 28, 13 at 0:08

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks much. He thought I wanted the xr17. And not knowing what was what I didn't comment. So maybe the better choice is the XR15 2.5 ton heat pump with the TAM7.

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I keep lookin trying to make the best decision here. would the XL16i be a better choice and does that come in 2.5 ton. Or would the xl15i be just as good. Would both be ok with the TAM7. Plus input on themostate. We need to decide by tomorrow at the latest.

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    I will assume you have now decided on a HP system.

    As far as sizing, the single stage models like XR15, XR16, and XL15i come in 1/2 ton increments while the two stage condensers are only available in full ton sizes.

    Ductwork and air handler will be located in attic? Minimum R8 insulation on all ductwork. I would want at the minimum 2 returns for best airflow and comfort.

    Thermostat should be no less than HW Mdl #8321 or Trane 803 .

    Has dealer performed a load calculation and given you a copy in writing?

    IMO

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thank you so much. Yes to HP. Yes ductwork and air handler in attic. I have asked for the load cal in writing. He said the 903 for themostat??? That is better than 803? For 2.5 I am thinking the xl15i is my best choice. Your suggestions. W the Tam 7

  • ryanhughes
    9 years ago

    The XL15i and TAM7 would be a fantastic system if you can work it out. Good on getting the load calc in writing -- I really would not be surprised (assuming your house has decent or better insulation/windows) if a 2 ton system can handle the entire house, but if you feel more comfortable with a 2.5 ton (and I can understand that), being a heat pump that probably wouldn't be considered grossly oversized (really need to know the load, however).

    He must have meant the TCONT803 thermostat.

    Tiger's comments on the ductwork insulation (supply and return) as well as number/location of returns are very pertinent and I would bring them up with the dealer/builder or both.

    Best of luck.

    This post was edited by ryanhughes on Wed, Aug 28, 13 at 11:47

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    I agree. All this sounds good to me if correctly sized.

    Anything about a filter media cabinet? I would recommend this.

    What size heat strip? Based on your location, I would think a 7-8 KW would be fine. Defrost cycles should be few and far between.

    IMO

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    If a 2 1/2 ton system, this is the configuration you would want.

    5021598 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5030B1 *AM7A0B30H21 950 31600 13.00 15.25 30000 9.20 18900 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 251 632 Yes

    IMO

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Wonderful news. I have the Manual J load. Total Heat gain 21,576 (2 ton) Total heat Loss 27,125. Sensible gain 16,229, latent gain 5,347
    Outdoor
    Summer 98
    Winter 26
    Summer grains of moisture 127
    I can really put in anything I want. I think we are going to go with the TAM7 Var Speed Air Handle. (If you agree)
    I canâÂÂt tell you how screwed we would have been without you. I asked about the insulation. Yes R8. But they ONLY usually put in ONE return for a house this size. (1557 sq ft) He will now put in two.
    Please what do you think for size 2, 2.5 or 3 ton. Also about going with the XR17 given the above. But then 2 or 3 ton.

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Nothing about the filter media cabinet but I will ask. Thanks

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    I would want a filter media cabinet.

    If load calc is correct, then a 2 ton XL15i would be just fine.

    I would want the TAM7 air handler 030 size for best numbers.

    A 7 KW heat strip would be fine.

    5020850 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5024B1 *AM7A0B30H21 835 24000 13.00 16.00 22600 9.00 13400 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 182 538 Yes

    IMO

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    This is so so helpful. One last I hope question. Opinion about the xr17 so we can have a two stage system.

  • ryanhughes
    9 years ago

    Your load calc indicates a 2 ton system would be appropriate and a 2.5 ton would be more than you need. What were the indoor design temperatures, and what do you keep your thermostat set to in both summer and winter?

    I would install a 2-ton XR17. You will get the comfort advantages that a PROPERLY sized two-stage system has to offer. This system should provide you many years of comfort and energy savings -- much more so than an oversized 3 ton system would have. I would pair with the TCONT803 thermostat, have Comfort-R dehumidification ramp-up profile enabled, and add a media filter cabinet as TD has mentioned.

    AHRI #5773514. 4TWR7024A1 outdoor unit and TAM7A0B30H21 air handler. This combination is rated at just above 2 tons (which is nominally 24,000 btu/h), actually. I've looked over Trane's extended performance data, and based on your load calc I think this system would be a great match that should have no trouble handling your sensible heat load (I'll attach the link below for you and TD to look at as well). Trane's 7.5 kw heater package is most likely sufficient to heat your home in the case that the entire heat pump system fails to work (the next size is 10 kW). You can discuss this with your dealer. If the 10 kW model is installed, it should be staged and believe it comes configured to operate as such from the factory...

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.trane.com/Commercial/Products/ARIRatings/ARISelect.aspx?ARIREF=5773514

    This post was edited by ryanhughes on Wed, Aug 28, 13 at 16:08

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    3labs

    I assume you are a lab lover as I am also.

    BTW, how close will this home be to the water? If close I would ask dealer about upgrade cost to Trane's seacoast shield.

    When you ask for opinions, you best be careful. Let me tell you about the differences between the two models. Besides the XR17 being two stage, the XLi condenser series has the proprietary plastic top and carries an extra two yrs on the compressor warranty. Be aware the BTU split output on the low and high stage of the XR17 is about 70/100. The proprietary top is helpful if condenser is located under trees as it minimizes problems with leaf trash and other debris. I would want to weigh the cost difference.

    Here are the AHRI efficiency/performance numbers for comparison.

    5773514 Active Systems XR17 TRANE 4TWR7024A1 *AM7A0B30H21 940 735 25800 13.00 17.00 25000 8.50 15200 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 184 570 Yes

    You get about 1800 more cooling BTUs, an extra point in SEER, not as good in HSPF heating efficiency. Depending on cost difference, I don't see much benefit.

    I would stay with the 7 KW heat strip.

    Dealer still intends to use the 900 series Trane stat?

    IMO

  • ryanhughes
    9 years ago

    I don't disagree with anything TD has said above, but just to clarify my earlier remarks: I was under the impression that at this point, the decision was up to you what equipment you wanted to go with. In that case, while I think you would be happy and comfortable with either system, I'll still cast my vote for the 2-stage XR17 unless the nice top that the XLi series feature is something that would be beneficial in your scenario. In that case as well, there is also the XL18i 2-stage model (very similar performance wise and system wise to the XR17). I'm not sure how far your options extend and what, if any beyond $2000, costs are associated with the changes.

    This post was edited by ryanhughes on Wed, Aug 28, 13 at 16:27

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    Ryan

    You and I are on same page. I am just a penny pincher by nature.

    Either is a great system though and the homeowner should be happy with either. Really two good options.

    I am jealous. Both of the systems and the location.

    I would love to see a couple of pix when installed.

    Take care...

    TD

  • ryanhughes
    9 years ago

    I too look forward to seeing how this all pans out. I think the HO has done all the right things, and yes -- whether the XR15, XL15i, XR17, or even XL18i is installed, this new home should be much more energy efficient and comfortable in both seasons by not going with the standard, oversized system. Proper sizing is important, and so is a proper installation -- hopefully the builder is working with a reputable and competent HVAC contractor. But I have received no bad vibes throughout this thread and have a good feeling the original poster is on the right path toward a great system. It is good to see that the builder & HVAC contractor have been upfront and willing to accept these valid suggestions for improvements.

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    First again thank you so much. So appreciative of all your advice. I just feel like we would have ended up with a very inefficient system and been so unhappy with it if not for both of yours advice.

    And yes, a lab lover. Lost one last year so down to 2 but will get another one in a year or so.

    Just to asked the few questions you asked
    The indoor design temps were
    Summer temp 73
    Winter temperature 70
    Relative humidity 55

    Actual we would kept it at
    Summer 74
    Winter day 72 night 65
    We are 3 miles from the ocean. There are no trees.

    Dealer said I can choose the thermostat. Should we go with the TCONT803???

    I will tell him everything here and then see what the price difference is and choose. I will let you know what we decide ok.

    Most definitely will post pictures for you ok. We will be here the rest of the week and then wonâÂÂt be back until the house is finished, about 6 weeks. This is our retirement home so again a huge thank you to a most comfortable home.

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    3labs

    I would follow up with dealer on the following:

    1.Of course the system whether the XL15i or XR17. You have the information to make an informed decision.

    2.the Trane seacoast shield for the condenser. I am not an expert in this area as I don't live in a coastal environment. Coastal environments keep HVAC companies busy. Trane condensers hold up better in this environment than any other brand. It is my understanding they have a seacoast shield that can be added to the condenser. This is worth a conversation with your dealer. I would be interested in what he has to say about this subject.

    3. On the thermostat, I think you must ask yourself what you are looking for. Do you want wireless Internet connectivity? Do you want dehumidify on demand feature for AC cooling? Will you have any auxiliary equipment like humidifier. Any equipment for fresh air exchange?

    My top choice would be HW VP IAQ Prestige model. There is one that has Internet connectivity. Trane 900 series, and last Trane 803 or identical equivalent Mdl HW VP Mdl 8321 that has overcooling feature.

    You want RH in your home to be below 50 not 55. This is a big deal.

    Good LucK!
    IMO

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    This the outdoor unit that he has gotten. It was delivered and sitting in garage. TAM7AOA24H21SB

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    3Labs

    If you look at the AHRI matching numbers on both the XL15i and XR17 you will see it should be the 30 size to get the best performance/efficiency numbers available. Dealer should know this. He might say I am quibbling but details like this matter to me. See below.

    5020850 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5024B1 *AM7A0B30H21 835 24000 13.00 16.00 22600 9.00 13400 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 182 538 Yes

    5773514 Active Systems XR17 TRANE 4TWR7024A1 *AM7A0B30H21 940 735 25800 13.00 17.00 25000 8.50 15200 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 184 570 Yes

    For either system and if this was my home, I would insist on it. He can exchange. Yes, an extra trip.

    IMO

  • ryanhughes
    9 years ago

    I agree -- have him exchange that air handler with the TAM7A0A30H21SB. Should be no trouble at all. The 24 is not the correct or approved size to use with the 2-ton XR17. If kept, the XL15i is the only option, and with slightly reduced capacity/efficiency as TD mentioned.

    This post was edited by ryanhughes on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 17:15

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    What would I do without either of you. Sent off my email to builder. Do not install that unit. Going over first thing in the morning. Will keep you posted.

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I forgot to mention the other box. It was the electric heater?
    This was the model number on the box BAYEVC08LGIAA

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    Appears to be the heat strip which should be fine. 7-8 KW. OK

    Should be a small box.

    What did dealer have to say about seacoast shield?

    IMO

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Update. They took the 24 back and are bringing over the 30. Is this the correct evaporator coil? 4TXCB031BCHCB. I have a call about the in the seacoast shield to the HVAC guy. Question is the sea coast shield an actual shield they put on or something they do at factory to the unit?

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Update. They took the 24 back. Bringing over the 30. Is this the right evaporator? 4TXCB031BC3HCB

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    The evap coil will be part of the air handler that you are swapping and don't be concerned about its model number, just the model number of the air handler Ryan and I listed for each HP condenser. That's the number you want to verify.

    And which system did you decide to go with?

    IMO

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    The right air handler was installed yesterday. Everyone is off until Tuesday, so nothing else will happen. I am now waiting for the price of the two units. Again, I don't know what we would have done without your beyond words advice with everything.

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    Take a break for a long weekend!...

    You have two good choices.

    Still would like to know more about the seacoast shield and its cost.

    IMO

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I am back.... Hope you weekend was relaxing. Here is where I am. HVAC guy just called. He asked if I knew about the CleanEffect and when on about how you don't have to replace the filter etc. The cost for the media cabinet is $300 and the CleanEffect is $1,049. I don't know why he is suggesting it and just not giving my what I have asked for. I just read a little about it and did not seem impressed. Your thoughts.
    He said the XL15i would be $500 more thatn the XR17. The that was because he buys the XR17 in volume and he gets a better price. He doesn't put in many XL15i's and won't get a volume discount. That seems resonable.
    But here is my dilemma:
    The builder puts in XB 13 ac and XB80 gas furance. We paid $2,000 for an upgraded SEER. But that was all that was discussed.
    So now I have the TAM7 2.5 air handler and going with the XR17 (thank you so much)
    But I don't know what the cost of these are over the cost of the XB13 ac and XB 80 gas furance. At least I have a cost for the media filter.

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    I would have the Trane Perfect Fit Media cabinet over the Clean Effects. Filter lasts up to one yr before changeout is necessary. You can buy lots of filters for the price difference, Changeout is easy. Cabinet is made to fit sit handler like a glove to a hand.

    No way XL15i costs more than XR17. Dealer is steering you. But typical on new construction. He wants you to have the XR17. Either are fine. It's only money.

    Anything on the seacoast shield? Hoping to get informed a bit on this subject but don't have confidence I could get a straight answer from your dealer.

    IMO

    This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, Sep 3, 13 at 14:49

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks Tigerdunes. Yes, I have no confidence in the dealer what so ever. I am just beyond frustrated at this point. Going to go with the XR17 and the Perfect Fit Media cabinet. Hopefully tomorrow will be the last day of going back and forth over this.
    I did ask him about the seacoast shield. He said he only installs those in homes that are within a few blocks of the ocean. We are about 3 miles from ocean. And it wasn't needed. Sorry it isn't better info for you.
    I want to go with the HW VP IAQ Prestige model, w/o the internet connectivity. Do you have an exact model number so I can tell him?
    This is the email I am drafting to send

    We want the XR17 2 ton
    AHRI #5773514. 4TWR7024A1 outdoor unit
    Have Comfort-R dehumidification ramp-up profile enabled
    Trane Perfect Fit Media cabinet
    Thermostat ?

    Thanks,

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    I hope Ryan sees this. Better thermostat person than I am.

    I suppose HW VP IAQ prestige model, no internet connectivity. This gives you dehumidify on demand but with two stage condenser like the XR17, not sure if this is worth it since this would be the primary feature you would get.

    A less expensive choice would be HW VP Mdl 8321.

    One or the other.

    3 miles from ocean is a harsh coastal environment.

    IMO

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thank you much. HVAC person so dismissed the seacoast shield when I asked him. I will wait a little before sending off email to see if Ryan is around.

  • ryanhughes
    9 years ago

    Wish I could have gotten to this sooner.

    The HW IAQ models can do dehumidify on demand, which is a nice feature as it reduces blower speed to 80% to improve dehumidification when humidity is above set point. Not all installers are familiar with setting this up, although it isn't difficult if instructions are read. The previous touchscreen IAQ model I'm familiar with is model YTH9421. Not sure about the exact Prestige model number off-hand. For simplicity, like TD I might just recommend the Honeywell TH8321 (or Trane XL803, same thing) with overcooling to dehumidify enabled (installer selects 1-3 deg overcooling limit), along with the Comfort-R function of the air handler. With a properly sized 2-stage system, Comfort-R enabled, and this (or another) thermostat controlling humidity, you should have a very comfortable home. Comfort-R will run the blower at 50% for one minute, then 80% for 7.5 minutes, and then 100% if needed to satisfy the cooling demand. It works well to further moisture removal in most climates. Even with dehumidify on demand, you would still be overcooling to dehumidify in many cases. Just different control approaches. I don't think you'll go wrong either way, since you'll already have a properly sized system that should dehumidify very well.

    This post was edited by ryanhughes on Tue, Sep 3, 13 at 23:52

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Ryan thank you again. I will ask for the HW TH8321 since I can see them setting up the HWIAQ model incorrectly. This is what I am going with. (Numbers correct on the unit??)

    XR17 2 ton
    AHRI #5773514. 4TWR7024A1 outdoor unit
    Have Comfort-R dehumidification ramp-up profile enabled
    Trane Perfect Fit Media cabinet
    Honeywell TH8321 (or Trane XL803, same thing), with overcooling to dehumidify enabled.
    Installer selects 1-3 degrees overcooling limit along with Comfort-R function of the air handler.

    A question??????? TD said we want the RH in home to be below 50 not 55. Does the HVAC guy need to set it at 50. Just wanted to be sure to tell him if it is something they need to do on the air handler

  • ryanhughes
    9 years ago

    Once the installers set up/enable the dehumidification mode on the thermostat, you will be able to set your desired indoor %RH from there. The thermostat will attempt to balance temperature and humidity control, based on indoor conditions and the allowed overcooling limit.

    Just curious --- how close are we to the actual start-up and final installation of the equipment? I assume by this point most of the rough-in has been done as far as ductwork, refrigerant lines, electrical, etc.

    This post was edited by ryanhughes on Wed, Sep 4, 13 at 12:04

  • pbx2_gw
    9 years ago

    @ 3labs -
    I have a similar system & setup as yours: my XR16 which is now called your XR17 & a TAM8 vs. your TAM7.

    Ryan helped me figured out that my Comfort-R ramp profiles & overcooling to dehumidify was NOT set-up.

    So Iam very interested how you do this - as my experience is that after they install the system - it's hard to get them to acknowledge anything.
    So you will have it in writing vs. my install as part of a builder process sight unseen.

    My only advice is to have them come out & go over everything on your list & train you on how to use the thermostat the way you want it. I didn't get either & am only now learning from strangers like Tiger & Ryan.

    Good luck & please update us!

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hi Ryan
    Yes, all the ductwork, refrigerant lines, electrical, have been done. They are ready to sheetrock in a day or two. I have not given them the final unit information. Sending that off tonight.
    So glad I waited to send. Thanks pbx2 for suggestion. I am including in my email that HVAC guy needs to come to site and review everything that he has done per my requests and review how to use the thermostat the way I want it.
    Tiger and Ryan have been beyond helpful. I can't tell you how stressed I have been over this the past week. And just sick over how things may have gone if not for them.
    Will keep everyone updated as we move forward.

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    pbx2 I have a question. Would you mind sharing the price of just the units, the XR16 and TAM8. I so need a rough idea of what the units cost. I have lost all confidence in the builder and want to be prepared when he tells him what it is going to cost me.
    Thanks

  • pbx2_gw
    9 years ago

    @3labs - I'm sorry I didn't see your note earlier but I also regret to say I don't have that exact information as our house was build/purchase with not that type of detail documented.

  • murrywoods
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks. I am going to send out a new post too see about prices on the units.

  • PaulLandryNO
    8 years ago

    I received a price to install 2 trane xb16 units for $7200. but i would prefer to install 2 trane xr15. Can someone please tell me aprexmently how much more I should expect to pay.
    please help

  • RSW136
    8 years ago

    I;m looking at replacing my 2 AC units at my home. The ones that I have are about 10 yrs old and with the Texas heat they are not cooling what they used to and are freccuently having to be repaired. My house is about 4700 sq ft. 2 stories What would you suggest and what size , or do you have a different suggestion.

  • tigerdunes
    8 years ago

    This thread is a year old.

    It is considered bad forum etiquette to hyjack onto someone else's thread.

    Go to main page, bottom of page and start your own thread.

    Easier to follow and you will get better advice.

    I will not answer any hijacked threads.

    IMO