I had decided to try Persil due to the people here that use it and say how great it is. When I called to order it at ABT the guy asked if I have a Miele or an Asko washer and I said No. He then told me I would be as well off using Tide HE and that I would save some money and laughed,so I didn't buy it.I posted about this here and received several follow-up. If you are interested in that it was "Is Persil only for European washers". BTW I have a Maytag F/L washer. Could it be because ours uses more water they think the Persil will not work as well? You could try it and see how you like it. I have seen others here that have Maytags and Whirlpool/Kenmores that use it also.The way the guy talked to me there was just no big difference in it and the Tide but I understand the Persil rinses out much better.

Thanks Sparky. I'll read the other thread. The guy mentioned something about the amount of water the American machines use.

I've used Tide HE with good results, but get even better results with Bi-O-Kleen. With just 1 tablespoon per load. I tried it on a whim because I didn't like the scent left on my clothes from the other detergents I had tried. Then I started looking at the Tide ingredient list and it contains some pretty nasty stuff (sulfonated benzene salts) that I don't care to have in my laundry. I'm not big on "green" but if you are, Bi-O-Kleen scores well there. I own a Bosch 500, which should be similar in water usage to your machine.

Thanks Alice. Does the Bi-O-Kleen leave NO scent, or just a DIFFERENT scent?

I could read the ingredient list on the Tide box 100 times and not have any idea whether the stuff in it is good bad or indifferent, which is why I asked in the first place. What, for example, is the negative to sulfonated benzene salts (it sure sounds bad)?

I don't detect any scent on my clothing. The detergent has a grapefruit scent, but rinses completely as far as I can tell. They do have a free and clear variety as well, but I haven't tried it so can't tell you how it works.

The problem with sulfonated benzene salts (Linear Alkyl Benzene Sulfonic Acid, Sodium Salt is the one in Tide HE) are three-fold: 1) They are strong irritants, 2) They take a long time to break down, 3) When they do break down, they turn into sulfates, alcohols, phenols, and a variety of other stuff that are solvents (penetrate plant/animals easily) at best and mild to moderate poisons at worst. I don't like the idea of having it in my septic system. The chemical is listed as safe, but not because it has been determined to be safe - there has been NO determination at all (that I could find), listed as "data gap" insufficient to evaluate.

Where did you find the list of ingredients in the Tide? My box only says biodegradable anionic surfactants and enzymes.How does the ingredient list for Tide H E compare to the list for the Persil?

I also have the Bio Kleen Premium powder. I like it also.It has a citrus like smell but then that is gone after the rinses.

I looked at the MSDS sheet. The Persil MSDS sheet does not provide the chemical names, which I find interesting - it just lists anionic and nonionic surfactants. Other detergents listed on the same site, however, list the same ingredients as the Tide. MSDS sheets don't list all ingredients, however, only the ones they are required to list.

This is from the Henkel German website:

Persil Megaperls:

Ingredients declaration according to Detergent Regulation ((EC) No 648/2004)
 Zeolite
 Sodium carbonate peroxide
 Sodium Dodecylbenzenesulfonate
 TAED
 Aqua (water)
 Sodium lauryl sulfate
 Sodium carbonate
 C12-18 Fatty alcohol 7 EO
 Sodium sulfate
 Sodium citrate
 Sodium Acrylic Acid/MA Copolymer
 Cellulose gum
 PEG-80
 Tetrasodium etidronate
 Sodium soap C16-18
 Methyl hydroxyethylcellulose
 Protease
 Polyethylene terephthalate
 Perfume
 Heptasodium DTPMP
 Paraffin
 C12-18 Fatty alcohol 5 EO
 Amylase
 Sodium hydroxide
 Sodium chloride
 Optical Brightner
 Cellulase
 Sodium glycolate
 HEXYL CINNAMAL
 LINALOOL
 BENZYL SALICYLATE
 Dye

Here is a link that might be useful: Listings for other Henkel/ Persil products (German)

Interesting. Thanks for posting the ingredients list. Most of these chemicals, on their own, would require great big warning labels. The regulations change, however, when you start mixing a bunch of different things. Now the quantities are small enough that labels aren't required, but for political, Not necessarily safety reasons.

Good lord look at that ingredient list!

dmlove, I too LOVE LOVE LOVE my Bi-O-Kleen Premium powder. Tide HE was my product of choice prior to trying Bi-O-Kleen. Bi-O-Kleen Premium gets out what Tide HE left in, and it's a totally natural, biodegradable, green product that is concentrated and packaged smaller, more resource efficient boxes.

Bi-O-Kleen Powder comes in two versions -- regular and premium. Only the premium contains enzymes, which help A LOT in getting your clothes clean. The highest rated detergents contain enzymes. Bi-O-Kleen's laundry products do not contain water softeners, however, so your experience with the product may vary if you have hard water. I have a whole house softener, so I don't need any of my cleaning products to contain softeners or "sequestrants" as they are also known.

I highly recommend Bi-O-Kleen if you want a great detergent and a clean environmental conscience! :)

Most of these chemicals, on their own, would require great big warning labels.

Well, I don't know about "most" - most of these are pretty innocuous, not just the obvious ones like sodium chloride, but also the mysterious ones like linalool (a plant oil extract). Emulsifying surfactants like sulfonated benzine salts appear in virtually all detergents, if they do not either (a) oils are dealt with another way, for example by a solvent, which is arguably harsher - even if it is a 'natural' solvent like citrus oil, or (b) some kind of oily dirts (especially petroleum oils) won't get clean.

Ingredients are put into detergents for obvious functional reasons - for example, DTPMP is a scale inhibitor, which is common in European detergents because of the heating element in most European machines. Now, probably not having this is not a problem for most of us in the US, but I don't think companies should be faulted for addressing the needs of their customers the best way they know how!

Honestly, I'm NOT a 'better living through chemistry' kind of guy; we like simple solutions for laundry problems (Fels soap, pine oil, hot water), and when I worked for the US EPA 25 years ago people made fun of me for wanting to don the space suit for the most innocuous spills. I just think that in the grand scheme of things, the chemical composition of Persil is not a big concern except for those very few people who have a specific allergy to particular ingredients. - DR

Based on several people's experience with Bi-O-Kleen I want to give it a try. Where do you typically find it for sale? Haven't seen it in any of the small health food stores so far, nor in the mega stores like Whole Foods (although Whole Foods does sell other Bi-O-Kleen products).

The other thing I've been trying to find without success is "Rain Drops" water softener which contains sodium citrate.

I get mine from Drugstore.com - it's the least expensive and arrives within a week. If you go to the Bi-O-Kleen website, they have a listing of all of the online place you can purchase their products. Many of the places list a physical address as well so you may be able to find one in your area.

You can find Bi-O-Kleen and other great products at Kokopelli's Green Market.

I'm pretty sure I saw Raindrops at a St. Paul-area Rainbow supermarket. Rainbow is run by Roundy's out of Wisconsin; does that help at all?

The SA8 Product is hypo-alergenic, has no clay for fillers as the other detergents listed here do - completely bio-degradable, does not break down clothes as quickly, and we have tried most of the detergents listed and believe SA8 is the best.

SA8 contains phosphates, so is hardly biodegradable. (Unlike clay, which by definition is already biodegraded!) Can you document your statement about "the other detergents listed here"?

The link below is interesting. - DR

Here is a link that might be useful: Are Amway cleaners safe?

The SA8 Plus is the one with the phosphates and it has been discontinued. The SA8 with Bioquest is the one they have now.My box says"Contains the Bioquest cleaning system which incorporates biodegradable surfactants,biological enzymes,and a natural water softener produced from renewable resources". It does clean very well.

BTW I am not associated with Quixtar. Just like the powder detergent.

Ok, I was fooled by the download at quixtar.com listing states where SA8 is illegal. In the absence of an ingredients list it is difficult to judge a claim like emeraldroad's "has no clay for fillers as the other detergents listed here do," and in any event I have no beef with clay or other inert fillers/builders. Maybe emeraldroad didn't register today just to plug a product, in which case he or she can explain whatthe heck (s)he's talking about.

There are of course other reasons why environmentally conscious people might want to avoid Amway products, though that's an issue best left for politics forums. - DR

I checked the ingredients list on my box of Bi-O-Kleen Premium and I don't see anything about clay. It's easy to make a blanket statement but not back it up with facts.

Bi-O-Kleen Premium ingredients: Natural protein digesters from fermentations, sodium percarbonate, soda ash, citrate, surfactants from coconut and/or corn, grapefruit seed and pulp extract, orange peel extract, sodium sulfate, zeolites, low pH silicates, chelators from vegetable fiber.

She may be using the term "clay" to describe zeolites, which is hardly accurate. They can be naturally occurring or synthetically derived, and are not used as filler.