I can't comment on FL since I'm still using a TL, but I will support your statement about dried-out detergent and/or fabric softener.

A few years ago I got a used Inglis TL, which worked (and still works) but there was a bad smell to it. I took off the FS dispenser (mounts on the top of the agitator) and inside it was just covered in dried, sticky, FS. After a lot of scrubbing by us, and later by the seller, we were able to get rid of it. It smells much better now! We don't need to clean it regularly because we don't use FS and use liquid Tide dumped right into the washer. We also replaced the drain hoses, they smelled too but more rubbery than anything.

I also have a used Sears TL set (not sure if it's Kenmore, Beaumark, or even Simpsons-Sears) which gets little use and also came used. It has a lot of crap stuck to the _outside_ of the outer drum (I can see it between the steel cabinet and the drum). We cleaned out as much as possible without taking off the cabinet, it doesn't seem to be hurting anything but I wondered where I came from. I could only think from suds spilling over, even with my use of 2x concentrated Tide (He compatible maybe) and not putting it right under the incoming water, I still get lots of suds when the basket is completely full.

Anyway, it's probably not the only reason for smelly FLs (I've seen stories of at least one where the drain holes in the gasket weren't at the bottom, so water was guaranteed to sit) but I think it's reasonable to wash out the drawer every couple of months (as I would with the TL if I used FS).

=aw

andreww, your certainly right about the scud that builds up in a top loader on the outer basket. I too have seen this when I had one. I used to fill it empty with hot water, let it agiatate till it was ready to drain, shut it off and then let the hot water soak over night in it. You would be surprised as to what u see the next day. Its kind of like this, if you use a bathroom shower daily and dont clean it, what happens to it?? Soap scum, mold and mildew,bad smell, and that not because it is in a air tight environment. Thats soap that is not washed down the drain.

I agree about warm and especially hot washes being good for the machine (and good for getting stuff clean). But you have to remember, gates1, that current FL's are different from your 9-year-old model. Many if not most current heater-equipped FL's don't use the heater to guarantee the water temperature, except on the sanitary cycle. So if the machine fills with mostly cold water even on the "hot" setting (because it's far from the water heater, and the water runs cold for a long time), it'll be warm, at best, by the time the wash cycle ends.

Suburbanmd, thats goos news to know. Its a good thing Maytags Steam Fl internal heater does heat the water in The Normal, casual, heavy duty, whites and power wash cycles according to the owners manual. It sounds a lot like my washer, only I dont have steam.

I don't doubt that it heats the water in all the cycles you mentioned. But on which cycles will it extend the wash portion, if necessary, to allow time for the water to reach the target temperature?

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.maytag.com/assets/product/MHWE550WJ_Use%20and%20Care_EN.pdf

As far as softener goes, one thing that I've started doing is diluting my fabric softener in a cup with warm water before adding it to the dispenser. If I try to pour water on top of it after I have already put it into the dispenser, some of it still sticks to the dispenser. Being that fabric softener is made from oil, it stands to reason that if it doesn't get completely mixed and diluted with water before it reaches the drum, that some of it could stick and build up along the journey. When I don't dilute it, I have to clean out the dispenser, but never when I dilute. I can see how fabric softener could really cause a lot of build up in a machine....especially with the use of cold water. If you've ever tried to rinse an oily pan with cold water it doesn't work very well!

Suburbanmd, did you miss this part in the owners manual:

Heating Element

This washer has a heating element to heat the water to optimal temperatures on select cycles.This enables stepped cleaning, a process in which warm water in brought in and mixed with detergents first,then the water is heated. Stepped cleaning starts the wash cycle to help removed stains (such as blood and grass) The heateer is active in Whitest whites, Normal/Casual, and power wash cycles.

Did I miss read something when it says it heats to Optimal tempatures? Meaning it takes the water to the tempatures for the selected cycle.

Funny thing is, the Whirpool Duet is its cousin, and the owners manual mentions nothing of the heaters function as in detail as the Maytag. The Maytag Bravos, also has the Clean boost with heat that works in most cycles too, as clearly stated in the owners manual, and yes it does say that it will add time to the wash.

I am sure the Duet operates the same as the maytag, they just do not mention it. Good example, in my owners manual, there is not mention that if I wash on the silk,Ultra hand wash cycles in my machine, that it almost doubles the water for wash and rinse. It doesnt even mention it in the Sears employee training manual that I got from a employee prior to purchasing my machine.

It seems to me that owners manual do not contain all the information about how a HE machine operates, mainly the water level for each cycle, much less when or when the heater in activated. This is sad on the manufactures part, because it could be used as a selling point also. So far, I have read the owner manuals for the Steam LG, Steam Electrolux wave touch, Whirlpool duet, and Samsung W448, None of them mention that the heater is used other than in the sanitar cycle and if that is honestly true, then I wouldnt waste my money buying any of these products. If I wanted to wash my clothes in cool, or warm water at best, and I cant get a "true" hot wash, then I dont need to spend 1300-1700 dollars to do it. I did read in one of these manuals, and I think it was the Maytag FL, that when the steam is used, the washer fills with even less water during the wash. My guess is the steam once it condensates will add water to the drum (I am sure that will go over real well with people), and yes it adds time to the cycle.

What I didnt know, it the top of the line Duets now spin at a max of 1400rpm, I love that, the newest model from Maytag FL didnt mention a top spin speed, but its my guess that it is the same. The newest model is not what you see on the website advertisment, you have to look for it. I sure would like to be able to see the owners manual for the New Kenmore fromt loaders made by LG!! All I know is the max spin is 1300rpm and I am not paying sears to download a copy of it, I will go to sears and ask to see it in person.

Personally I think ALL He machine should come with a DVD explain how to use the machine and include how to load it with each load. Some manual are better than other in explaining how to do loads to avoid wrinkles, meaning no cotton shirts mixed with blends. One manufactures tell you to do jeans seperate, and I agree. They wash great and when put in the dryer, dry evenly. If you have a cotton blend in there, it will be over dried and WRINKLE!

On a personal note: I have always been facinated with washers and how they work. By the time I was 6yr I knew how to wash clothes, mom taught me well. She had to fly home to Germany, her father passed away. My dad got so sick of hearing me tell him how to wash clothes cause he didnt do it like mom did, that he finally told me to just do it by myself and he will help me fold it. Dad was clueless, and just mixing everything up and trying to wash it. Mom got a great kick out and told my dad...well I guess I taught my son right and you could learn something from him.

I read the same thing you read, but I'm interpreting it more skeptically.

"This heater is active in the Whitest Whites, Heavy Duty, Normal/Casual, and Power Wash cycles" just says the heater is active on those cycles. It doesn't say those are the "select cycles" in which it heats to the "optimum temperature". And what is the optimum temperature anyway? The manual doesn't give the temperature corresponding to Warm or Hot. That would worry me.

In the "Cycle Too Long" item in the Troubleshooting section, look at this entry:

Did you choose the Whitest Whites cycle?
The heater will be activated to provide maximum cleaning performance. Additional time will be added to the regular cycle to heat the water. This additional time will depend on the load size and the hot water inlet temperature.

If that's the only cycle to which the washer will add additional time to heat the water, then it doesn't guarantee temperatures in the other cycles, right? The other cycles could finish the wash portion before the water is heated enough.

Sorry, I've been very skeptical of water heating claims since my LG experience.

The other brands you mention may run the heater in cycles other than sanitary, but end the wash portion at the scheduled time, regardless of whether the water has reached a target temperature. There was a very long thread on automaticwasher.org about Electrolux, in which someone who used to work for Electrolux described that very behavior in the US Electrolux models.

When you read the other owner's manuals, did you look for a actual temperatures corresponding to cold, warm, and hot? I remember Samsung saying that hot is something like "105F-120F", which gives them a lot of leeway to provide a pretty poor "hot" wash.

Suburbanmd....you lost me on the cycles and heating. The active cycles are the same thing as select cycles. The manual is telling you that the heater will boost the water temp if needed, there is no question about that. If you look at the control panel on the manual, there is a line under some of these cycles to indicate that you can use the stream option, but the line is not under the power wash cycle, though the manual says steam can be used on that cycle too. As far as the cycle too long goes, Whites Whites will be a hot wash by default, so if the incoming water is less than 120F and/or its a full load it going to take more time for the washer to reach its optimal wash temp. Whirlpool FL's with heaters heat on that cycle to 130F warm wash is 104F and cold is 77F If your doing a warm wash the ATC will get you as close as it can to 104F before it stops filling and then the heater will either maintain it or boost if needed, as the water temp will drop after it hits the clothes and cold drum. One thing to remember is Manufactures try to keep these book short and sweet, as they know most people do not read half of what is written in them anyway, so why add something else that most buyers will feel in irrevelavant. I even find typos in these books and such, so no one is proof reading them for much accuracy either. What happen with you LG that makes you so skeptable about heaters and when they work?? Maytag has done an outstanding job of explaining what cycles the heater is being used. I did see those Tempatures ranges in the Samsung manual and they stink, not to mention its 900 watt heater.

Here's my LG story. Apologies for very long post.

Needed new washer in Aug 2008, and decided to go front-loader, chose LG. I have very long hot-water lag, and no faucet to fully flush the pipes to the washer. So I knew I needed a machine that'll heat the water for as long as necessary. Sent the following question to LG customer service:

Regarding the LG washers with water heater feature: Does it heat the water for warm and normal hot washes if necessary, or is it used only for super-hot cycles?

Here's the answer in its entirety, omitting only the courtesies:

The heater operates on every cycle except tap cold, IF the water temperature is not the optimum for the wash setting. At any cycle including sanitary, water valves supply cold water to protect wash load damage by hot water, water valves supply hot water or cold water to reach target temperature at each cycle, then if the water temperature does not reach the target temperature even though hot water was supplied, the heater turns on. The built-in water heater in the washer assures that incoming water is the correct temperature to optimize cleaning performance. Most laundry detergents must be activated at certain temperatures to work correctly. We use thermisters (electronic thermostats that have a high degree of accuracy) to detect incoming water temperatures. The 1000-watt heater adjusts the incoming water to ensure superior thermal action performance. The function of the heater when the "Cold" setting is selected is utilized in areas in which, for example the winter climate decreases the normal temperature of the water coming directly from the tap. The heater will raise this temperature in order to provide and maintain optimal cleaning action. The built-in heater will work on any setting to ensure the correct temperature of the wash, except for the "Tap Cold" setting. The "Tap Cold" setting provides water directly from the tap, with no temperature adjustment.

Was also concerned about "dumbed-down" wash temperatures. My concerns were satisfied by the online manual for the particular model, which had a box specifying the wash temperatures. Something like 100F for Warm and 120F for Hot.

When the machine arrived, first thing I noticed was that the wash temp box had been omitted from the printed manual, which was otherwise pretty much the same (Except that sanitize temp, on a different page, had gone down from something like 167F to 158F, can't swear to the exact numbers. Minor disappointment, not a major concern).

Didn't have a Kill-A-Watt meter and instant-read thermometer at the time, so can't be very specific about what the machine did when I tried a hot wash. But it clearly wasn't doing what I expected. First, it was filling from both cold and hot taps, even though the water from the hot tap was barely warm. Second, when I paused right before draining and felt the water, it wasn't hot. Not sure if it was warmer than the initial temperature. The heater hardware was not defective, because a sanitize cycle heated up fine.

Called up Sears, and spoke to someone who, I now realize, probably didn't have model-specific info. But she was used to getting calls from customers complaining about wash temps, and explained that warm could be as low as 75F. Don't remember what she said about hot.

Called LG customer service, and was told that temp wasn't assured on hot washes. Emailed LG customer service, with the following question, accompanied by their first answer:

A couple of weeks ago I asked a question, through this online form, about the water heater in LG washers. Below is the reply I received, containing the answer and my original question. Relying on this answer, I bought a WM2455H from Sears. It was delivered today, and doesn't appear to be heating the water when the wash temperature is set to Hot. I just called customer service on the phone, and was told that the heater does NOT assure the Hot water temperature on this model. This is entirely unsatisfactory. The washer's low water usage, combined with heat loss in the pipes from the domestic water heater to the washer, mean that the washer will never fill with 120 degree water, and so will never perform a legitimate hot wash. Also, heat transfer from the water to the load will further reduce the temperature of the wash. Since the machine is equipped with a heater, why isn't it used to assure the temperature on all settings, as described in LG's answer to my original question? This is quite a disappointment, since the machine seems very good in other aspects, based on my few hours' experience with it tonight.

Here's the answer, from the same customer service rep who answered the first time:

As previously explained in the email the heater maintains the water temperature in the temperature that it should be but it also depends on the setting and the house's water itself.

So that's my LG story. I assume that customer service's first answer was mistakenly based on old info...their machines used to work that way, and had changed recently. From what I've read since then, LG isn't alone in reducing heater use, and dumbing down temperatures. I'd be happy to hear that Whirlpool has defied the factors (Energy Star tax credits?) pushing other manufacturers in that direction. But like I said, I'm skeptical. Just looked at the online manual for the top-of-line Whirlpool Duet, and it doesn't specify wash temperatures. I don't think they're omitted to simplify the manual, I think it's because they want to be free to lower the temperatures to suit their interests.

Suburbanmd, sorry to hear about your dissappointment in the LG. I wish I knew which model my parents have in the LG line. I know it has a heater in it. With the landry room at the other end of the house, I seriously doubt they get much hot water in the wash. My parents have been exptreamly pleased with the results of the machine. Sorry I cant be more specific on the performance of it.

Like I said in a previous post, I too read the Whirlpool duet book, and there is no mention of the cycles that use the heater like it cousin maytag. Somewhere online I read that since most people could care less about what cycles use the heater, that they dont post it, except for the sanitary cycle. Duets qualify for energy tax credits as my friends have recieved them. After all, I really do not think that it takes a lot of electricity to use the 1000 watt heater for such a small amount of water. Most hair blow dryers use more electricity as considering they go as high as 1800 watts. One good thing about buying from sears, you can return it within 30 days if you do not like it. I know it is a pain, but I would do it if needed. I emailed Electrolux to see if I can get some more info on the heater use of the wave touch, lets see what I get for a response.

Today, I had to fix my friends Maytag toploader, incoming cold water issue. Anyway, this washer is from the mid to late 90's. The fabric softener dispenser is n top of the agitator, so when the washer goes into spin after the wash, the softener is forced out of the top container, down into the middle of the agitator...Well his was not working that way because the tube in the middle of the agitator was clogged with previous doses of fabric softener. To the average owner, like my friend, they would not be aware of this problem, because the machine can and will spin that cup of softener out and all over the inside of the washer. Here's my point, the FS sytem is designed to work by adding FS to the cup, then add water to it ( how many people do that) so when the washer goes into spin after the wash cycle, the FS is forced inside of the agitator down the tube and released at the bottom of the Spiral part of the agitator. This prevents spotting on clothes, plus keeps the softenere off the sides of the drum that are never submerged in water to begin with. The center tube was clogged up....with algae, and gummy softener that has never been dissolved or dispensed into the water. My friend does warm and hot washes 95% of the timem so cold water washes are no factor here in keeping the center tube clean, as when the tube is filled with water, that tube is filled too, untill the drum is drained. My point is...it doesnt matter if u have a FL or TL, conventional or not...fabric softener can and will build up and create smell and such... Personally, when I exhaust ,all of my FS, I will no longer use them. I didnt rea;ize that they were fragrant oils with additives. And I am saying this becoming from whos hobby is making candles....HELLO!!!! I just go a wake up call LOL

I sent Maytag this question about their MHWE550WJ washer:

My laundry room is far from my water heater, so an HE washer is going to fill with cold water, even from the hot tap. My question is, will this washer extend the wash time if necessary, to allow the internal heater enough time to heat the water to the desired temperature e.g. warm or hot? Also, what are the actual temperatures corresponding to cold, warm, hot? Thanks.

Here's the answer:

The water temperature setting for washer model MHWE550WJ is listed as:

Sanitize = The internal heater will raise the temperature of the hot water to approximately 153 degrees F.

Hot = Will be what is coming from your hot water heater.

Warm = approximately 104 degrees F

Cold = Will be tap water cold

All but the cold water temperature is based off of a hot water temp coming from the hot water heater at 120 degrees F. The heater is used on select cycles only like the whites and sanitize cycles. Depending on the actual temperature, the heater will attempt to heat the water to reach 153 degrees, however it will not heat indefinitely and can eventually time out.

It sounds like the owners manual is wrong, or maytage sent you a wrong information. I guess who ever buys a FL of any brand will just have to take their chances with the machine and if it does not work to their satisfaction, return it. You could go crazy trying to purchase one of these things that you want to heat on all cycles. I guess I will stick with my current FL since it does heat in most cycles and if it breaks, rebuild it, even if I have to learn to do it myself.

I just came for a reputable plumbing store to discuss a new hot water tank vs. tankless. In talking about our needs I said we wanted to put a FL washer and dryer off our kitchen. (We currently have a TL in the basment) The employee said that either way tank vs. tankless we will have issues do to lack of hot water for the FL.

The easiest way to deal with it is to run hot water at the closest sink to the FL until the water is hot. Then immediately turn on the washer.

Another idea they have set up for customers with tankless is a remote thermostat where you can temporarily raise your hot water temp to say 153 degrees while you are washing.

I don't know if this helps but just wanted to pass on the info.

debrak_2008,

Why not simply add a recirculation system to your hot water line? This will ensure every tap in the house has almost instant hot water.

gates1,

I don't think you'll get much build-up from powder detergents. For the most part, when you add water to a substance and then evaporate the water, you're left with the original substance. Liquid detergents are so gooey and sticky that they are bound to cause build-up problems in the detergent drawer as well as the machine. I've never had powder detergent cause build-up in the drawer, ever, and it's unlikely that it would cause problems in the washer either.

I also think overuse of cold washes and fabric softener are definitely factors. Fabric softener is released during the final rinse. That means whatever is left in your machine after the final rinse will evaporate and leave a slight oily residue in its place. If the next wash uses cold water, it's unlikely to pick up that residue and may actually deposit more residue on top.

I think this whole issue starts and stops with fabric softeners and liquid detergents. Hot water washes in themselves don't necessarily solve the problem, but can prevent it from happening in the first place by limiting the amount of residue left in the machine. Cold water washing exacerbates the problem because it is not hot enough to remove the fabric softener/liquid detergent buildup left from the previous wash/rinse.

Use powder detergent, dilute the fabric softener or use less, and wash regularly on HOT. For those using liquid fabric softener, it may be advisable to start your "laundry day" with a load of whites on the HOT cycle and progress to cooler cycles and darker colors. The reason for this is simple. The last time you did laundry, your machine had a very slight fabric softener residue left in it from the final rinse. To have the best shot of removing that residue, start out with a HOT wash.

sshrivastava, though I mainly use liquid detergent, I do not have mold or smelly issues with my FL. I do agree with you that the use of liquid detergent and FS can create this issue. I rarely wash clothes in cold water, unless it is a new pair of jeans or a new red shirt. If I wanted to wash everything in cold water, there is no sense in me spending the exra money on a high end FL like I did over 9 years a go. Currently I am using persil again. I must say that it rinses better than anything I have ever used before. It is expensive, but it too works better than anything else out there on the american market...that just my opinion. I have really hard water so I have to use more than the average person. I alway use the extra rinse when I wash too, no sense in getting cheap on so little water just to save a few cents on each load. My whites so bright white, friends ask me what I use. No additives, bleach, at all, even when I used other HE detergents. If I haveto buy all that extra stuff to add to my laundry detergent, then it is obviously not doing it job and I do not need to repurchase it. Thanks for the great imput

I agree w/gates on everything!
Also I have tankless (electric) few feet away behind the wall and my LG is fine w/it. I can feel the hose being really hot when filling in. The water heater is almost on max and I use mainly sanitize cycles but even hot ones get pretty warm.
There are very small tankless units that could be installed next to washer so the hot water would be right there on demand.

My sister has had a Kenmore 2T FL washer for about 4 years now. It's her first front loading machine.
You should see how she treats it! She puts in CUPS of Tide HE liquid detergent and a cup or so of Ultra Downy. There are just as many suds in the rinse as there were in the wash cycle.
She washes everything in cold water and always keeps the door shut so her cats won't climb inside of it.
Guess what? The dammed washer still smells like new. Has that "new washer" smell to it.
Some people have all the luck!

Why does she use so much soap and softener?? Family must have some tough skin, no rashes?