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2ajsmama

School system declares DS 'gifted' - now what?

2ajsmama
14 years ago

Yesterday we got a letter from DS's principal stating that based on his state standardized test scores, he has been identified as "gifted". DH and I just started laughing, saying "What took them so long?" - DS has been in this school for 2 yrs now, took CMTs in 4th grade too. He was also in public schools in RI for 1st-3rd and never "identified" there, though when I took him for testing by school system at age 4.25, hoping to get him PT/OT in kindergarten that fall, they declared him "too smart" to require Special Services. That's when it was *their* screening at age 4 that found him to have gross and fine motor delays (turns out he had a lot of sensory issues).

Anyway, the letter states that "During the day, students are given opportunities to work at their own level through multiple approaches and enrichment activities. Any information we receive on outside opportunities for gifted students will be listed on our website. These out of district opportunities are not endorsed or funded by the school district an d you are free to pick and choose those you think would be appropriate. We share your pride in your child's high level of achievement and ability."

So, it's "We've identified your child as gifted, but we're not (or can't afford to) going to provide any more support to him than we do for other children. Congratulations, and good luck!"

DS told us last year that he was in a special group in Language Arts, so they read different books (though had to answer the same questions and follow the same format in book reports as the rest of the class), had different spelling words (Latin and Greek roots). I haven't heard that his math and science (his strong points) classes were divided into groups by ability like the "guided reading" groups. Of course this letter is coming after the Parent Open House where I could have asked about "groups" - one parent *did* ask about "leveling" and she was reassured that they did not do that - like it was a bad thing, though the little I understood it to be was more like what DS described as last year's "guided reading".

So, I can call to "set up an appointment with the principal to discuss your child's standardized test scores." I'm not really interested in that - we did receive the scores this summer and knew he did well. I would like to discuss "opportunities" (both within and outside the classroom) with each of his three teachers. They usually only offer conferences with the homeroom teacher (at least they did last year when he had 2 teachers), and for about 20 minutes total. I'd like at least that much time with each one of them. To complicate matters, we will be leaving on vacation the day before conferences start (they're having half days during Tgiving week, so we decided that was the best time to take the kids to WDW since their birthdays are that week *and* their cousins from MN and grandparents can join them).

So should I ask to set up conferences with each of his teachers ASAP and not wait another month and a half - 2 months? Do you have any particular questions you think I should ask? I'll check out Hoagies website - I haven't been there in years since it seemed that the school system didn't think DS was anything special, just a good student. I *do* have concerns (already expressed to DS's homeroom/science teacher) that my main goal for him this year is to get him to be more organized. That seems to be a major goal for the school too, since Jr high is coming up quickly (next year) and then kids will have 7 teachers instead of 3. I've already had to run DS back to school to get his math workbook on night - tough b/c now the school is locked and the office doesn't answer the phone after hours even though the principal is there. Even the teachers can't get back in - we had to wait til one came out and she let him in. I told DS that was the last time I was going to run him back 1/2 hr to school, next time he will have to accept the consequences of missed HW.

DH and I have decided not to let DS know about this identification.

Comments (46)

  • sweeby
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've got two boys with learning differences. Oldest is gifted, dyslexic and ADHD; youngest is autism-spectrum and special ed. And the one thing I've learned from BOTH of them is that the school has their system and you need to work within it, not around it. And from what you've said, it sounds like their 'gifted education' systems is essentially NOTHING.

    But meeting with the school before you're 100% prepared and focused enables them to dismiss you with pretty words about how well he's doing and how the teachers love having him in class and how the teachers will offer him great opportunities and blah, blah, blah. You'll be smiling until half-way through the parking lot when you suddenly realize that you have nothing to condense into a cogent 'sound bite' for Dad. (Remember the sensory issues conference?)

    For that reason, I'd advise you to not rush into anything. To take your time, mull it over, and decide in your own mind what you think is best for your son. Reduce it into a single clearly-worded goal per class: (English Goal: Develop strategies to organize his thoughts. In English class, DS will prepare an outline for each paper.) By being that clear in your own mind, you will KNOW whether or not the school agrees to your goals and modifications.

    Gotta run now...

  • Sheeisback_GW
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't have any advice to offer but wanted to say congrats to your son!

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  • sheesh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Of course you should meet with all three teachers and principal. And often! Teachers, in my experience, are always eager to meet with parents of gifted kids. You can probably arrange a conference with all of them soon, not just on conference nights.

    I have six gifted kids who attended school in two different states. There are some awful teachers, but not nearly as many as good ones, in my opinion. Be involved, but don't hover. Your son and his teachers will appreciate you.

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Searching on the word "gifted" on the district wbsite came up with zero results.

    Anybody who has gone through this with school system, I'd appreciate any direction. I've been reading about Underachievement on Hoagie's. Not that DS is "underperforming" right now - but b/c of his lack of organizational skills and perfectionism, it could easily lead to that in the next few years. From the time he was a toddler, he's been afraid to try things unless he was sure he could do them "perfectly" (sorry, must be genetic, I've tried not to push him but I'm the same way). We used to laugh that he must have been practicing talking in his crib at night b/c he went from barely speaking at age age 1 to speaking in sentences at age 21 months, 400 word vocabulary plus letters (upper and lowercase) and numbers at age 2! He was reading by age 4.5 (we're not quite sure when he started b/c he'd dutifully say a sight word when we pointed it out to him, but other than that he *never* read out loud, until he read a book to DD the day he was born (he was 5yrs 5 days), and he hasn't read out loud since.

    Should I email the teachers individually and ask them to brainstorm with me, get together a list of goals for each subject (and some general goals like organization) and then meet to discuss how to get him to meet those goals? Or should I make the principal the main POC? I don't want to jump the chain of command, but principal did tell parents at Open House to go to the person closest to the "problem" first rather than him, so that we could get a better, faster answer than he could provide.

    The conferences to date have been the "feel good" type, that's why we scheduled vacation for that time and figured we could skip Ds's conference (DD's will be right b4 we head to airport).

    Believe me, I wasn't smiling after the "special services" evaluation - we ended up paying for years of PT/OT just to get DS to the point where he could stand being in a sunny classroom with blinds closed (horizontal bands and pin pricks of light from cord holes coming through), sit at a desk for periods of time and so on (at least his first and 2nd grade teachers let him up to "run errands" to the office with a heavy bag of books if he needed to, set timers for work so he could get started rather than being distracted, etc.).

    Went through the same sort of thing in *this* school system 2 years ago with DD. She isn't "gifted" that we know of, *very* late speaker (I couldn't even tell dr how many words at age 2 b/c she never said more than a word at a time, and never the same word twice), lots of (different) sensory issues, the school system evaluated her in a home visit and at preschool and found she didn't need "special ed" either - we tried OT for the sensory issues, esp. feeding issues and she didn't seem to improve, our insurance wouldn't cover, so we stopped and we've just been muddling along, this AM was a particularly bad day with sock/seam and hair issues (screaming at me that she *wanted* a ponytail even after she told me it was pulling hair from the crown too tightly, almost missed the bus). Now that she's in school and they're evaluating the kindergartners for "reading readiness" maybe she'll get special help with that, but not for the sensory. Unless she qualifies for "special ed" and not just reading tutor - seems like the only way you can qualify for PT/OT is to have a learning disablity. Doesn't make sense. But that's another subject.

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    From a link on Hoagie's the state definition of gifted and talented is "Gifted and talented means a child identified by the planning and placement team as

    "(1) possessing demonstrated or potential abilities that give evidence of very superior intellectual, creative or specific academic capacity and

    (2) needing differentiated instruction or services beyond those being provided in the regular school program in order to realize their intellectual, creative or specific academic potential.

    The term shall include children with extraordinary learning ability and children with outstanding talent in the creative arts as defined by these regulations."

    According to #2, shouldn't the school be providing "differentiated instruction or services beyond those being provided in the regular school program", or does this simply mean that he "needs" it, but it's up to the parents to "provide" it?

    I called and left a message for the principal asking about IQ tests scores (if any) - we have the CT Mastery Test (English and math) scores, but I don't know if they've done any other testing. I seem to recall WPPSI testing in RI when DS was 4 as part of the eval, but don't recall getting any results, those may have gone into his school records so this school may have a copy.

    I don't know if the schools in CT regularly use the SB IQ test any more - I think they did when I was a kid. The link to state info on Hoagie's indicated that "gifted identification" is done in kindergarten, but there is no IEP or any kind of program, and no POC for CT. Not sure what we're supposed to *do* with this info other than pat ourselves on the back for having a "gifted" child...

  • gail618
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Are there any schools in your district that have a gifted/talented program? If so, perhaps you could transfer your son. In our county, they identify the G/T students at the end of second grade and the child can then transfer to the nearby G/T school or, if they choose to stay at their neighborhood school, they are offered some oportunities to be taught at a higher level. They should certainly offer your son something!

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ironically, the town where our driveway starts (not where our house is), which is a lower-income district with lower-performing schools than the town where we actually *live* (and kids go to school), has a G/T program. When we moved here we tried to get DS enrolled in the school just for convenience (bus) and the fact that he'd being going to same school as other family members, but they said they couldn't take him even if "our" town paid tuition, as school as at capacity.

    Should I call and ask about their (after school) G/T program? DS has such a long day anyway with long bus ride (doesn't get home til after 4pm), I don't know about trying to get him to another location after that (may even be too late by the time he gets home) to participate - some of the schools in this region can be pretty far away. Our property straddles 3 towns (the other also has a G/T program but it's in-school, ending in grade 6?) and 2 counties.

    I'm thinking I can just ask for extensions/modifications to curricula if I talk to each of his teachers, even though our state doesn't do IEPs for G/T. Unfortunately, DS decided not to participate in Stock Market game this year since they are meeting before school and DH can't leave him off, I can't bring him since I have to get DD off to school and it's hard enough to wake her at 6:45. His teacher did offer him the opportunity to play on his own w/o attending the meetings, but he declined.

    I just don't want to see him turn down more opportunities b/c we live in the sticks and transportation is an issue, unfortunately with NCLB, the teachers' days are filled with meetings and it's hard for them to organize clubs and activities for the kids either during school time or shortly after. I'm willing to pick DS up later in the day, just before school didn't work b/c of DD.

  • rob333 (zone 7b)
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, I've been there. We do have IEP here for our gifted students, because "special" means anything outside the realm of basic curriculum. And honestly, they're right. I talk with the parents of autistic children in the same manner as gifted; we have the same "issues".

    I am grateful for IEP. But basically, IEP meant we, the parents, the current year teacher, the tester, and anyone else you think can help, sit around and brainstorm what his needs are and how they can best be met. I wouldn't think an "official" meeting would be any more effective than just a brainstorming session could be. Here, in Nashville, we do have a special program (ENCORE) for our gifted and bright students, but what it boils down to is, they attend a special class for the last half of one day during the week. The rest of the school week falls on the current year teacher. What worked best for us was, we sent him to another classroom (a grade ahead) for the reading portion of the day, but that's where he excelled most. Now he excels at science, mathematics, you name it and we'll have to do IEP all over again. It's been years, so it makes sense to have a touch base meeting. Or we would have the teacher give him extra work. It's also not uncommon to take whatever subject they are learning, sit down with him to discuss what he heard, knows, and find out his questions (that's critical for a boy like him!), then I find additional material for him (internet, library, television shows) to soak up via an activity or to read. This made up for the trite phrase I hate to hear "boredom" he had to overcome.

    It's about supplementing his curriculum in some way, your way. It need not be complicated or official. You know your son, you'll get him settled down. I bet just knowing it officially helped a lot!

    -Robin

  • Ideefixe
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've been through this, although in the suburbs of LA, and the GATE programs weren't anything special, sad to say.
    But I did have luck finding online programs that either enhanced the regular coursework or let my kids study subjects that would never be offered in the classroom. Some were high-school online classes, some were designed for homeschoolers, some were affiliated with museums, etc.

    But, what might help your son now is something that relates to study skills--time management, organization, how to prioritize. Perfectionism can go hand-in-hand with procrastination, and if you can get him out of this cycle early, middle school and high school might be easier.

    What stuff is he into?

  • sheesh
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My third child was reading fluently and comprehensively when he was three. Shocked to discover his ability at the time, we asked him when he learned to read. He said, "I've always known how."

    When he went to kdg at age 4, he was sent to 3rd grade for reading and math, back to kdg for everything else. But he was still only 5 years old socially. Your school district has such options available, I'm sure of it.

    G/T in my district begins in 4th grade. Even if yours doesn't have g/t, they have dealt with g/t kids before and have things to offer.

  • awm03
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " ... but b/c of his lack of organizational skills and perfectionism, it could easily lead to that in the next few years. From the time he was a toddler, he's been afraid to try things unless he was sure he could do them "perfectly" ... he went from barely speaking at age age 1 to speaking in sentences at age 21 months, 400 word vocabulary plus letters (upper and lowercase) and numbers at age 2! He was reading by age 4.5 (we're not quite sure when he started b/c he'd dutifully say a sight word when we pointed it out to him, but other than that he *never* read out loud, until he read a book to DD the day he was born (he was 5yrs 5 days), and he hasn't read out loud since. "

    ajm, not trying to put a damper on things, but when I hear about anxious, perfectionistic, extremely verbal children with organizational problems, the alarms start ringing.
    Our DS had similar development: fearful, perfectionist, advanced verbal skills. Turns out he has a condition called Nonverbal Learning Disorder, which may or may not be on the autism spectrum (research is divided on this; IMO, it's on the spectrum because of the similarity with Asperger's). Our son's problems became more pronounced as he matured. The skills he lacks are the ones that make one a successful adult. His giftedness masked his problems for many, many years. In our son's day, there were no in-school support services for it. Now there are, and of course, early intervention is best.

    Hopefully, your DS doesn't have NLD. But you might want to read up on it and keep your eyes open if the disorganization, underperformance, or anxiety become problematic.

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks - I'll have to ask what might be possible. I'm thinking extensions for curriculum (seem only to differentiate in Language Arts) rather than sending him to the Jr High this year for some classes. Next year might be easier, then when he's in 7th they can send him up the hall or different building on campus for 8th-9th class if needed.

    He really needs help with study skills. I hit the wall in college - i don't know if it will be the same or earlier for him. I've already had to talk to him (last year) about showing his work on math HW - if he writes the answer down and it's wrong, it's wrong and he gets no credit. If he shows the work and makes a mistake somewhere along the way (esp. if simple calculation error but method is correct), the teacher will give partial credit. He's just so into "doing everything in his head." I don't even know how to help him find his learning style (may be different in each subject) and don't know if the school will help him until/unless he has a problem, or if they can help him at all. He is an advanced reader (he just found The Hobbit, wants to read LOTR but I don't know if it's too "adult" for him, I thought I might introduce him to The Hobbit this year but he found it on his own). But he also does well in math and science, finds archaeology very interesting.

    I just spent the last hour talking to someone from CT Assoc for the Gifted (advocacy group) and they gave me some suggestions, but really they all came down to seeing if there were other gifted children in his grade/school who might be able to be grouped together, rather than taking each class as a heterogeneous group. They do group kids (within class, I believe there are three 6th grade classes in this school) in reading, but don't know about other subjects. It might benefit all the "advanced" kids who have mastered the basics in say, Social Studies (studying ancient civilizations right now) to have more in-depth, self-guided exploration of the subject while the teacher is helping those at goal or below. But I don't know if the school will share that info (not names) with me. If there are a couple of kids in each 6th grade class with the same Social Studies teacher, can she "group" them, and give them the same assignment, even if physically they are in different homerooms, so are in 3 different periods?

    sherrmann - Our DS started later than yours, but when we asked him (at age 5, or almost 5) when he learned to read, and why he didn't read out loud, his answer was the same - "I've always done it that way.".

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    awm - we were posting at the same time. For a while we thought DS might be Asperger's (esp. when he used to "flap" and would only read non-fiction) but he is very close to family even though few close friends, may be immature but but not totally socially inept. I'll check out the link. The problem is getting help for anything but generally-recognized LDs - even then with ADHD all they want to do is medicate. I had to fight RI schools on that when DS couldn't sit still and focus in 1st grade b/c of his sensory issues. There seems to be a link b/t sensory integration problems (esp. tactile defensiveness - tags and seams and such) and giftedness? Maybe DD might turn out to be gifted after all - she certainly is verbal enough *now* - it only took 3 years!

  • deedee-2008
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think you'll be spinning in circles considering the myriad of options available to gifted students that may not even exist for your son. Why don't you just schedule a meeting with your school's principal or assistant principal to state your overall concerns? Of course, like others have said, meet with the individual teachers, also. I'm from CT, too, and each school district handles things differently. Besides the CMT's, our schools also use the OLSTAT and the DRP. Good luck, but don't worry too much about this.

  • awm03
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK, flapping (or other tics) and preferring non-fiction sets off some bells too.

    Sensory integration problems are not related to intelligence or giftedness, it's a neurological issue. Tags and seams -- I thought my son's complaints about the sock seams not being in the right place were unusual, but turns out that's a common complaint by these kinds of kids. Educators, at least my experience of them 10 to 20 years ago, are too quick to explain away quirks by calling them "giftedness" when, really, quirkiness has nothing to do with intelligence. My DS is also hypersensitive to sounds and smells -- is yours?

    We were tripped up for years by his teachers dismissing our concerns about his quirks and meltdowns. The teachers & test givers were certain the problems (not apparent at school as our son quickly learned to bottle them up until he got home) were because he was "so smart" or "gifted boys take longer to get it together," etc., etc. It was an astute college instructor who suggested he take a complete psycho-educational battery (not just IQ tests, of which he's had many) with a neuropsychologist, which is how we found out about it. Sadly, he had a breakdown shortly thereafter.

    Non-fiction is difficult for my son because he doesn't pick up on symbolism, can't picture the verbal descriptions in his head, and doesn't follow the social interactions in the story well. He has trouble following a movie or TV plot too -- the social cues go over his head. He's not terrible with these things, just slow on the uptake.

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    deedee - Principal called, they also based this ID on CogAT (not a real IQ test but an "abilities" test rather than "mastery" of subject like CMT). We have a mtg Tuesday to discuss, also to look through DS's file to see what info might have been forwarded from RI. I will mention sensory issues again (did tell principal 2 yrs ago when we registered Ds), and my concerns about organizational and study skills. I was going to talk to teacher(s) about that anyway when (if) we did schedule a conference. But I will ask principal for permission to have one-on-one (or group if they feel that will work better - almost like a PPT) conference with all 3 teachers to discuss not only this but also extensions.

    awm - i emailed you.

    thanks everyone - we suspected DS was gifted, of course we've always explained things to him from early age (when he was 4 he asked how cell phones worked and I told him), using adult but easily-understood language, much as we would to say, our parents. Also encouraged him to read (almost) everything he could get his hands on. But now that it's "official" I feel like I did when he got that "Dx" of fine and gross motor delays - like we need to "do" something about it. We got through that (with a lot of help from online groups and my mom, who had Early Childhood and Sensory expert contacts), we'll get through this. Initially, though, it's a little overwhelming, esp. when the school system doesn't offer any services or direction, and there are other issues (be it SDI or NLD).

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    awm - we were posting at same time again. DS has poor motor planning abilities, low muscle tone, and poor proprioreceptive and vestibular processing. He's learned to work through them, though he still can't ride a bike and prefers to play catcher in baseball. He can hit, but maybe not well enough to ever get off Farm team. He can't field. He decided not to play LL this year b/c of school and Scouts. He has finally learned to tie his shoes, though he prefers not to (slips them on and off already tied). At least now he wears jeans instead of sweatpants all the time and socks don't bother him - in fact, other than wanting to wear elastic-waist pants, he never seemed to be bothered by clothes - he'd wear them all twisted up and not notice that they were bunched.

    DD has extreme problems with seams and textures of clothing and and food (also food temperatures). We gave up on OT with her but some days I think we have to go back. She has always been very active physically (DS never climbed - she climbed and jumped and is now learning to cut with a butter knife while DS still struggles). She didn't start speaking until age 3 though (just b4 EI got back to me), used to heave *fits* when we didn't understand her made-up sign language, wasn't potty trained until age 4. *Now* she seems to have an advanced vocabulary for her age, just b/c she hears us and DS talking, and, just like DS, we never talk "down" to her. She struggles with her letters, maybe b/c we haven't had the kind of time to devote to teaching her that we did with DS, also he was in daycare/preschool from 3 months whereas b/c of her fussiness she was home with me from age 1 (and even after I quit my job, I was picking DS up from school and running him to OT or Scouts or Little League, then we started building this house).

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, and DS was more sensitive to light (esp rapid changes in light levels, like driving through woods on sunny day), where DD is more sensitive to smells and sounds. Though she's very loud herself? No hearing problems (we had that evaluated when she wasn't speaking at average age).

  • awm03
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi ajm, don't see your email yet. We're entertaining a customer tonight until Sunday, so will try to answer questions in between smiling and polite chit chat w/customer :) DH invited him to stay at our house, which isn't much more pulled together than yours -- Ackkkk!

    BTW, I don't mean at all to suggest your DS isn't gifted. He probably is very much so! Just wanted to alert you to some things and share our experiences with similar circumstances.

  • daisyinga
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a 20 year old and 17 year old who were both identified as gifted in elementary school, so I am very familiar with gifted education in our district.

    First, from reading only the excerpt from the letter from your school district Anyway, the letter states that "During the day, students are given opportunities to work at their own level through multiple approaches and enrichment activities. Any information we receive on outside opportunities for gifted students will be listed on our website. These out of district opportunities are not endorsed or funded by the school district an d you are free to pick and choose those you think would be appropriate. We share your pride in your child's high level of achievement and ability."

    I'm not sure that I come to the same conclusion you do - So, it's "We've identified your child as gifted, but we're not (or can't afford to) going to provide any more support to him than we do for other children. Congratulations, and good luck!" .

    You may be right, your district may only offer no or very little gifted opportunities, but that is not necessarily what I would assume from only the contents of the letter and no other knowledge of your district.

    If your school district publishes outside opportunities on their web site but does not fund them, then they are following a policy similar to the districts I'm familiar with. Our district makes parents of gifted students aware of outside opportunities, but there's no way I would expect our district to fund them. There are camps available for gifted students, the Duke Talent program, etc. - opportunities that involve out-of-state travel and associated fees. I wouldn't expect any school district to fund those types of opportunities, but I'm very grateful the public schools make sure parents of gifted children know the opportunities are available.

    The wording about the opportunities your district does provide is vague, and could mean anything from "our school has basically nothing" to "we have a great program, and individual teachers or schools tailor the program to meet the needs of our students, which is why we can't possibly spell it out in this letter".

    It sounds like your son will be starting junior high school next year? If so, the advice I'd give to moms in my district would be to ask as many questions about what's available in high school and also junior high school as this last year of elementary school.

    Most of the kids I know well are gifted, as those are my children's classmates. Gifted kids vary a great deal in temperament, abilities, motivation, etc. In my opinion the best gifted programs, the best gifted teachers, and the best parents take these different characteristics into account. That is the reason why the wording may be vague in your district's letter.

    For example, my daughter was very motivated to do work that pleased herself. Given an assignment to write sentences using 20 spelling words, she would make up a lovely story. My son, who is at least as talented at language arts as she is, would write 20 sentences as short as possible using the spelling words. He would not write one extra syllable. His goal was to exert the least amount of effort for the reasonably best grade. These 2 different approaches had huge implications for their elementary school education.

    All gifted education did for my son in elementary school was keep a little spark of love of learning fanned alive in him (which is an important thing, I know). But his more comprehensive gifted education happened in junior and high school. By high school (in our district) kids are as separated as they choose to be into gifted, honors, college prep, etc. Gifted kids can choose (here) to take almost completely gifted classes. So if you are disappointed in what your elementary school offers for gifted education, check into what it's like further down the road in middle and high school.

    From what you have written, I would be most concerned about your son's organizational abilities. Many (gifted certified) teachers have told me that the biggest predictor of success for their students was not their raw intelligence but their organizational abilities. That is one reason why I am a big fan of gifted education for gifted students - they need to have classes at a level that forces them to study and be organized. Some gifted students who never work for their academic success do often "hit a wall" as you said you did. I would listen carefully to the teachers about your son's abilities and what they plan to offer as gifted education here in elementary school. I would pay careful attention to the structure of what they plan to offer. The pullout gifted program my son was in during 4th grade made organization more difficult on many of the already struggling-with-organization 4th grade boys. For some gifted students it offered a way for them to learn superior organizational skills, but for some boys who were struggling it just made life more difficult than it needed to be. The school corrected that problem a year or two later, but it was hard for some of the kids who lived through it.

    I think you should schedule a conference with your son's teachers first - all of them. When my son was in middle school sometimes the school seemed to discourage conferences with any teachers other than homeroom teachers. But if the parent continued to ask, the other teachers would accommodate and meet. Particularly in your son's special circumstances all the teachers should be willing to meet.

    The other thing I would encourage you to do is to not be so quick to dismiss meeting with the school to discuss your son's test scores. Those test scores are very helpful, and I encourage you to meet with either the school counselor or a gifted certified teacher to help you understand them. The CogAT test measures a student's ability to learn certain things. There are other tests that identify achievement or what a student has learned, and other tests that identify creativity. Someone familiar with the tests may be able to help you understand much more about your son.

    Good luck!

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    daisy - thanks for pointing out I should find out *now* what's available in 7th grade (as well as what the "standard" curriculum is for 7th). I have been so focused on getting him organized and prepared for 7th grade, and now on what "gifted" programs they have available in 6th, that I forgot that he can just take this year to get organized and do the normal lessons, and just get into more advanced classes next year.

    I am not dismissing the meeting with principal - once I read the letter again and saw CogAT mentioned I did ask him about those scores since we hadn't seen them. I don't know that they're going to be as helpful as "real" IQ tests, but it's something and the principal is willing to discuss them. I will ask him if I can email the teachers (I know DS's homeroom teacher who is also science teacher is on CC, but I don't know if other 2 teachers have been notified).

    I *did* check into the "programs" available, so far all I have found are the "guided reading" and then the extracurricular things like the Stock market Game (which was played in class last year, but this year is before school since the teachers have lunchtime meetings for NCLB and can't find time during the school day to meet with the kids). A link to state programs from state Dept of Ed showed that the town our driveway starts in has an after-school program, the town on our property line has a "Schoolwide Enrichment Program in which identified students, as well as the general student population, will participate in a wide variety of program activities and services both inside and outside the classroom." and our district has "We provide extension and enrichment activities in an integrated approach." which I took to mean the guided reading and I'm not sure there's anything else available for other subjects, but I will ask next week. According to the man from the advocacy group I talked to, our district has nothing. But the next town over from us (not one our property borders on) has "Formal identification of the gifted and talented takes place in Grades 3-8. The program involves regular education modifications and differentiated teaching strategies." which may be a little more than what our town does, so maybe I can get some communication going, find out what they do and if we can do similar "modifications" and "differentiation" in our elementary school?

    The first thing is to find out what "opportunities to work at their own level through multiple approaches and enrichment activities." are available - there may be things that DS and his 5th grade teacher (who now is another science teacher for 6th grade) haven't mentioned, don't know about, and aren't listed on the school website.

    I do know that DS is not a "creative" (as in artistic) kid. Never was into building toys, puzzles, etc. Just books. At first science, weather, archaeology, dinosaurs, now fantasy/science fiction/historical fiction.

    Oh, and awm - if he's got the adolescent eye-roll down pat already, do you think he has problems with nonverbal communication LOL?

  • roobear
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think there are online learning programs and or schools for gifted children. Also in the summer maybe check with local colleges for College for Kids programs. When I was in 6th grade I did one at a University that was for gifted kids, I remember having a lot of fun. I think most of these programs last about two weeks.

  • daisyinga
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My son is not artistic or creative in an artistic way, either.

    One thing that helped me was to see the difference in achievement scores (for us the ITBS) and the cognitive abilities test for my kids. My daughter's scores indicate that she makes the very most of her learning opportunities, which was helpful to know. My son's scores indicate that that he has a greater capacity to achieve (but he still did quite well).

    Another thing that helped was to talk to the teachers themselves, and particularly to talk to the gifted certified teachers. To the lay parent, the jargon about differentiation, etc. seems vague, at least to me. Where the rubber meets the road is how the teacher implements that concept. Some teachers do it quite well, some only pay lip service to it.

    In elementary school my son's class piloted the differentiation policy. It was simply that the kids who were scoring 90 or above in math were offered the opportunity to work on a more accelerated worksheet. The teacher would answer questions, etc., but the kids mostly worked on their own while the teacher taught the rest of the class. The "differentiated" kids took a pretest, and if they scored well they continued. If not, they were taught with the regular group. The teachers were very good about making sure the "differentiated" kids' grades and understanding did not suffer if they had trouble with the differentiated curriculum.

    In our middle school there was no "differentiation" offered. That was only an elementary school offering. Our middle school offered totally separate classes for gifted kids based on their area of need. Don't be discouraged if the "differentiation" offered isn't successful for your son. My son's elementary school teachers offered differentiated math and he often did not do well in it. But he was later very successful in math, passing many of the students who handled the elementary school "differentiation" quite well.

    Different methods work with different gifted kids. The trick is to find what works best for your son. The district web sites really didn't help me much at all, nor did the letters, flyers, or handouts. My best resource was the teachers themselves. For me it didn't seem to matter what the principals, counselors, and district employees said. The teachers are the ones who really knew what was going to happen in the classroom. However, counselors are good at interpreting test scores. Principals are good at letting parents know what district policy is. Principals can tell you all day long what the policy is, but if the teacher doesn't implement it with effectiveness or enthusiasm it doesn't matter.

  • ganggreen980
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I took a slightly different direction. In our district, there are optional TAG opportunities available for identified students. It's not funded by the district.

    We pursued some additional teaching here at home and had him become in various extracurricular activities.

    In the elementary school, most (not all) of his teachers provided him more difficult reading material along with appropriate (but not additional) assignments. This worked very well. Again, some teachers provided this, some did not.

    As he was finishing sixth grade, the middle school announced that they were starting an advanced math class for 7th graders. This class covered both 7th and 8th grade math in the same year. Those completing the class with a B or better could move on to taking 9th grade algebra during their 8th grade year, thus entering high school with that alegebra credit under their belt.

    In addition, they have added an advanced language arts and writing class for the 8th grade kids.

    So, DS is in these advanced classes this year in 8th grade. He's really doing very well and really loves his teachers. All I see is extra work. He has a minimum of 3 hours of homework each night, sometimes as much as 5 hours. I find that excessive and hope it will settle down as the year passes.

    Interestingly, organization is an issue for my son as well. There is a program in the middle school called AVID which is geared to those kids who show promise and are possibly headed in the direction of college but who may lack the support system at home to get them there. Typically these kids would be the first in their family attend college. They teach all sorts of very cool things including how to study and organization techniques. Sadly, despite his organizational issues, DS is not eligible for that class.

    He is very involved in both the wind ensemble and the jazz band at the school (as well as music outside of school). It is very notable that 95% of the kids in his advanced classes are also in the band program. Unfortunately, in the spring, these kids are pulled out a fair amount for band competitions and festivals (all adjudicated). They're still expected to complete the in-class work as well as the homework, and many of the teachers require it be turned in before the due date if the kids have a planned absence for band work.

    So, this is my very long way of saying I have no advice! Been there, but I have no real advice. I would really start by talking to the teachers first.

    Oh, and I stopped taking forgotten assignments and lunch to school in 6th grade. He took a few 0's on his missed assignments and missed lunch a few times, and now he's very good about getting all his stuff together the night before.

  • awm03
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "...he's got the adolescent eye-roll down pat already, do you think he has problems with nonverbal communication"

    LOL! Some things are universal, aren't they? :) I still don't see your email. Perhaps it didn't get sent?

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    awm - I emailed you through GW, not directly. Maybe there's a problem with GW?

    ganggreen - thanks for the description. My DB who is a year younger and I weren't "gifted", or they didn't have the programs back then, but we were both scholarship (I was valedictorian, he was salutatorian the next year). Our younger sibs were G/T, even though younger DB is ADHD. My sister quit G/T b/c all they did was pile on extra work on top of the regular load. I think DB did too.

    Funny, though all of us were musically and artistically gifted or at least proficient (I was All-state singer, so was DB, I taught myself to read music and would transpose keys on the fly while playing piano, was a very good "realistic" style artist in HS - can't draw worth beans now, DB is a contemporary artist now fine arts professor, DS was flautist, speaks 2.5 languages fluently (only basic Korean) and is now trying to pursue a writing career, younger DB graduated from Berkely College of Music), my son can't carry a tune in a bucket (takes after his father) and has never shown any interest in drawing (as a toddler he'd tell me to "do it" b/c he didn't think he could draw well enough - I guess his skill didn't match his vision). While I *used* to be fluent in Latin and Spanish (if you don't use it you lose it), and picked up Italian and some French while in Europe for a month, and DH used to be a French linguist in the Army (and became fluent in conversational Italian very quickly while working for NATO one summer), DS has never been good at languages - related to his tin ear? He tried taking Spanish in 2nd grade and struggled with pronunciation. He has problems with English pronunciation too, but I think that's b/c his reading vocabulary is so much larger than his verbal, when he tries to pronounce a word he's read numerous times but hasn't heard often, he'll invent his own pronunciation, and even when we correct him, oftentimes he'll slip back into the "invented" pronunciation b/c it's so ingrained by then.

    It'll be interesting to see his CogAT scores. I'll let you all know when I find out what they are and what they mean. Thanks.

  • deegw
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a 16 yo girl who had off the chart CogAT scores in elementary school. The girls who taught herself to read at 3 was also disorganized and a habitual procrastinator. To make a long story short, it took us a few years to realize that the fact that everyone knows she CAN do the harder worksheet or read the advance book or whatever does not mean a blessed thing. Life is about what you accomplish, not about what you might be able to do or intend to do. If you don't have the skills that allow you to accomplish a task, intelligence doesn't mean anything in the real world.

    In retrospect, I wish we had used the elementary years to establish good life habits instead of worrying about if she was challenged enough. Thankfully now she has matured enough to overcome her natural tendencies toward disorganization, but it has been a struggle.

  • sweeby
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm going to reiterate my core message --

    Think about what you really want for your son and what he really needs. I'm guessing you want him to be excited about learning, to feel some challenge, and to learn organization, research and study skills.

    Many typical G/T programs won't do anything really to achieve these goals. Many just teach harder materials faster for a while, then back to 'regular' math when the program's over (great - now even more boring...), or add extra work (gee, thanks...)

    Guess what I'm saying is why push for a program like that?

    Push for just a few things that will help your son develop and grow in the areas you think will benefit him most. Ask his teachers what big projects or assignments they have coming up, and see if you can find ways to get your son's assignment modified to better meet his needs.

    - Encourage him to make deeper conections by modifying an assignment to color in a political map of Africa to one where he overlays the political map with a geographical map and explores how the geography may have influenced the politics.

    - Encourage organizational skills by asking him to 'table' information instead of or in addition to writing paragraphs. Or ask that his writing teachers require outlines and bibliographies.

    - Ask that they require him to find three different sources for information (opinion on current events?), and compare how the three sources present the information differently, and to explain how his views might have been limited or biased had he stopped at only one source.

  • bestyears
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I want to echo what Sweeby and some of the like minded people have written. DS (17) taught himself to read, tested gifted early on, continues to score top 1% etc. Unfortunately, I saw his love of school take a slow but steady decline over the years. Although he's always been in the GT program, it doesn't amount to a hoo-rah. I say that as both a parent and a GT-certified teacher in this District. My perspective was always to focus on him as a whole child. I didn't want to make school a battleground -when I really didn't believe we could affect any meaningful change. He'll be going to a great college, and I'm anxious to see what he will do with this opportunity. Like others, I also have a less gifted but far more capable younger child. A classic over-achiever... She may accomplish more. Anyway, I digress... the real reason I wanted to post was to say I think the answer is staring you in the face. Since you and DH are both clearly way above average in your academic accomplishment, think about what you liked, what you might have wished for, etc. on the academic landscape. And try to provide that. It may happen during the school day or not.

  • amicus
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ajsmama, I just wanted to comment on your daughter's sensory issues. My daughter had extreme sensory issues as a young child. As an infant she cried often, despite me ensuring she was not too warm or too cold, hungry, wet, etc. Once she could talk, she complained constantly that her clothes hurt her because the seams were 'scratching' her, which made me wonder if that is what caused all the crying in infancy. Socks were almost impossible because if the seam was on top of her toes, it bothered her and if the seam was right at the end of the toes, that was worse! She would pull at the toe of her socks until she could tuck about 2 inches underneath her foot. The seams bothered her immensely, yet somehow having to walk on bulky fabric lumps tucked under her toes didn't.

    We had to cut fabric tags from all clothing. Hats, hair clips and anything else that went in the hair or on the head, hurt her, including brushing her hair, no matter how gently. Her eyeglasses bothered her ears and brushing her teeth hurt her gums. Everything was a challenge and caused her to cry that it was scratching or hurting her.

    Around the age of 6, things completely turned around! Within a period of a few months, everything that once bothered her greatly, didn't seem to annoy her at all. I don't know exactly what brought the change, as stress had never been considered a factor since she was an otherwise very happy child.

    Now, at the age of 22, she often jokes about how awful it must have been for me to cope with all her issues with clothing etc., and she just recalls how it slowly started abating until she was no longer bothered anymore. The only thing that bothers her now is turtleneck sweaters, and she can live without wearing them. So I just wanted to mention that even in severe cases like my DD had, persistent sensory issues can completely disappear within a few months.

  • never_ending
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sweeby and Bestyears, I'm with you on the whole child approach. We knew our oldest son was bright, and we TRIED to tell them at his Kindergarten screening he was reading but they just wrote, "Parents say child can read." By Thanksgiving he hated school, coloring, letter practice, tying the other children's shoes, reading to them etc. We contacted the district and had them test him, and see if he could be possibly moved to first grade since he had only missed the age cut-off by 6 weeks. We were gracious about insisting it be done, and initially they did it to appease us. To make a long story short, I think he was 4 grade levels above his peers, and very socially mature. At our "team" meeting they wanted to know what we wanted to do with him. They were honest, they had never experienced his "level of brightness" before. We had already done our homework and decided he was a little boy who deserved to like school, and although he was fabulously smart, we would not make that be the core of his existence, we wanted happy. We asked to have him accelerated into 1st grade and it made a world of difference! The naysayers came out of the woodwork, we were crazy! He is now in 9th grade, should be in 8th and is taking 10th grade math and science. He seems happy and well adjusted for thirteen. School is still a breeze for him but at least he is academically engaged to the degree his grades are still important to him and he manages his school life responsibly.

    He also attended a GT satellite program he thought was ludicrous. My advice: talk to your school. Sit down and talk options, not scores, not brilliance, just about your child. You won't find a perfect solution, no parent does, but treat the district with respect, and they will treat you with respect. One, you are a concerned parent- they will admire and respect you for that alone. Two, your child is bright and all teachers enjoy sharing learning, they will work with you if you try to understand, first, where they are coming from, and second, the limitations of their classroom. Don't go in demanding, and hovering, your child is not their only student.

    Every child is "gifted and talented" in their own special way. Try not to get caught up in the testing, the scores, and the analysis. Relish in the fact they recognize his intelligence, but you need to concentrate on him, the whole child. The next few years will be busy, confusing, growing years, as he navigates through the teen years and all the changes it brings with it. If he seems challenged,and basically happy, great! Take care to expose him to all you can that he is interested in, expand his horizons beyond school. He will still have challenges in school even being gifted so don't think it'll be smooth sailing.

    I think every mother of gifted children could write a book. Take the best pieces of advice that ring true to you and your son, and go from there. You can work with your school district or against them, it's all how you look at it. Once your excitement dies down, just enjoy your son.

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not excitement, more like panic. Like I said, feels like we should "do" something about it/for him. DH already feels like we're "not doing enough for our kids" b/c my DB's 2.5 yr old and DS's 3.5 yr old are taking violin lessons, the 3.5 yr old took ballet last year and of course is bilingual since her parents are. Then our other DB's 7 yr old has been in an immersion Spanish school since she was in K. I think Ds is old enough to decide what he wants to do and know (to some extent) his limits, so I didn't push baseball this spring. He has enough with Scouts each week and a lot of field trips in addition to school. He begged to try trombone a couple of years ago, never practiced so dropped that.

    DD wants to take ballet but I told her she'd have to follow directions. I've been looking for an after-school program for her, stopped by ballet school near K twice but they were closed so I guess no afternoon classes - I'll have to call or look them up online.

    Like I said, I'd just like DS to become more organized, and if the assignments aren't challenging (he tends to finish his math problems riding home on the bus), then I'd like to have him do something *more* though not *extra* work so that he doesn't get into the habit of being "lazy" and thinking everything comes easily and get bored. Something like we ended up doing in 1st grade, when he was reading books at the level that the other kids were having read *to* them. He got to pick his books and read them himself, and conference with a volunteer (sometimes me) after 10 books, answer some questions (I always asked him more in-depth questions than I asked the other kids), and go off with a new book as a "prize". That was a program designed to get kids excited about reading - he already was, but it just encouraged him to read more and to think and remember more about the book he chose to conference on so that he could answer the questions. Maybe his English teacher can ask him to answer more in-depth questions in his book reports than she asks of the rest of the class. Things like that.

    There are always things like the Talcott Mt Science Center classes (I attended some as a kid), if he's interested. But I'd like to see what the school offers/can do before we go looking for outside programs.

  • anele_gw
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have not read through all the replies-- forgive me! I am supposed to be working at the moment! :)

    I had the same "panic" feeling with my own DD, who is now 7. When she entered KG, I was worried they would not do enough to accommodate her needs. Her teacher was very responsive and had her own gifted child, but to a large extent, her hands were tied. The actual gifted program didn't even start until 2nd grade, and that was only an hour/day program that was in 3 week blocks (in other words, they'd have it for 3 weeks, then nothing for 3 weeks).

    They tried various things that year, having her work with the gifted teacher anyway, giving her time with the librarian for one-on-one work, sending her to 1st grade for math. She still complained about the long days and was very unhappy, which is not typical of someone in KG.

    The next year we skipped her to 2nd grade, as she seemed happiest in the classes (w/the gifted teacher and 1st grade math) when they were not in her grade level. But, it was still not working. When I observed, it seemed like the other students (on the whole) accepted her, but academically, she was still not being challenged, even officially being part of the gifted program.

    I considered, too, putting her in extra classes after school or during the weekends. My mom pointed out that this wasn't really fair-- she should have enough free time (she was only 5, after all!) and those things should be part of her school day. In other words, her childhood shouldn't have to pay the price for her school not meeting her needs.

    DD continued to be really unhappy about school. It affected everything in our lives because our whole life was centered around school-- from when she went to bed to how she spent her free time. At that point, I pulled her out and homeschooled her.

    Some people, including my husband, have thought this was catering to her. My thought is, if you can't cater to a young child, then who CAN you cater to? Some people think it's not teaching her about disappointment or tough times in life. I have explained-- DD is disappointed on a daily basis! She has 2, soon to be 3 sisters, and she has to handle waiting, increasing her patience, working with others, not being able to do what she wants, etc.

    The other reason I pulled her out was because my mom and her friend started the public (magnet) school that I attended. I know ALL about trying to change the "system" and I know it is an ongoing struggle. My mom thought it was worth it, I do not. I would rather put my energy directly into my children (and really, be able to serve their needs immediately without any red tape involved!) rather than put it into fighting, hoping, and waiting.

    When we talked to DD's teacher when she was being pulled out, her teacher said she had wished the principal had better prepared her for DD, and that she was going to a gifted conference to learn more about gifted ed. This was wonderful (I am sure there are other gifted students in her classroom!) but for me, it was another sign that whew . . .we did not have to rely on anyone else to figure this out. We could start RIGHT AWAY meeting her needs.

    Homeschooling (well, we unschool but that's another story) has made a HUGE, and I mean HUGE difference for my DD, now 7. She never has the outbursts that she used to have, she is actually peaceful and content most of the time, she can do the "extras" (like piano) that she wanted to do but was too tired, etc. She works exactly at her level and challenges herself. She will read a Junie B. Jones book (silly, mindless, but entertaining) and then pick up a copy of the U.S. Constitution and read that within the same day. (She wants to write her own Constitution for children, ha, ha!) Now she is a fan of Shakespeare (no, she hasn't read an entire play, but she reads the abridged versions w/the original language) and wants to put on a Shakespeare festival. She is also working on writing several stories and plays. She reads books about history, science, and even math (she used to like math . . .once she started school she started saying she hated it, so we are treading slowly there). These are things she never would have had time for had she still be in school.

    Best of all, she has freedom. She can listen to her own needs when it comes to sleep and food, do activities that suit her, play, play, play, spend more time with friends, etc.

    Anyway, if you decide to keep your son in school-- in ANY school, even a gifted one, I think Sweeby's advice is excellent. Just hoping a gifted program will take care of his needs isn't enough-- there is such a huge range of what "gifted" is, and if your son is on the profoundly gifted end, then his needs will most likely be very different from the majority of even the other gifted students.

    Sorry for that novel! Back to work!

  • never_ending
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ajsmama,

    I understand what your husband is saying, if these children really enjoy all these activities, then they should go. Over the years I have tried to encourage my children to participate in different activities, yet in all honesty my children are content to stay home. This fall my youngest boy-9 decided he did not want to play Youth Football. We bribed, cajoled, questioned, all to no avail! His answer to it all was "Mom, I can play football when I'm older, but I can't play and hunt dragons forever." That was it, I'm done, he's right. My point is your husband can want your son to do lots of things, but sometimes you do need to take into account what your son wants. Find out what your school is offering, see what interests your son, and as far organization goes, teach him the skills, but DON'T do it for him. Several of my friends have unorganized children that THEY keep organized. I echo the few zeros and they'll learn fast too! Keep in mind if your give him the "responsibility" his "organization" may not look like yours, but who cares if it works! =)

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK, here are the CogAT scores - 99 percentile Verbal 99 percentile Quantitative, 95 percentile Nonverbal. Raw scores are 62/65 verbal, 59/60 quantitative, and 60/65 nonverbal. Not sure what "SAS" is - look like IQ but I know it's not, so may get more info from the percentile rankings?

    Principal says they have no G/T program, but teachers are willing to work with students, they *do* try to differentiate as much as possible, so extensions/modifications I was suggesting (such as requiring an Abstract, References in the lab report DS was supposed to hand in today but had trouble printing) seemed reasonable. I can talk to each of the teachers about possible modifications to assignments, pretesting, etc. one-on-one. They do have the school psychologist giving lessons in time management, prioritization, etc. to all the 6th graders - principal said to ask DS what he has learned so far (he hasn't learned to print out his report ahead of time LOL - he had so many fonts and colors - one per paragraph - that a 2 page report was 85K and wouldn't print! We had a quick talk about legibility before he got on the bus.)

    I emailed his lab report to the science teacher, asked about setting up conference since we will be on vacation when they are doing conferences.

    Can anybody think of anything else I should have asked the principal, or that I should ask the teachers? Thanks

  • parma42
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've been on vacation so I missed when you posted this.

    It's been years ago, but my DS had the same problem in public grade school.

    He knew his alphabet when he was 20 months and was reading the editorial page of the Milwaukee Journal at 24 months (then debating about the presidential elections). Milwaukee had no programs available unless you were low income and that was just a preschool not geared toward high achievers.

    Fast forward to grade school and there was no help there, either. They said they would try to find stimulation, but that amounted to running the school store and raising the flag every day?! Problem was, he was smarter than his teachers.

    I see that your DS has some other issues. Maybe you should invest in further testing to see if they can be pinpointed and analyzed.

    When mine finally got into the higher grades, he was able to have gifted classes. Check into your local community college as they often have programs for younger children that might enable him to study with others of his same apptitude.

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just got a phone call from DS's math teacher. Turns out that she offered him an extension to do something called webquest last week. It would run for 5 weeks, in which time he would be asked to devote 30 minutes twice a week instead of doing homework two nights, and then another hour during the week or weekend, so total of 10 hours (she has even had kids in the past complete it in 5 hours). She sent me the presentation she gave the kids last week - it's asking them to do research on things like how a player's weight might impact how many home runs he hits, does a player's height correlate with how many rebounds he gets, etc.

    He turned it down, not once, but THREE times that she asked, the latest being today. He said "he didn't have time." This sounds like the sort of thing I was asking the principal for this morning and he's declining it! Is it just b/c he can do his math HW on the bus, and this would actually require a computer so would cut into his "free" time? I think he can *read* on the bus, and I have to start limiting the Gameboy time (meant to take it away last month so I could monitor/limit his "screen time" but I forgot). Or is it b/c he's worried it will be "too hard" and he won't do as well (like I said, he does his math HW on the bus, it's not a challenge)? He's always been a perfectionist and afraid to try new things unless he's sure he'll be good at them. But she told the kids that this would not count against them if they had trouble, and would not count against them if they declined. She said 3 kids declined. But she was clearly upset that he has refused. *I'm* upset that he didn't even *mention* this to us!

    How do I motivate him to take advantage of these opportunities instead of just "cruising" along in the regular curriculum?

  • kkay_md
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I felt that the best thing for my G&T kids was not to rely primarily on the school or after-school classes. Given too full a "work" schedule, some children start to feel overwhelmed, and rebel--or shut down. We didn't want that to happen.

    Our approach was to have a lively and interesting life outside of school. We read out loud to our kids--long, lovely novels--until they were in middle school. We took them to the theater--they were attending Shakespeare at a pretty young age, and enjoying it. We emphasized conversations at the dinner table about current events, inviting them to express their opinions and thoughts. We subscribed to a good newspaper and always had lots of books--LOTS--on hand. We took them to concerts and festivals--and always talked about our impressions and experiences. They were both on sports teams of their own choosing.

    We traveled extensively both in the US and Europe (though of course it's not essential to go to expensive or great lengths to enrich a child's life with travel). We also researched local places with an historical slant, and visited those. We went frequently to museums and exhibits.

    My point is, perhaps more important than classes, more important than taking tests or reviewing scores, is to instill a sense of curiosity about the world as a rich, varied, and interesting place, and provide all kinds of opportunities to explore that world outside of school. There are different ways to learn that do not require sitting in a classroom or doing paperwork, and such variety can make the time in the classroom more palatable. My kids are excellent, involved students in the classroom, but more importantly to me, they are opinionated, passionate, and involved, and love learning. They have lots of interests, and are committed to exploring them.

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, I just calmly asked DS when he got home about the math project, he started crying and said that he was afraid that if he didn't do well it would bring down his grade. I told him we'd email the teacher and ask, but I thought that this was an opportunity for extra credit, and that it wouldn't hurt his grade if he didn't do well. He agreed that it sounded interesting, and even after she emailed back that it would be graded, wouldn't tell us how much weight towards final it would be, he still thought he'd try it. We have never put much emphasis on grades, I don't know where he gets his anxiety and perfectionism from but as I said it's been from a very young age, well before school. But it's like anything he's afraid to do - once he tries it, and does well, it'll give him confidence. I told him if he doesn't do well on this project, he doesn't have to do any more "challenges" this year.

    I think DS did well on the tests and in school b/c we do take time to explain things to him (again from a young age), read to him (and now he reads by himself) all the time, and take the kids to places like the science museum and the art museum, not just "children's museums". Really I don't want to push him to take tests and do more work, but this was an opportunity to do a research project, gather data, analyze it, and draw conclusions from it - much more challenging and "real-world" than rote arithmetic. The teacher said that it would take the place of up to 2 nights' HW per week for the next 5 weeks, so it was not "extra" work piled on.

    My kids love learning and are definitely opinionated, but DS tends to be a bit "lazy" (maybe b/c he hasn't found his passion - except Pokemon?) and I'm just trying to challenge him to go beyond the bare minimum he needs to do in school - not that he does just "passing" work but it could easily slip into that as the coursework gets harder, if he doesn't get excited about *something*. If he never learns to study and research, what's he going to do in HS and college when he finds that he can't pass a test just by having done his HW up to that point? "Good enough" is good enough in some things, but there should be something that he can get passionate about (like when he was little and devoured the whole "100 Things You Should Know About..." series on his own). Maybe by extensions and modifications to the easy (boring - he never talks about school) classes he's taking now, he can *find* something to get excited about. Maybe not this year, but maybe in Jr High or HS? Maybe in a summer program? I don't know. I'm just afraid he's already gone on academic autopilot.

    He asked us to stop reading him bedtime stories when he was about 6-7. I have to screen a lot of the books in the Teen section of the library for him, b/c the content is too mature. But when I find a good book or series (he loves fantasy series) I get them for him. As I said, he found The Hobbit on his own, he read Narnia years ago, he's read Twain and T.H. White (was really into Merlin about 2-3 years ago). Occasionally I'll hand him a nonfiction book - he read A. Lincoln and Why Evolution is True this summer. He's still very interested in paleontology, archaeology, and astronomy, whenever I find an article in the WSJ on a new discovery or theory I point it out to him and sometimes we'll do research online to find out more. But it's not like he'll just pick up a nonfiction book on his own anymore. So I'm hoping that by requiring more research of him for his science and social studies classes, he can be motivated to explore more and maybe rekindle those interests (or find new ones) without me having to "find" interesting stuff for him.

    The kid is a walking encyclopedia - I don't think he forgets a single fact about nature or science or history once he's read it. It's just that "commitment to exploration" that's missing. And it's been creeping up on him for the past few years - seems like the longer he spends in public schools, the less interest and effort he puts into anything. When he was a toddler, preschooler, kindergartner, even 1st-2nd grade I'd say, he was just interested in *everything* and always wanted to find out "more". Now he seems apathetic about learning most of the time, unless DH or I point out something about a new scientific discovery and then help him research it. Most of the time he just wants to read (or re-read) fantasy books and play Gameboy. I hate that thing! My mom got him a used one at a yard sale last summer, then he begged us to let him use his own $ to buy a DS (but we gave it to him for Xmas instead), and now he takes it *everywhere* (except school). He plays it in the car on a 15-minute drive to go out to dinner, to my parents' house, etc. and plays it all weekend and nights after dinner, except for when he's reading. Of course I don't mind him reading LOTR, but I think he can stop re-reading Redwall and Warriors and other series that he read years ago and find something *new* and maybe a bit more advanced? I mean, I have my favorites I used to like to read over and over again (anything by Michener!) but I'd go a year or more before rereading a book - there were so many *new* books to read!

  • mahatmacat1
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    anele, I'm so glad to read your post :) When your DD writes the children's constituion, do let us know! (btw, there's a document by the UN called the Declaration of the Rights of Children she might be interested in).

    And never ending, WOW about your son's eloquence. That line should be put on a banner around every teeny-tiny youth sports league. Thanks for sharing it.

  • bellaflora
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My DS got this letter every year too. His score is high on state STAR exam (980/1000) but trust me, he is far from being a genius LOl :-D Considering that his school's average API score is 970 I feel he's just in the middle of the pack. My friend's DD goes to another school w/ even higher API score. So even though her score is 999, her mom points out that she's only average because the Asian subgroup's average score is 999 LOL ;-D. My DS' school doesn't have a GATE program. What's the point when most of the kids in his class are identified as GATE. The school's bigger problem is to bring the "under-average" kids up to par.

    I would look at the class's average to see if your DS is indeed advanced comparing to his peers, or merely at school's average. If he's indeed way ahead of his peers' score, then I would find out how can he be instructed at his level. At my DS' school, the kids take pre-test to see which homework package they would get (challenged or non-challenged). They are also divided up into math level blocks & each teacher would assume a block for 2 weeks. This is to ensure that the kids would be taught at level. There is really no stigma with being in the "lower level" because some kids can be in the higher level in one unit and lower in another. Your DS should not be given the "choice" of doing work at advanced level. If my DS is given a "choice", he would pick the easiest way out (easiest homework, easiest book, etc.) LoL

    I don't think the older kids got 'waning' interest. They are just not into the same interests that we want them to be into. My DS loves games but now the DS is just too easy for him. Even Xbox 360 games are too easy. He can beat most of the teenagers we know when he was 5. He likes xbox 360 live because it enable him to be "challenged" but yikes! what a waste of time. I let him play w/ my photoshop and he's becoming very good at it. DH teaches him some programming and that got his juice going. He likes to try to figure out "cheats" & "hacks" for games like clubpenguin so he can get some "freebies" for his sister LOL :-D I don't know why are kids into those things. I'm sure there are things that interest your DS, you just have to find out what they are :-D

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks bellaflora. I don't know what the subtest averages are for our school, the composite SAS for the 5th grade was 113 according to the principal (not printed in records). DS's composite was higher than that (the CogAT has a SD of 16, the school average was therefore w/i 1 SD of national but DS was more than 2 SDs). Even his "weak" area of nonverbal was higher than that, and the "strength" quantitative was *much* higher (only got 1 ? wrong). I don't think there are many (any?) kids in his class that tested that high in math, but there must be some "advanced" kids for the teacher to offer this to every year. Don't know how many this year, but she said she had 12 kids do this particular challenge last year. Even if this isn't up to "his level" it's *something* that he has to work at and not just equations he can solve on the bus, or in 5 minutes at home.

    No Xbox in this house! We have 1 TV, and DD is the main watcher (I try to pry her away from it but we started a bad habit a couple years ago while building the house, my mom let her watch all the time and I slipped into it too once we moved in and I was still trying to finish things). I took the Gameboys away and put them in my room last night - DS never asked for them (but then he had a Scout Court of Honor from 6-8pm, earned a few badges).

    I did ask DS this w/e what he was interested in, the answers were "Pokemon" and "reading". He said he was still interested in trick or treating and I assumed it was b/c of the candy, but he said he still liked getting dressed up too :-)

  • anele_gw
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    flyleft-- I will show that to DD!

    And ITA with flyleft re: your son, neverending.

    ajsmama: Interesting what you report about your son's lack of interest in learning at school but what that he likes video games. I've inc. a link below with some thoughts you may have not heard regarding video games. If you ask my DD what she likes to do, she would say play with her cat, LOL! But if you spend time with her, then you see there is much she is interested in.

    One thing I've learned this last year that changed me was something to the effect of, "Playing with Barbies would not have damaged me, but hearing my parents put down something I enjoyed did."

    My own example . . .when my now 4 yo was 3, she LOVED Hannah Montana. Loved her. I have no idea how/why-- no one has ever seen her show in our house. Maybe she heard her once at the Disney Store, which we rarely frequent. I was against HM, completely. Then I read that quote and thought-- what harm will a T-shirt do? A brush with her image? A microphone? Well, she is 4 now and let me tell you, it did no damage. (She is not interested in her anyway now.) What I would do with the Gameboy thing is play WITH your son. Ask him questions about Pokemon. Share his interests. You will be making such a strong connection with him that I assure you, he'll remember that forever.

    Some neat articles:
    http://sandradodd.com/articles
    http://sandradodd.com/videogames/

  • 2ajsmama
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't let DS hear me "put down" the Gameboy, but I do tell him occasionally that he doesn't need to bring it in the car. My 9-yr old cousin is also a Pokemon fanatic, the 2 boys get together whenever they can and discuss it, trade cards, sometimes play (but it's hard to set up for shared play according to DS). Sometimes Mike will call with a question for DS about how to move on to a certain level. I'll just stick to more "age-appropriate" (for me!) topics to discuss with him - I'm a little too old to share Pokemon interest, you know how silly us old-timers look when we try to act like kids. We do fine with the Red Sox (too bad they're eliminated - again), science, nature, Scouts.

    He started the math challenge last night (after doing math HW anyway - his choice). He was very excited about it, just had to ask DH for some help accessing the data on the websites the teacher gave. He told her about it today, she's sending out another email and is giving DS extra credit for reporting the problem (though DH was the one who figured out how to work around it). He hasn't even asked where his Gameboys are.

    We went through the "banned" characters with both kids. I bought HM juice even though I don't like her (DS says she can't sing). It's good juice. But when the kids were young, DH banned Barney and Teletubbies from our house - more for our sanity than anything!

  • anele_gw
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    RE: "I'm a little too old to share Pokemon interest, you know how silly us old-timers look when we try to act like kids"

    It's not about you trying to act like a child. Let's take baseball. I hate baseball. I mean, really hate it. I think it's dull and pointless. But wouldn't you know it . . .my husband is a huge baseball fan (it's probably his #1 interest). So, you know what? I actually learned a lot about baseball for HIM. I ask him questions about it (I just learned about the infield fly rule last month!), am familiar enough with the players of his favorite team to have a decent discussion with him, and am happy to go to a game with him whenever we get the chance (and of course, I get him tickets for his birthday).

    I see this is a sign of respect. Imagine the feeling when someone takes an interest in something you do, not because they are actually interested in it, but because they CARE about you enough to do so. So, I am not saying you spend night and day playing Gameboy (though once you start you may!) or discussing nothing but Pokemon, I guarantee-- guarantee completely-- that taking even a small interest in those things that to you may seem trivial or even silly, will really strengthen the relationship that you already have (and it sounds like it is great already . . .this will just be the icing on the cake).

  • never_ending
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pokemon...At first I was leery of Pokemon. I did watch the shows with my oldest (Mr. GT Himself) and it always did seem to have a good moral to the story, so I said all right. It wasn't until my youngest (Another Mr. Smarty Pants) got into them I really paid more attention. My youngest is high energy and high creativity; collecting, sorting and arranging Pokemon cards stopped him cold for hours-boom! It was amazing, the facts, the groupings, the levels. Really still nothing I can relate to, but it does have its merits, if you look beyond the obvious. On the other hand I'm slow to recognize the merits of video games. I understand the challenges, I understand the social aspect, I am thankful my son still would rather stay home and play video games with his friends than be with a girlfriend begging to go places, and opening up another can of worms I'm not ready for-ugh! What I don't understand is the senseless violence of most of the video games out there especially as children get older, um can't any programmers think of something intriguing! I won't go on, I'm disgusted with all media these days and so wish I could lock up my kids from everything!