Big improvement.

Only issue that I see right away is the cooktop placement. It appears that the cook will be standing in a major traffic lane from garage to house. And with their back to the traffic to boot. This would bother me as a safety concern.

Have you considered placing it next to the ovens? This would get the cook out of the traffic pattern of people walking from garage to space. Or you could use under counter ovens an place on the island, giving a larger area available to move the cooktop.

Interesting observation, and I had not thought about that. The planned aisle there is 42" (or maybe a little more). Hubby loves to cook while looking into the family room. We don't have much in and out flow from the garage. I will definitely get his opinion on it. Thanks so much.

To me, it looks like the clean-up and prep areas should be reversed. Your eating area and breakfast bar are in the prep zone currently. Seems to me, I'd want my clean up sink, and dishwasher especially, near the eating area.

Can the base corner by the main sink open into the dining room? It would be a shame to waste the space.

dianalo, I love that idea however the wall in the dining room is a full run of cabinets. Hubby just now suggested we put a door into it from the garage side and place a small hot water heater in there that could supply the entire kitchen. We have a large hot water heater elsewhere that serves the rest of the house. Hmmm....

jenhp, I did consider that. We are often entertaining while prepping and handing out little snippets as we go, and I think I'd rather have them in that prep zone then have them viewing the dirty dishes stacked up after dinner. Thank so much for your thought and time!

I'm in a hurry this a.m. but had to give very quick glance since we're neighbors ;)

The one thing that jumps out to me is that your prep area is quite a distance and curving path to where all the food will be in the pantry and fridge area. I haven't seen any of your other layout trys to remember how you use your kitchen, but that would bug me. A lot. But that could just be me.

Gotta run to the big city now!

Prep space and mixer are also opposite ends of the kitchen from your ovens. Flipping the clean up and prep spaces would be a good start to resolving a lot of issues.

I'm not a big fan of island cooktops, but I've had a couple and lived. Just amke sure you know the tradeoffs.

Breezy, did you notice the sub-zero drawers on the end of the peninsula in the new design above? We have them now and use them a lot for produce storage in the top drawer and drinks and snacks in the bottom. It has quite a bit of capacity. Do they sway your opinion at all? Do you feel it would be better to have the clean up by the seating area therefore bringing the prep closer to the main fridge? Jenep felt that might be better.

Layout shouldn't be this tough. Before we thought of moving the living room wall, the design below is the best thing we could come up with in months of trying. I just couldn't pull the trigger because the function suffers so much and that has been the major reason that we've not made any progress for so long.

The dishwasher is too far from where the dishes/flatware would store. The trash compactor too far from the prep area. We would only have one set of 30" drawers, a couple at 24" and one at 18" wide. The cabinets to the left of the sink could only be 16" deep, as well as the pantry.

If you've got a magic wand, please give it a wave girlfriend!

With the exception of the fridge drawers we are using, our existing appliances are dying rapidly. The oven is dead and has actually removed already, the microwave died and we've borrowed a tiny one from our daughter. One of the coils on the cooktop actually exploded so I guess the rest of the unit is not far behind. I won't let hubby hook up the new appliances because I'm afraid if he does we will NEVER proceed.

Your new plan looks wonderful! Congrats on finding one that works, so well. It's much better than your earlier plans and the area with the stools is great! I like the cooktop on the island, too :)

Thank you lascatx, I agree that flipping the clean & prep areas looks like the perfect idea. However, what holds me back is actually being here in the house and realizing how everyone behaves while here.

Unfortunately, I cropped the top of the New plan, but you can see where it is labeled "Eating Area". That area, in back of the peninsula, and to the left into the family room are the hub of entertaining around here. People gather there for access to the patio, to hang out and look out at the koi pond just outside the windows. Also the prep sink area, as shown, is a major focal point from the family room. Because of that, for me the area "feels" better as a prep area rather than where the dirty dishes go. I do see how it looks right, I'm still considering given everything if it is right for this exact situation.

Thank you so much for your thoughts on this.

Comments on first post...

The island is a barrier b/w the refrigerator and the cooktop & prep sink. It would help to switch the Prep & Cleanup Zones, however, the island will still be a barrier for the cooktop.

In addition, how deep is that island? It should be at least 36" deep, preferably 43" directly behind the cooktop so you have 18" behind the cooktop if there is no seating directly behind the cooktop or, if you have seating, 49" so you have 24" behind the cooktop. Unfortunately, you still have the "barrier island" issue and the cooktop is still in the mudroom/rest of house path.

If you could switch the pantry & refrigerator and, preferably, recess the refrigerator into the back wall and, if needed, the LR so the refrigerator doesn't stick into the doorway OR expand the DR doorway to the right so it's at least 42" wide (which would move the ovens to the right as well a bit) - that would help the "barrier island" some. If you switched the prep & cleanup sinks, the refrigerator would still be easily accessed from the Prep Zone.

Have you considered turning the island 90 degrees so the cooktop faces the DR side? The Prep Zone could then remain on the peninsula. Yes, I know, you want the cooktop to face the FR, but you would still face half of the FR and, if there's a TV on the "bottom" wall, see the TV. It would just be a turn of the head to see the "top" of the FR. This fixes the mudroom/rest of house path, but, you still have the "barrier island" issue.

Keep in mind that since you only have 27" of workspace on either side of the cooktop it will not make a very good Prep Zone, so you will be using the peninsula for prepping (70% of the time spent/work done in the kitchen). Hmmmm...in which direction are those 27" drawer bases? If facing out the ends, then you only have about 24" or so of workspace on each side of the cooktop. I had 24" on each side of my range in my old kitchen and (1) it's inconvenient to try to split work b/w the two sections and (2) 24" was nowhere near enough space to work in - in fact, it was one of the #1 reasons we remodeled! I was constantly shifting things around to fit ingredients, tools, small appliances, bowls, etc. in such a small space!

IF the cleanup sink & DW and island all stay where they are, I strongly recommend switching the DW & 9" cabinet so the DW does not open into the back of someone cooking at the island. Right now, the DW door will open into the back legs of anyone standing in front of the cooktop - if they take a step back with a pot boiling water to dump, they risk bumping into the DW door and stumbling.

These aren't my finishes, but it shows the rough layout. I added a gray area to show part of the family room.

it would be way easier just to move.

I had to laugh at "it would be way easier just to move" because that is ALWAYS the first thing I feel.

Athome- You've got me rethinking my kitchen plan, after seeing that wonderful stool (baking?) area. I like the prep sink, too. Thanks for the new ideas! :)

I just want to say that I too was stuck, and finally realized that going out just one foot further than we had planned solved a multitude of problems!

Problem with your layout is that it is a 3-leafed clover with food going to all 3 leaves from the center intersection and with food arriving up the stem. The central area needs to allow cook to function at center of so many walkpaths and stuff paths and at non-cooking time the center area stands a chance of becoming a dumping ground.

Follow a bag of groceries into the room from the car. Do the same with dirty dishes being removed from the dining room and from table by patio. I suspect it's the area to the left of the cooktop that will be your most-used plunk space for these tasks. But it's also the work surface for the cook--fat spills, ingredients, perhaps a cutting board, gucky spoon, salt & pepper, etc. How organized are you? Gotta have a place to put all that working gear if you need that countertop to be clean and ready to receive stuff.

Include other occupants of the rooms when you try this exercise and imagine yourself having both hands full.

A straight-through walkpath, dead-ended work areas and plunk spaces are very very important.

How does your family actually cook--how many cooks, what ages and goals? Where do you eat most of the time? How much usage does your dining room get? Do you eat or drink at all in family room?

Is it possible to move the door from garage so it enters where your refrig is in current layout? Could you flipflop mudroom and lower kitchen? This might be especially helpful if you don't use the dining room very much.

I like the way the island stops your eye, from the family room, looking into the laundry area. Since there are no stools there, the island is a great place for the cooktop. I like that you don't have your back to everyone, while you cook!

Loving Bmore's plan with dishes stored right in the cleanup area. In the plan just above that, with the pantry in the cleanup area, I'd turn that into dish storage. The problem with that plan is lack of storage and lack of sizable workspace.

I can see that the plan you posted at the top has improvement over what you have now, but still has major problems. I don't believe one drawer of produce in the cooking area will stop you from the laps around the island to get to the main fridge. For prep and cooking I visit the fridge for much more than produce... Eggs, meat, milk, butter, sauces, etc, etc.

I know you say you want the cooktop facing out, but it has very little protection for a busy traffic area. I'd consider the cooktop where the cleanup sink is, the clean up sink where prep sink is, and prep in the island...facing out and visiting with family and guests.

I like BmorePanic's idea.

• You face the FR when you are prepping (70% of your work time)

• The cooktop/Cooking Zone (10% of your work time) is close to the Prep Zone...a simple turn from island to cooktop

• The refrigerator is a lot closer to both the Prep & Cooking Zones, it is also closer to the "eating area", it is a direct shot from the FR w/o snackers from that room getting in anyone's way, it is very close for unloading groceries (assuming you come in from the garage/mudroom), and the island is no longer a barrier b/w it and the Prep & Cooking Zones

• Overall, I think it opens up the area much better than the peninsula

Bmore- This is just me...but I would want a counterspace next to my wall oven...and not have it open in front of the doorway. Also, the dishwasher is a long way from the cooktop, so where are the dishes going to go? Would it be better to switch the main sink and prep sink?

I like that Athome's kitchen has a prep space, where she can visit with people at the nook and an island cooktop, so she can see the family room, while she's cooking. I know island cooktops are not always popular, but without stools there, I think it would work well, in her situation.

Of course, everyone has different ideas, but I've found that I'm stirring a lot more things on the range, as of late and I changed my plan, so I wouldn't have my back to everyone, while I'm cooking. My range would be more where Athome has her prep sink...but I fry a lot and like having a backsplash.

I only wish there was a window, over the main sink in Athome's design...but maybe some pretty dishes or a plant shelf with lighting? I like a little more open space above the sinks, with either windows or some decorative features, but again, that's just me :)

@Lavendar

The chef can visit with people in the family room, the breakfast area and at the island as all of those areas are open to prep. When the house is full of company, facing the breakfast room while doing prep may not work out well.

The decision to move the cook top is based on my own experience of having it not be that much different as long as you have things to look at. AND also trying to consolidate fragments of counter area into a large, usable area.

The dishes would be stored around the cleanup area - both in wall cabinets and in the tall cabinet. The dishes are only a couple of steps from the dining room and from the island. It is further to the breakfast area as opposed to being further to the dining room). Gotta pick one and the OP said they entertain a lot and the other use for the cleanup sink in that scenario is for a bar.

In the op's original plan, cleanup is further from the prep area but about the same distance from the breakfast room as the op's plan.

We have a "remote" clean up area and it doesn't exactly work the way you're thinking. It's easy to take stuff over there from the prep area and just dump it, then come back for cleaning when there's a break in the cooking action. Or dh does the cleaning while I'm still chefing. Having two completely different counters keeps it from piling up in the work area.

I don't consider taking something out of the oven, turning around and putting it down on the island a hazard - it's what I'd want to do with it anyway. If it was burning me, likely I'd sit it back down in the oven. I don't think its a big deal to temporarily open the oven so that it sticks out a few inches in front of the mud room door for one-two minutes. The time that I think its hazardous is when the oven opens into a circular path with kids running around.

Personally, I like a cooking surface facing outwards too. The problem FOR ME in having a narrow island with a cook top in it is that I would be likely to knock a pot over while to-ing and fro-ing. If I didn't do it, dh certainly would. Plus thinking of entertaining, I'm worried about all the guests as well as the narrowness. I don't know where the powder room is, but I'm guessing its back in the mudroom - so there will be people going behind the chef too. In family life, there will be people carrying laundry baskets weaving around that narrow cook top. Any oven placement I have ever seen isn't as dangerous as the cooktop in a narrow island in the middle of a pathway.

Plus, different people do stuff in different ways. If I wanted to block the vista into the laundry-mud room, likely I'd shut its door instead of using an island.

Thanks for your critique.

Bmore- No problem, I hope you'll critique the plan on my thread, too :)

My point is that we all use our kitchens differently. It's great that we can suggest what would work for each of us, or what might not work as well, functionally. That being said, the way I cook...it would never work to have the plates so far from the cooktop...or to carry them from that dishwasher to the cooktop area. It seems like that would make a great butler's pantry, so that's why I asked if the main sink and prep sink should be switched.

Since the oven opens into the mudroom doorway, I would be more concerned about kids entering from that space, than if it were only the laundry. I mean, how many kids want to be in the laundry room? LOL

If the cooktop is still a worry, what about a 6" backslash, behind the cooktop? That would take care of some of the problems and still give Athome a view of the family room. Just another idea :)

Great plan, bmore! Good use of space, very efficient with its clear separation of functions.

LL, studies show that most people use their cook top many more times than their ovens on a weekly basis. There are exceptions - there are always exceptions - but in general, people use their oven 3-4 times a week. Plus that wall next to the oven is fairly deep, likely deep enough to block most, if not all, of an open oven door. The likelihood of someone coming through that doorway into an open oven door is pretty slim.

athomesewing, I realize your husband likes to cook at the island (mine does, too, took me time to convince him to let me move the cook top to the perimeter) but perhaps when he realizes how well suited for entertaining bmore's island plan is, he might be willing to make this trade-off. That island would be a great place to serve appies or set up a buffet. The prep sink could double as a bar sink. You could also fill it with ice and canned or bottled beverages.

One other great thing about bmore's plan: no corner cabinets.

Well, at least everything fits.

But I took one look at the floor plan and immediately spotted some major problems.

First, the prep area could not be farther away from the food storage in the pantry and refrigerator, AND there is an island right in the path between the two areas so you would have to walk around it to get back and forth.

Second, the space the cook stands in at the cooktop is directly in the path of anyone using the mudroom door and there is insufficient space behind the cook for anyone to pass by without the cook having to move out of the way.

All kitchens are compromises between function and space, but these issues seem to me to be a deal breaker.

The solution, without making major changes in the plan, might be to rotate the island 90 degrees, and move the cooktop close to the end away from the door. The space in front of the cooktop needs to be 48" or more to allow someone to move around the cook without interfering. And rotating the island would allow you to walk between the food prep area and food storage without circumnavigating the island.

Weighing in on this issue...I have counterspace next to my oven and just happen to never put things out of the oven there. They always go across to the island for serving or across the other aisle to the stainless counters beside my stove for cooling...Even sometimes on the stove grates that work as cooling racks. Bmore's plan has the workspace advantage (but I think I'm repeating myself there, so apologize for that) and seems a dream for entertaining, as Lisa pointed out. Ice in the prep sink is also good for appetizers that need to stay cold like shrimp or certain dips.

Like RHome410, I rarely use my counter to the left of ovens for a landing space, I almost always use the counter across from the ovens...it's easier, IMHO.

As to oven use...I'm one of the exceptions to LL's comment about oven use - I use my ovens almost every day and my cooktop only 3 or 4 times a week. My ovens are in a "high" traffic area (the only path from FR & front of house to Kitchen, DR, LR, and Den) and right next to the pantry...and I have no problems with the location...it's set a back a bit from the aisle, as it is in BmorePanic's design. Personally, I think the location is fine.

As to pantry, I find I go to the pantry far less than the refrigerator even though I have no food storage (except spices) stored anywhere else in the kitchen. Yes, I do go to a couple of times, but I go to/from the refrigerator more often. My pantry is outside the kitchen and I'm OK with it. You might consider removing the wall next to the refrigerator in BmorePanic's plan and that little alcove and put a door to the pantry there so it's more accessible from the kitchen. It will also make it more accessible when bringing groceries in from the mudroom/garage (assuming you use the garage/mudroom).

I think BMore solved it for you. The pantry, although a similar shape to your old one, is way more functional. Just having that little extra room on the "N" side, makes it useable space again. And, when I cook, I rarely stand right in front of the stovetop looking out (I'm a leaner; so I stand/lean off to the side and stir as needed.) The best part is, there is a clear path from the mudroom through the kitchen. No need for kids to try to figure out which way to go. And, that path is safe.

bmore nailed it.

I can't thank you enough for the comments and attemepts at solving my problem. I admit, there have been laughs and a few tears. The frustration level with this project has become high, mostly because we can't get started.

I chuckled when it was mentioned that we entertain a lot, therefore keeping dishes close to the dining room is a good idea. Yes, we do entertain a lot however no one who comes here ever wants to be in the dining room! The kitchen and family room windows extend nearly to the floor, looking out on woodlands and a large koi pond and waterfall. So here it's casual, mostly moving between indoors and out. The "formal" dining room has more than 12 linear feet of cabinetry, with all manner of china and serving regalia that is never used. Company has been successfully herded there for meals 2 or 3 times in 20 years. It would better serve as my new sewing room!

It seems what has most people here bothered is the doorway to the mud room. Some seem to have the notion that the "rest of the house" is through that doorway. Actually the only thing in the mud room is the door to the garage, and a small powder room that hubby uses when he's working in the yard. I guess we could build a pantry cabinet in the mud room, but that's about it. The rest of the house is actually on the other side family and dining rooms. There are 2 other powder/rest rooms for guests over there. The opening to the mud room is not exactly a runway but it needs to stay.

The comment about the dishwasher was an excellent catch, and the refrigerator, the one thing not yet purchased, could easily narrow to 36" wide and no more than counter depth. It could then move down to open directly facing into the aisleway and full height cabinets could be placed on both sides. That makes the sinful barrier more of an L shape.

What I called a "prep" sink is probably is more aptly called an entertainment sink. Making lattes, teas and such at that counter. The main sink can and will serve many purposes, including prep work, actually both sinks will multitask.

The design generously created by bmorepanic, which so many of you favor, has it's own challenges. We have looked it over, and plotted it into the program to look at it in 3D. We also pushed the wall into the living room back a little further. Even with the pantry being a smaller version, it feels like the main sink is in a hallway and it is so far from everything. I'm not convinced that the12-inch available space behind the sink turns into cabinetry large enough to house dishes or flatware.

The big thing for me though; have you noticed how few cabinets remain? The refrigerator drawers aren't placed and still have to go in, leaving only one useable base cabinet in the prep wall and two in the island that face the work area, one small one facing the family room.

Buehl, I've seen your awesome cabinet layout with base cabinets numbering into the teens, so could you honestly organize yourself into: ...

I agree Bmore nailed it.

But if you don't want to give over that much space to a pantry again, here's a switch of prep, cleanup AND cooking that is functional and shelters the cooking zone.

A pantry could be worked in by the fridge or ovens.

AthomeSewing - I have no brilliant ideas for you but I can sympathize with you and say layout is SOOO hard! It took us forever to decide on our layout. I got lots and lots of feedback, tweaked things, kept working at it, and ultimately decided what compromises I was willing to make and rules I would break. (In my case, we don't have a ton of cabinets and I will have to store a lot of stuff in the pantry. I also have a narrow clean up area of only 18'' on one side of the sink and the DW on the other side of the sink in the prep area - heaven forbid, I know! I did appreciate most of the feedback I got but, I thought long and hard about how we use the kitchen and what matters to most. Ultimately, having the DW close to where the dishes and flatware would be kept was more important than having the sink divide the clean up and prep space.)

All that to say, don't be discouraged. Think about the feedback people are giving and if possible, see what can be incorporated. If nothing, you at least thought about it and know the potential drawbacks of your design. However, design for how you live and work in your kitchen.

Any chance you can mock up an island in the proposed place and see if it would feel like a barrier?

If you are curious, you can see all the feedback (some very, very negative) and agonizing I went through in the thread linked below. And for what it is worth, we are dealing with a similar basic layout, which is challenging.

Here is a link that might be useful: NewSouthernBelle's layout feedback

Thank you celticmoon, that is a layout we haven't tried yet. I appreciate this so much. We'll run it up in our program and try it out! (:

NSB. Thanks for your words of encouragement. We are trying to push forward but it's getting so old trying to come up with a layout that makes sense for us. I did go check out your thread -- ouch, that was a bit rough.

Hubby made us both feel better when he pulled up a couple versions of Top 10 Kitchens from HGTV's website. We saw all manner of sins throughout those! Traffic Flow issues, I swear half of them didn't have refrigerators, and as for Barrier Islands -- one even had a tree to work around! At least it had us laughing. We are reasonably certain none of them could have made it through a shake down here! LOL

Here's a link to one of the Top 10s, check out PHOTO #3 and notice the all-glass cabinets placed in FRONT of the windows! I think it looks beautiful.

I would love to see your finished kitchen and hope that you are loving it! Thanks again!

Here is a link that might be useful: Top 10

I will come back and look more later, but I just saw you comment about the prep sink as an entertainment sink. That is valuable, but don't under-estimate the value of a sink in your food prep area and for baking. Your layouts would be miserable for me without a prep sink since the baking is so far from clean up. Think about every time you have egg goo or dough on your hands. If you are going to have something in your kitchen, make it work for you. You won't be sorry. Gotta run to meet my dad at the dr. Back later.

In case you want to see more...

Here is a link that might be useful: Top 10 Amazing Kitchens

Athomesewing- Celticmoon's plan is very similar to yours. I like the location of the oven, in this plan, with the fridge closer to the range or sink...depending on which one you decide not to put, on the island. With the dining area, you won't have your back to people, regardless of what you put on that wall. That's so much nicer than trying to cook or use the sink, facing away from everyone.

Have you decided on cabinets, countertops, backsplash, etc? Are you using the same countertop on all the surfaces or mixing things up, a bit?