Deciding between HVAC bids

9 years ago

Hoping to get some advice on what system to go with. We are building a 1700 sq foot, 2 story modular home with attached garage and future 480 sq foot bonus room over the garage (will be unfinished at first, but we will finish the interior within about a year). We are doing exterior foam insulation for R-24 in walls and R-49 in ceilings. The ResCheck says 17% better than code and heat load of 39,000 BTU/hr for -10 degrees. 2583 sq ft of conditioned area not including the future bonus room in the garage. We will live in SE WI close to the lake.

We considered a geothermal heat pump and got quotes for a dual fuel system with a 2 stage natural gas furnace sized for 15 degrees of about $21,000 (keeping in mind all registers/returns are already done in the modular home) and a straight geothermal system of about $23,000. They both quoted a horizontal loop field because we'll have 10 acres to work with.

However, when I started looking into the actual costs it looked like we wouldn't save much money over a high efficiency natural gas system and we didn't really have the extra funds to shell out based solely on principle.

I am a little confused about what would be best for our set up. I've heard zoning makes your system oversized when you aren't using all zones. The bonus room would be used as an office (I work from home) and guest room/play room.

So I have quotes from 3 contractors I am trying to sort through.
Option 1: Trane system with $900 ductwork suggesting a separate zone for the garage bonus room at an additional $900 for the ductwork/dampers.
XV95 2 stage variable speed furnace $3800.00 OR
XC95 modulating variable speed furnace $4670.00 (includes thermostat which it requires)
AC
1. XB13 single stage $2625.00 OR
2. XL16i single stage $4290.00 OR
3. XR17 2-stage $4800.00
I would think because we only have maybe 5-6 weeks when AC is truly needed that we would go with the XB13.
TOTAL = $8225 for XV furnace and XB13 AC (including bonus room zoning/ductwork). Seems like the best deal.

Option 2: Lennox system $7367
One Lennox Elite EL296UH070XV36B 96% 2-stage variable speed furnace
One Waterfurnace Cased coil for a future Geothermal dual fuel system
One Lennox Healthy Climate 10 MERV air cleaner with an extra filter upon completion
Honeywell Focus PRO 5000 non-programmable thermostat.
Low Voltage Wiring
Plus: Merit 13ACX-030 13 SEER R-410a AC unit for additional $856
TOTAL = $8223

Option 3: Armstrong
(1) Armstrong 95% efficient two-stage variable speed 45,000 BTU furnace
(1) Armstrong 13 SEER 2 1/2 ton central air conditioners
Nest learning thermostat
Nothing for garage bonus room (recommended getting separate in wall unit for AC in bonus room and space heater/baseboard units for heat).
TOTAL = $8936 for everything

Any informed opinions would be appreciated!
We don't know yet how we'll insulate the bonus room. I was considering spray foam (perhaps DIY).

Thanks!

This post was edited by chervena_chuska on Mon, May 12, 14 at 1:34

Comments (9)

tigerdunes
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
To be clear, this will be propane or nat gas fueled furnace?

I will comment on the Trane. Not a fan of the Lennox brand and since the Armstrong quote is higher than Trane, I doubt you would consider .

Just so you know, both the Trane furnaces are oversized based on the heating load calculation. And be certain you are aware the XV95 will require a two stage thermostat to keep you from running on high stage whether needed or not.

I would want a box filter media cabinet on any system you select. For Trane, their Perfect Fit model.

While the XB13 AC condenser is Trane's low end entry level model, I do not consider it builder grade. However, I would at least move up to the XR13 model.

IMO
chervena_chuska
Original Author
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Thanks Tigerdunes for the feedback! That is helpful!

Yes, this would all be natural gas (we have to run a line from the road but it seems worth it).

Curious why you say the Trane furnaces are oversized - could it be because they are taking into account the bonus room? Could this significantly impact the energy efficiency?

Do you think the Armstrong furnace is worth the extra money? This company told me that Trane sometimes tries to get too fancy with components and they are proprietary or hard to replace if something breaks.

Thanks!
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YES! to all of the above, sort of. from my experience...MOST will work with you and want your business. I got bids from 5. It was obvious one didnt care, threw out a price and said see ya. The other was high, but also did not want to come down too much. The 2 I decided on basically went back and forth. I was honest, and did not hide bids from others. I let them all see what others were providing and for the cost. What I ended up getting was things like upgraded equipment for the same price, taxes included, and some return ductwork included. I did not flat out ask for a price reduction. I let the other numbers do the talking. However I also made it clear the bottom dollar is not the deciding factor. You pay for great service and install, so that is also important. The 2 I was deciding between (Lennox dealer and Trane) both were ranked very high in the area for installs and both offered great service so far with the bids, my endless questions, etc. For the bid, I had them list EVERYTHING I was getting. Specific return duct work runs, all model numbers of equipment including coil, tax, permits, even clean up. You are paying them 6k+, I do not think it is out of line to request a few extra words to be written down. The bid might be the total, might not be. That is something you need to ask. Specific questions like does it include tax, thermostat, permits, etc (unless this is listed) Best of luck on your purchase.
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duct leakage can be mininized if all ducts, plenums, supply boxes & return air are mastic sealed. not duct tape, not foil tape. paint on mastic applied nickel thick or mastic tape like Hardcast brand 1402 mastic tape. x2 mike's post. also, 13 SEER a/c just meets the legal mininum allowed by law (code) 15-17 SEER heat pumps will provide a better savings & quickly re-coup the extra costs. variable speed air handlers will help to handle summertime relative humidity. get the load calc based on your plans, specific insulation values & types, orientation, window shgc & ufactors. building a home this size invest in an independent load calculation (manual J) duct sizing & design. then shop the load calc you own to hvac companies. have enteries in load calc based on design temps for your area & reflect the specifics of your build. hvac should be sized for average temps and not the 5 days per year of extreme temps. this is why there are specific design temps to be used. otherwise the hvac companies will run a quick load not release it to you until you sign a contract and you get what they decide to make the load calc verify. it is common practice to not release load calc as homeowner can use the company that did the calc's to shop job to other companies. foam insulating the roofline will put ducts in semi conditioned space & save you about 20-30% in energy costs. upgrading to foam will also reduce tons of hvac required. take it a step further & use foam sheathing on exterior walls, tape the seams & caulk it air tight. a tight home is an efficient home. bid one mentions fresh air intake. this MAY be necessary but should be planned for & designed. damper is set to cubic feet per minute (cfm) of air required by ASHRAE 62.2 ventilation strategy, not just a random amount. blower door testing of house, duct testing of ducts should also be done. oversized hvac systems cost more upfront to purchase, more to operate, contribute to high RH in the home. sizing the systems is the best investment that you can make now for comfort and affordability. think about hiring an efficiency expert. resnet.us is a good place to start. best of luck.
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Now that you have discovered you have natural gas, are you going to investigate who much it will cost to bring a pipe into your house? I don't see in the load calculation the R values for the walls and attic? Do you know what values were used for spray foam and batt insulation? Do you know how the spray insulation will be installed in the attic? Will it be open or closed cell? The firs quote is for a 4 ton single stage heat pump (XR15) while the second is for a 5 ton variable speed heat pump (XV20i) which is Trane's top of the line product. It is not a fair apples to apples comparison, but the price gap is big. You need to ask about the size for the second quote.
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tigerdunes
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Your last statement from the Armstrong dealer is nonsense.

The XV95 is high eff, has two stages of heat around 36 on low, 56 on high. Requires 2 stage thermostat which is important.

The XC95 modulates between a range of 40-100% of output.

Smallest available for both is a 60 K BTU.

So according to your post, load calc for heating is around 40 K.

Not sure the XC95 is worth an extra $600. Did dealer offer a thermostat for the XV95. Again it will require a two stage model.

IMO
chervena_chuska
Original Author
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I just asked them about the 2 stage thermostat for the XV95. I liked what I heard about the Nest Learning Thermostat. Seems to offer some of the convenience of the internet control without the huge price tag. Would that handle the 2 stage set up?
mike_home
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
The first generation Nest could not handle 2-stage equipment. Some people have had good success with the Nest, others have had problems. There are better choices out there. The learning mode is a gimmick in my opinion.
chervena_chuska
Original Author
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
OK, I heard from the company offering the Trane system. He would insist on a 2 stage thermostat as well.

He did say that this is the smallest unit they carry so it is oversized for the size of the house but he thought the first stage would meet be close to our size most of the time and then the higher stage would be available when we were heating both zones (the bonus room and the main house) to meet the larger need. Does that make sense?

I'm surprised the choices seem so limited that we'd have to go significantly oversized because while our house is on the smaller side of houses being built new these days, I didn't think it would be so outsized. Is that due to the extra insulation reducing the heating need?

I'm just worried about the impact of this on energy efficiency and comfort (we live in a drafty 1100 sq foot apartment right now with a 50 year old GE furnace that is surely way oversized and it gets really cold, heats up fast then gets really cold again during normal winter weather (not extreme cold)). Was hoping to leave such behavior behind!

Would it be worth it to put in the XC 95 fully modulating furnace on the idea that it could adjust more smoothly given the system is oversized? It apparently has 60 speeds to choose from...
tigerdunes
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
What Mdl thermostat did dealer recommend for the XV95?

I want to check behind him.

You'll be running on low stage most of the time if the correct thermostat is installed. However, it's like buying something you will rarely use-the high stage. Frankly your situation points out a gap in Trane furnaces based on size. I have seen this before and this gap exists in other brands as well. If you want to pursue this and get a furnace closer to your load calc, then look at Rudd/Rheem. I really wouldn't fret over this but it's something you need to know.

The idea of the XC95 is you use what you need based on demand. Of course you see that comes with a higher price. Your decision of course but if Trane, I would stay with the XV95.

IMO
chervena_chuska
Original Author
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Just so I understand: Do you mean the energy savings from a more properly sized unit versus running in the low stage of a too large unit would not be that significant?

Why would you stay with the XV95 - do you think the extra speeds don't make that much difference?

Thanks for all your help!
chervena_chuska
Original Author
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
OK, got some answers on the other comments:

On the media cabinet: We custom build a cabinet that a perfect fit media filter fits into. This is already included as we really need a good filter when selling a customer a unit that uses the constant fan mode.

Besides the Nest thermostat, they offer:
We use a honeywell model 6000 with wifi.

Deciding between HVAC bids

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