The two colors on your sink looks terrible, as does the overlap on one sink corner. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this mess! Is there someone higher-up that you can contact, and did you pay for the entire job already?

Hi Timbo59,

I just posted my own sad saga about my kitchen cabinets and was about to sign off when I saw your post. I viewed your photos and definitely think the color match is a big problem, and they did a messy job on the installation and sink cut out. If you go online and find out who makes your sink, you can probably see photos of it installed and zoom in and take a closer look and print it for these guys. Or do a google image search.

I can't see the bump but take your word for it and that would bug me as well!

Your kitchen is a lot bigger than mine, but it is not gargantuan, so ALL of your granite should have come from a single slab. In addition, the place to cut the granite would not be in the middle of your sink - to me that is just super obvious even with a good match. The corner is where they should have joined it. i.e. the piece on the sink wall with the sink cut out should be a single piece.

How did you pay for this, and how much of your $$ do they already have?

Oh My. I can see your frustration.
What bothers me the most of your entire nightmare is the
response of the owner/manager.

Did he offer a discount? Give you a reduced fee? How did he
offer to remedy this situation?

Behind the Range, I did not want a granite backsplash
either. My Fabricator created a 2 inch by 36 inch piece
that slid in (with epoxy)behind my range so it looks like
the granite comes around the range. I love this look. You
can not even see the tiny seams. It is perfect. Could they
do this for you? Silly question they should have offered this.

Sink?
Should have been smoother that is what templating is for.
Did they provide your sink or was this installed by you
separately. My fabricator needs the sink to create perfect
edges. He won't do a sink cut out with your sink, for this
reason.

I am not certain about the staining with silicone on
granite hopefully someone else will know.

As for color matching, I had less sq footage (I assume from
looking at your pictures) and my fabricators used 2 slabs
but had a 3rd ready if they needed to match my seams colors
etc perfectly. I think with your size you would probably
need 2 slabs but they should be the same color batch. The
only reason they would not be is the fabricator is using
the slabs you chose but instead to save money remnants.

I wish Kevin or James were around GW to see this. They
always have great advice.
~boxer

Ps. The check list is probably too late but I thought I
would post it as there could be some valuable information
for how they SHOULD have done things.

Here is a link that might be useful: Stone Information and Advice (& Checklists)

Its a terrible job. I doubt it can be fixed.

I'd take the guy to small claims court, get a full refund and hire someone else.

I don't know what to say to help you, I just know if it was me I would be flipping out.

The sink isn't right. Either they installed it wrong (too far forward or they didn't cut it right.

How did you pay? Credit card? Any chance you can call the cc company and explain, perhaps they can put the put the payment on "hold", that always seems to get the attention of a business. Or was it a check? Has it cleared? If not perphaps call the bank and explain. Maybe they can help you.

Personally, I know this is extreme, but if I was so unhappy, I would want my money back and have them remove the counters, ask for compensation for the damage done to your cabinets or home and find another installer because I'm not sure I would want this unprofessional company back in my house to install anything else. But that sounds like a huge headache, and it is easy for me to type it because I'm not the one dealing with it. If the owner of the business didn't have such a bad attitude then of course I would be all for giving them a second chance, but he sort of ruined it.

Best of luck and I'm sorry you are having such trouble.

I almost forgot--did you see any samples of their work first? Do you know anybody else who used them?

Here's a direct link to your photos.

Here is a link that might be useful: Your slideshow

Hi Guys. Seems like court is the only way to go (we've paid him in full) because this guy just won't take a backward step - it's all our fault, our walls/cabinets threw everything off, we're just being SOB's who are unreasonably nit picky over the color mismatch, etc, etc, etc. As bad as it feels getting stuck with this counter top, we have to get insulted by this guy coming into our home and hitting us with this glib routine that he thinks we're fool enough to buy.

I appreciate the feedback though, because as I said, this is our first time round with granite and we just weren't sure how much right we had to feel aggrieved over things like the sink cutout, and so on.

And to answer a question on the point, the sink actually came from the same guy, so he should be more than familiar with the unit and the cutout required to fit it in.

Thanks again

When I see things like this I always wonder if the company took your job and then subbed it out to a less qualified fabricator because they were overbooked. I think people would be appalled if they knew how often that happens.

We had this happen recently at work. Took bids and selected the company to do the work, and the workers showed up, and low and behold a company dropped from the process showed up to do the work - the company that got the bid subbed the job as nothing was in the contract stating who exactly would be doing the work.

I sure hope you get this all worked out, that countertop looks horrid and I don't think anyone in their right mind should be expected to accept that.

You have some legitimate gripes, some grey areas, and some issues in which you are wrong. The color mismatch and the sink mounting are two issues that need correction/replacement. The matching issue should have been solved at templating time when you viewed your templates on the slabs and selected how the seam went together. If your fabricator didn't offer that service, then it's his fault. The fabricators typically use the sink manufacturer's template for that cutout, and some brands of sinks are less than accurate to their template, notably some of the no name Chinese brands that they offer "free". This possibly can be adjusted for better fit.

The gap against the oven cabinet is a cabinet issue, not a granite issue. It's caused by incorrect cabinet installation. The side of the oven cabinet was not skinned. That 3/8" reveal should have a skin on it to be flush with the cabinet face frame. That's standard practice, and it's something that most fabricators will not template around as it's too small and delicate of a detail.

The gap against the wall is with acceptible limits, especially given that you are installing a backsplash. The difference in height of the slabs is probably within stone guidelines acceptable tolerances, but a better layout chice could have been made such as putting the "oddball" slab on the island rather than attempting to abut it. In a less prominent place, it really would be mostly OK.

These are issues that you see when you get inexperienced and careless low bid fabricators and lesser quality granite. Since you've already paid them, the only recourse you're likely to have is a civil suit.

I feel so bad for you! The color mismatch at the sink is really bad, and as another poster stated - they shouldn't have even put a seam at the sink. I feel so fortunate that my granite install went so painlessly, and was a perfect fit. My kitchen is U-shaped so I had 2 corners and there was absolutely no gap at all. They had guaranteed me it would fit within 1/32" and it did.

A couple of your pictures, I couldn't see what you're seeing, but the seam at the sink (as well as the edge around it) is definitely not acceptable.

I'm so so sorry. It is a lousy job...you are not being too picky. I have no advice but I really hope that you can get some resolution.

Ooof, sorry you're dealing with such shoddy customer service. They should do what they have to do to correct the problems and make you a satisfied customer. The unmatched colors... wow... how could anybody in their right mind say that is correct, and try and pass it off as correct? I could never feel ok about selling that! And that they dare come in to your house and make you feel they way they're making you feel is awful. I have no good advice... just wishing you the best of luck and please let us know the outcome whatever it may be!! ~E

Wow! How did they get you, to pay everything up front? This co, look's like their, trying to play with the big boy's. Bad job, do not except this. Do what you, have to do to get it fixed. You, do not deserve this kind of work. Good Luck!

@ Live wire oak.

Just a few points.

As far as viewing templates at fabrication time, I wasn't even aware that such a service was offered as standard practice - it was certainly never offered to us, or we most certainly would have taken the opportunity to participate as we were nervous about getting a close color match. We have since had two people come round to take a look, and each one has said the same thing, that the mismatched section looks like it comes from another slab that only approximates the rest of the counter in color. It has more of a reddish base to it, while the remainder of the counter-top is more creamy.

Secondly, the gap is an issue because the counter overhang is not covered by the back-splash, a point we clearly made to the measurer - the back-splash is going to be in line with the edge of the end wall cabinet and the matching end base cabinet below. Thus the protruding section of the counter top isn't in play - to take that into account would leave the back-splash protruding past the wall cabinet by nearly two inches, leaving an illogical and untidy section jutting out past the cabinets. The guy who did the measuring gave us his assurance that the template would take the issue into account. I have since been told by another fabricator that a common practice with uneven walls such as ours is to notch the drywall on the 'bumps' in order to seat the granite firmly against the rest of the wall. That's actually what I expected them to do in order to fulfill my request for the end piece to sit flush against the wall.

I'm also intrigued about your point regarding the back-splash in so far as how one would approach shaping a tile cut to approximate the rounded edge of a counter top?

Also, I'm a bit confused about your point for the oven cabinet to be 'skinned' - it must be American woodworking terminolgy that I'm unfamiliar with - I'm an expat Aussie. I installed the cabinets myself and know that the oven cabinet is perfectly in square with the base next to it, because I made sure it was with a view to the granite installation - I even indicated as such to the measurer by placing a builders right angle on the base cabinet butting up against the wall oven unit. Unfortunately there's a slight hollow in the wall directly behind the cabinets - I had to shim them about 3/8" away to compensate - and showed the measurer where the issues were in order to ensure that he didn't throw his measurements off by taking readings off the walls - or of the installers sliding the granite in hard against them later (which they did, accounting for the inclined gap). Had the granite been lined up on the front edge of the cabinets (with the overhang taken into account of course) and trimmed at back then the slab would have lined up near perfect with the wall oven cabinet.

As for the sink, we bought the unit from the same guy, so you'd think he'd have a pretty decent idea of the cut out required, particularly as he's carried it for at least the year or since we first started browsing in his store.

I could have mentioned all this earlier, but it would have made a long post even longer.

Regarding the irregularities in thickness, I have been told that it is quite common for slabs to have variances because of the way they are cut, ground, and polished. But I was also told that a good installer takes this into account. What I didn't picture - I didn't want to bombard everyone with a multitude of photographs - is that the sink looks very odd because of the irregularity. They were able to grind away the difference on the front, but as for the sink you can clearly tell the difference. On one side the granite sits nice and tight near the stainless steel of the sink. On the other side of the join there is a distinct separation all round the visible section of the edge. They had to put a big gob of silicone in to fill up the gap.

Its actually pretty common to put the seam at the sink because its the shortest distance to match. Ours is there and you have to look for it to see it.

We had seen the cardboard strips used for templating and expected that's what our guy would use. When I saw him making his out of sheets of luan I asked about it and he said that the cardboard method isn't as good. A lot can happen to it between the kitchen and the shop - the luan is more durable.

Timbo-
I am so sorry this has happened to you! I posted some granite sagas earlier in the month (I'll have to find them and post links) about some of these very issues. My walls are also slightly untrue, and you would not believe the bull I was being told about the resulting gaps that would be "impossible to avoid by ANY fabricator". I agree with you that Live wire oak's statement about you having a problem with your cabinet installation may not be accurate. I have the same problem and it is an issue of the walls being slightly untrue- not crooked cabs.

It has taken me an extra month (maybe more), but I did my research with the help of these amazing GWers, asked all of the right questions, and after "interviewing" about 7 companies, found one that I think will do the job correctly.

I would do everything I could to recoup my money if I were you, and then look for a fabricator with the following in mind:

- find a company through personal recommendations so you have firsthand accounts of their work.

- find someone who is bbb accredited or has a good grade with the bbb.

- find someone who uses digital templating and CNC fabrication. This will ensure that their template will match your wall- even if that wall is wavy! Some companies even use software to make sure the color and movement of the slabs line up so it looks like one piece of stone even at the seams.

- visit their showroom to see what they do. My fabricator spend a half hour excitedly showing us their seamwork and telling us about their process. It was like a little kid telling you about his new bike - they were so genuinely excited about their work and the beautiful seams they manage to create. When I called later to schedule templating, the guy told me that he had been thinking about our installation some more after we left (!) and had some ideas to share. Very very cool.

- read contracts before moving forward. Don't sign anything that releases them from any resposibility if there are gaps present. Don't sign anything that commits you to full payment upfront. Half at templating and the other half after installation and you are COMPLETELY satisfied.

- ask about the warranty on their work. Many places offer none. Find out what is covered. My company will even come out and repair a chip, let's say by the sink- if you should bang a pot into it or something- for free, for life, as long as I am still the owner.

- find out how long the company has been in business. Many creeps change their names every year to avoid legal and financial problems. Very shady. So a 10 year or lifetime warranty means nothing if they go out of business every year.

That is all I can think of for now. Hopefully the things I have learned will help you too, and I really hope you get your money back! I don't know how these creeps sleep at night, honestly. It may cost a bit more and take some time to find a great fabricator, but it will pay off!

My granite goes in on the 10th, so I will update! Good luck!!

I'll add a few things from my experience. My company designs and builds custom cabinets. In our projects we have found that there are very few great granite fabricators in our area (metro area 1M +).

Couple of things:

1. Granite is heavy and requires muscle to install. These big strong guys may not be the best at the fine details.

2. Some companies have a big disconnect between the salesman, templator, fabricator, and install team. -It's easy for details to fall through the cracks. Ask questions. Example: How long have you been with the company, the cutters, install crew leader, etc.

3. CNC cutting and digital (photo) templating is great. However, this technology isn't a substitue for craftsmanship. Ask where seams will be placed, overhangs, etc.

4. Negative BBB ratings are a red flag, but a lot of small to medium sized business feel the BBB isn't worth the expense. Get references from recent cutomers (not contractors or builders).

5. A lot has changed in the home improvement/building market in the last two years. Some granite companies previously did a lot of volume with builders (that tend to be driven by price and not quality). These outfits may not be the best for working directly with a homeowner that wants things done right.

6. After the tops are installed it's a lot of work to tear them out. Tops go in near the end of a project and many customers are worn out and just want to get the project finished. Granite companies will offer to take off a few hundred dollars rather than fix the mistakes. For a small gap like the one near the oven cabinet this may be ok. However, you will look a the seam everytime you use the sink.

good luck.

Rwwood-

Yes!! awesome point about the CNC fabrication- I should have added something about that. The company I ended up with is one that cuts most of the granite by hand which is a great thing too.

Listen to these guys, Timbo. Their knowledge and advice are priceless!

What Livewire Oak means about the "skin" on the oven cabinet:

With a face frame cabinet, unless you get an upgraded "furniture end" with most companies, the face frame extends beyond the side of the cabinet by something like 1/4". A "skin" is a panel of this thickness that is used to fill in this space.

When I have had kitchens spec'd not every cabinet salesperson has offered them automatically, so if you don't know about them already, you may not be told about them. It is not always necessary to use them, and I have had clients turn them down as an extra expense particularly on base units if the sides are finished already. You could get something like this to apply now, to cover the gap and the scratched area, but in my opinion the sink area looks so awful that its a theoretical point.

The problem with small claims court is even if you win, you still have to collect.

Does he have a Home Improvement Contractor license from the NYC Dept of Consumer Affairs? If he does you can file a complaint with them. Since you mentioned he has a "store" and he sent his employees to work in your residence, he should have one. If he does, the DCA can lean on him - I've seen them play hardball and it's gratifying.

First send him a letter (registered, return receipt) itemizing the defects, including pictures and telling him to fix it. When he ignores you (and he will) you file your complaint.

You posted this on the Brownstoner forum and never came back. We in NYC are very interested in the name of this hack

Please. The name.

How did this saga turn out--
any followup

I'd like to know also. Hope their issues were resolved.