AC Replacement/Upgrade

10 years ago

Hi,

I am upgrading both upstairs and downstairs AC/Heat units in my house. Old units are both Train and are 17 years old and cost of repair vs. replacement seems to point towards replacement. Contractor recommended the following:

Upstairs (AC + Gas heater)
- XR15 with XV80 furnace

Downstairs (gas pack)
- XB/XL13c

This is our primary residence and we are in NC (gets hot and humid in the summer). Do we have the right system here or do you recommend something else?

Thanks!

Comments (12)

tigerdunes
10 years ago
I assume you have a gaspak for downstairs system now.

I would recommend the XL14c gaspak or even the XL14c in the hybrid DF model.

IMO
CT96
Original Author
10 years ago
What is the benefit of XL14c over XL13c?
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When having uneven floor temps, it is very important not to be using oversized cooling & heating equipment. Longer runtimes with the dampers set for the different heating & cooling seasons will help even out floor temp differentials.. In northern SC, the 2.5% summer design is near 91ÃÂ°F dry bulb with a 17ÃÂ°F wet bulb drop for about 50% Relative Humidity. Therefore, you need a smaller A/C with longer runtimes to get the humidity level down to 50% or lower within your home for comfort. I would estimate that a in a properly weatherized home in your climate, a 3-Ton unit would cool & properly dehumidify your home. I'll put a link to a FREE Whole House load-calc. Use the calculator with the software to figure the infiltration CFM. I'd use 0.4 ACH X's the volume of your home in cu.ft. of air. Okay; 2000-sf X's 10' ceilings is 20,000-cu.ft. * .4-ACH is 8000-cu.ft., it will give the amount; but using * .0167 it's 133.6-CFM; enter on the correct line so it figures the latent & sensible loads correctly. Here is a link that might be useful: FREE Whole House Load-Calc
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A properly sized unit should be able to maintain reasonable humidity levels (though maybe not at 78 degrees without a dehumidification mode). The dual-stage unit will help control humidity. The only way of extra dehumidification with the XL16i that I know of is with the TCONT803/Honeywell TH8321 thermostat, which will overcool to control humidity. Ask your contractor why he proposed the VisionPRO IAQ when the BK terminal is already in use by the XL16i, thus not allowing the dehumidification feature of the VisionPRO IAQ (which is great as it actually slows down the blower). If you want an alternative that can make use of the VisionPRO IAQ, I'd go with the XL15i. It's a single-stage unit, but sized properly it should control humidity fine with the added advantage of the VisionPRO IAQ. Here are possible setups (ask your contractor what size he would recommend--I would NOT go with a 3 ton for your size home). Now, there are different air handlers that can go with these units, but the 4TEE3F39 air handler is tall due to the Vortica blower. The 4TWX5024A1000A (2-ton XL15i) with the 4TEE3F31B1000A yields 13.00 EER, 15.25 SEER and 8.60 HSPF. The 4TWX5024A1000A (2-ton XL15i) with the 4TEE3F39A1000A yields 13.00 EER, 16.00 SEER, and 9.00 HSPF. The 4TWX5018A1000A (1.5-ton XL15i) with the 4TEE3F31B1000A (only rated match with the 1.5-ton outdoor unit) yields 13.00 EER, 15.00 HSPF, and 8.50 HSPF. Feel free to print out my responses if it will be easier for you to go over these possible issues with your contractor. Good luck.
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As you probably already know, doing this job is going to be expensive. The most cost effective way to do this is to get an energy efficient mortgage (1st or 2nd)--your energy savings over what you have will typically more than cover the payment for really good equipment. This way you can get the best and save big bucks over the long haul. There are tax credits to do this too but only up to $600. There is some legislation pending before congress that would allow for larger tax credits if you can wait a year or two. For heating, most people feel that radiant heat is the best over forced air. If you feel this is the case by January or February with the radiant heat, I would proceed in that direction. If not... The very best system is a geothermal heat pump zoned system for that size house. (2 units) I would recommend either a Carrier 2-stage system using the new 410-a equipment or a water furnace brand zoned system. This system would heat and cool your house and provide most of your hot water too for about $175.00 per month average cost. It is imperative that the contractor be certified in geothermal installations. Get references. For heating and cooling, this is as good as it gets. Typically, these units last 25 years or more. They are generally constructed of high quality components. They are extremely quiet (there is no outdoor unit). These multiple stage systems may have as many as 4 stages for heating and 2 stages for cooling. Translation-warmer air in the heating mode, more even temperatures in both heating and cooling, incredible humidity control and extremely low operating costs. 96% of the people who have installed these geothermal systems are happy with them. Although extremely efficient (about 60% more efficient than the best gas furnace/super efficient AC) the cost to install is not for the faint of heart. IE: On the order of $20-$35k for that size house for two zoned systems. The reason they are so expensive is they involve excavation--burying loops of pipe or drilling vertically. There are only a few contractors that do this. This is the greenest, most energy efficient and most comfortable system you can buy. It uses 75% renewable energy. Check out geoexchange.com or energy.gov for details. The next best would be a dual zoned dual fuel heat pump system. Such as system would use natural gas furnace during very cold weather and an air to air heat pump for moderate weather. Carrier makes the best such "hybrid heat" systems. Installation would run you in the neighborhood of $18-$22k. The next option would be to just replace what you have with two heat pumps or two gas furnaces with electric ac. Carrier or Trane or Bryant--all are good---Typical cost $12k-$20k. If you need significant ductwork done involving tearing into finished walls, you may add as much as 4k to the above figures. Hope this helps.
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tigerdunes
10 years ago
Has var speed blower which helps in AC mode for dehumidification. Motor is very quiet and cost effective reaching higher SEER.

You should be aware the XV80 furnace dealer quoted for upstairs has same var speed blower.

IMO
CT96
Original Author
10 years ago
I have a quote for $11,200 for Train units Xr15 + XV80 furnace upstairs and XB13c unit downstairs. Is this a reasonable price?
tigerdunes
10 years ago
Post all model numbers including evap coil for upstairs system.

New linesets or old to correct size and to be flushed?

Any air filter cabinets?

What model thermostat?

Just so you know you are placing a nice system upstairs compared to the XL13c.

Post back.

IMO
CT96
Original Author
10 years ago
Tigerdunes,

Thank you for your reply. Please see the requested info below:

Thermostat (2): TCONT803A532DA
XR15: 4TTR5036 (Coil will be 4TXCC or 4TCB)
XL13c or XB13 recommended by contract based on size of floor plan and cost. Stated that XL14 would be $800 more, but didn't think we needed it.
No air-filter cabinet (we have air filters in the 5 air-returns throughout the house right now).
Includes old lines (flushed and sized)

Total cost came in at $11,200 and includes an extra air return for the upstairs bonus room (right now it doesn't have one and we have hear/cold issues based on season). Cost estimates also includes moving the outside unit over to the gaspack unit. Basically we are moving it away from backyard patio.
CT96
Original Author
10 years ago
Tigerdunes,

Thank you for your reply. Please see the requested info below:

Thermostat (2): TCONT803A532DA
XR15: 4TTR5036 (Coil will be 4TXCC or 4TCB)
XL13c or XB13 recommended by contract based on size of floor plan and cost. Stated that XL14 would be $800 more, but didn't think we needed it.
No air-filter cabinet (we have air filters in the 5 air-returns throughout the house right now).
Includes old lines (flushed and sized)

Total cost came in at $11,200 and includes an extra air return for the upstairs bonus room (right now it doesn't have one and we have hear/cold issues based on season). Cost estimates also includes moving the outside unit over to the gaspack unit. Basically we are moving it away from backyard patio.
tigerdunes
10 years ago
Well, I see nothing wrong with the pricing. For downstairs system, I would think an upgrade price to the XL14c gaspak to be no more than $500. As said the XL13c is a step down from the upstairs system quoted. Your choice though.

I would though insist on the Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ stat for the upstairs system over 803. You get true two stage thermostat plus dehumidify on demand feature for AC cooling. Don't cripple a nice system's capability with wrong thermostat.

What size living area for upstairs? What size XV80 furnace was quoted? If you post back, I will look up the AHRI matching performance/eff numbers for you.

IMO
CT96
Original Author
10 years ago
Tigerdunes,

Thank you for your comments. The vision pro will be included. Quote for AC upstairs was for 3 ton AC system with 80K BTU furnace). The cost for the XL14 downstairs came in at $500 more (we are getting the XL14 based on your recommendation.

Living upstairs is 1800 sqft
Living downstairs is 1400 sqft
tigerdunes
10 years ago
For best operation you will need the HW Vision Pro IAQ thermostat both for staging two stage heat based on demand rather than a timer that will put you on high stage most of the time whether needed or not. This feature alone will pay for itself. You need this stat for both the split system upstairs and XL14c downstairs. You will not regret getting the XL14c.

Plus the thermostats will need to be correctly wired for dehumidify on demand feature.

What size is downstairs system? Can't recall.

IMO
Good Luck!
CT96
Original Author
10 years ago
Thank you for your recommendations! Downstairs is about 1,400 sqft.
tigerdunes
10 years ago
What size system XL14c for downstairs? 2 ton or 2 1/2 Ton?

AC Replacement/Upgrade

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