I played for about 10 years but it has been about that long since I have played. Maybe I can help?

Thanks, groomingal! I love this forum :). There's someone who knows pretty much anything on here...

So I guess one way in to my question is: how do *you* do vibrato? It seems like it's a bone of contention among flautists? Is there a way that most professionals do and then a way that minor league people do? How did Rampal do it, etc.? DD's teacher has taught her to do it from the solar plexus, the diaphragm, and says that it's absolutely THE RIGHT way to do it, but we just found some videos on youtube of a flautist who has all kinds of awards, impeccable teaching provenance, etc. -- and she says that the belly is WRONG, that it makes a sound like a bad opera singer (around 2.10 and on--see below), and that you should do it from the throat and top of the mouth.

I know *nothing* about flute, can't tell the difference between vibrato sounds, but I can tell that the way this youtube person recommends to do something else (Nina Perlove) *does* make a difference I can tell -- it's the video on sound production. She recommends turning the flute out more and holding it a bit lower than usual -- the difference in the body of the sound is *amazing*, it's like the old way suddenly seems muted!

DD's afraid to change her embouchure without her teacher's knowledge/approval, and after seeing the chasm on vibrato production, we're thinking that DD's teacher and Ms. Perlove are probably at opposite ends of the pole on most technique issues. Which brings up my larger question: is DD studying *wrong* technique? Is she not being well served by her teacher? Honestly, we found her because a friend was taking from her (all 4 kids taking piano, two taking flute), and liked her. She's very sweet and encouraging, plays beautifully (to my mind) although her piano is nowhere near as good, and I wonder if, whether I were a flautist, I'd be thinking that her flute is as bad as I know her piano to be.

ARGH...I don't want to switch DD out so soon, but from piano I really do know the dangers of wasting time studying with a bad teacher. I want to let DD make the most of her hard work and really have the best instruction I can find.

Anyway, what do you think of this Nina Perlove person? She has great credentials. Should we be looking for a person who teaches more along her approach? Thanks so much if you've read my angsting this far :)

Here is a link that might be useful: the vibrato video -- just one in her oeuvre

flyleft, I played the flute for a few years but don't really know anything about it.

However, as someone who has taught music and who has been a professional musician and who has played with a LOT of flutists, I do think that a teacher who teaches flute AND piano is probably not really a serious teacher of either. I would look for someone who is a professional flutist -- maybe talk to someone in the nearest orchestra (e.g., principal even in a regional orchestra is probably pretty good) and ask for recommendations. Do you have a college with a music department nearby? That would be another avenue to pursue.

Good luck. It's worth the effort to try to find a good teacher.

Thanks, harriet. I know what you mean -- this person did an undergraduate degree in flute but never played in an orchestra--she got married and didn't pursue a career, rather decided to become a basic music teacher so she could raise her family and did piano because more kids wanted to learn piano than flute. Despite her somewhat less-than-full-out career, she has had several flute students who have done well enough, passed some exam to get college credit for work done...it's such a different world 1) now and 2) in flute as opposed to piano.

I'm getting the feeling that maybe we should look for another more serious teacher, but as I look online more I see that there are some serious flautists who say that vibrato comes from the diaphragm and not the throat, some who say different...it's all controversial...so at least DD hasn't been being taught something that *everyone* serious thinks is wrong.

So now I wonder: if vibrato technique isn't a litmus test, as qualified professionals differ on it, how *will* I know a 'good' teacher? S/he'll teach only flute, I guess, is one criterion. Any others I should be on the lookout for? Guess I could possibly contact the Oregon Symphony.

flyleft- Do me a favor and take a deep breath- now try to blow out and use your stomach to replicate a triplet with air. Now do the same but use your throat to mimic it. It is so much easier to use your throat/lips to create vibrato- not to mention it enables you to gain a full breath and use it longer. When you are using your stomach to create the sound you lose air capacity because you will wear yourself out by forcing from the stomach. It is also not a natural position to keep yourself tense enough to contract your stomach to force air when proper sitting position, full breath, and using the throat will get a smoother, faster, and pleasing vibrato. Not saying it is the wrong technique but I don't find it efficient.

DD needs to play to her best ability and this teacher is holding her back. I don't think she is teaching her wrong- it is probably how she learned or she was not a good flautist and she made a bad playing habit work in her favor. She is however not a good teacher if DD needs her permission to change her playing in a way that is beneficial and improving. If you think her piano skills are bad- chances are her flute skills are as well.

If your area has the resources- go to a college and speak with their music director. See if he can recommend a first or second chair student to tutor or if he has another tutor he would recommend. Some colleges have marching/orchestra bands- not all musicians play in both- I would find one that does because there is a big difference in the style and techniques.

Don't base a good flautist as playing only the flute- I have seen some flautists that play no other instruments and don't play the flute well either. I know many people that can play multiple instruments. Several can pick up almost any instrument and play with the best of them- it is all about knowledge/practice/dedication. Ask potential teachers about some techniques and why they use one over the other and also ask them which flautist is inspirational to them and why. Some musicians that are not serious cannot name someone that is noted with that instrument- someone that is serious can tell you three ways from Sunday who they idolize and why. This will also be an indicator to the style and technique they most likely use.

I would pull dd from the lady that is teaching her now- it sounds like she uses piano/flute lessons as an income source only. Just because friends use her and she is sweet and encouraging is not a reason to continue lessons none of that will benefit your daughter in music.

To add to what groomingal said, playing multiple instruments is probably okay if the others are also winds, but flute and piano technique are so totally different that I'd be dubious. I have never met a serious pianist/teacher who also is a serious flutist/teacher (and vice versa).

You might also try contacting this organization ...

Here is a link that might be useful: National Flute Association

I also played for about 10 years, stopped for almost 20 until my husband got me a flute recently. My mouth & stomach get sore and my fingers can't fly like they used to. It was a real bummer. But I've been thinking about putting in some practice time.

I have never heard of using the throat as acceptable- everything comes from the stomach. I'm no expert certainly, I just know that early on we had to really work to not use the throat and "billy goat" through, and that having it originate from the stomach muscles gives more control and a more natural feel. This was considered so essential, pushing air from the stomach, and was such a foundation of playing, that anybody who said differently to me I would to this day consider a hack.

You all are so great! cat tail, your lessons sound like what DD's teacher says -- that there's a right way and a wrong way...and I completely hear you about being bummed about how you *used* to be able to play - that precise feeling is what's keeping me from really sitting down and practicing again. I just can't do what I used to be able to do...sounds like the "old man" in "Man smart, woman smarter" LOL

So it looks like I'm going to be shopping for a new teacher. DD's teacher does have a lot to recommend her, seriously--she is great at explanation, infinitely patient, has amazing pitch (more nuanced than mine, and I was told mine was extremely good (relative perfect, but that's not the same as being able to hear intra-tone sharp/flatness), even though I was a pianist LOL)--I've vetoed a fair number of other teachers because of their demeanor.

This dear woman is SO patient and yet so good at explanation and guidance -- we do owe it to her that DD has come so far so fast and developed the enthusiasm she has. I don't want to kill the love of music by getting her with an 'old school' demanding career-focused teacher...she almost definitely won't go into this professionally (she's not a real in-the-blood musician like I am--memorized all of Beethoven's 5th to sing straight through at age 5--didn't think that was odd until I had a kid LOL), but I want her to have a long-lasting love of music forever. We'll take it step by step and make sure that any new teacher focuses on love and enjoyment in addition to technique.

And now I've started digging around the web, thanks to harriet's link...I found something interesting on a *sax* discussion group, of all places--thought I'd share it:

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"The conventional pedagogical wisdom about flute vibrato seems to be that you initially teach it as a pulsation of the abdominal muscles, which, with time and practice, somehow magically moves up into the throat.

What is always unclear in this explanation is what, exactly, is moving in the throat to cause vibrato? The true vocal folds? The false vocal folds? The muscles of the neck? Part of the tongue? I find both the abdominal and the throat explanation to be dubious at best.

I tend to believe the theory that the pulsation comes from the intercostal muscles, the ones between your ribs. This theory seems to be strangely unpopular with many flutists, though it is not new and is pretty well documented (see Putnik's 1970 The Art of Flute Playing, for one source)."
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So now here's a *third* option...guess that book is my next stop, along with more web searches...

btw, here's another quote from further down on the same discussion:
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"Most flute players have been a member of the bleating goat club at some time in the past (self included) and having since reformed my ways, I am pulsing down below for vibrato (either diaphragm or chest). You can actually see and feel this. As the vibrato speed increases, sympathetic throat motion seems to increase too but there is always a push from down below.

Overall I would say the *source* of flute vibrato should be the diaphragm or chest, but that the throat always moves too and contributes to the sound. What works for me is to keep the throat relaxed - let the throat go with the flow but don't push from there."
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"I rather doubt that the diaphragm is active in flute or voice vibrato, in spite of popular terminology, because the diaphragm is not active for exhalation. The abdominal muscles and intercostal muscles provide the support for exhalation."
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Again, these are just different musicians talking to each other...but less 'officially', more conversationally, so maybe it's less guarded?

At least my original small question is being answered -- that there *is* honest disagreement among professionals on how to do this, and this teacher isn't necessarily leading DD down a completely wrong path. Still have to keep searching, though...

Here is a link that might be useful: more food for thought

I think they're all saying the same thing, though- that the source is your diaphragm/rib area (whatever they called those muscles) at the sides. I think they're getting technical about the diaphragm versus abdomen versus ribs, and then they mention that the throat gets involved a bit though you always need to leave it open, etc. I just don't think there's a debate about the rib/diaphragm versus the throat. Blow out and squeeze at your diaphragm area, your ribs get involved a bit, who knows exactly what's going on, but that's the area where it all should come from.

Oh good, cat tail (love your name, btw :)). If you listen to the youtube video it sure sounds like it's a debate, though...but at least I know that DD isn't being taught complete clap-trap.

DD had what seemed to me a great lesson today, wouldn't you know...but thanks to you all for your thoughts on how to judge/go about finding a good teacher. I'll be looking.

Another option is to find someone trustworthy to evaluate her playing on a one-time basis and let you know if he or she thinks your daughter needs a new teacher or is doing okay as is.

flyleft, my DD has been playing the flute for several years and will be leaving to study music education in college very soon. She takes private lessons from one of the best teachers in our state and even teaches younger flute students herself. I told her about this thread and she would be happy to chat with you if you want to email her. Her address is momos412@yahoo.com.

Scarlet

Harriet, that's a great idea--like getting a second opinion. Just have to figure out who that person would be.

Scarlet, thanks! I'll write her today. Your house must be so delightfully full of music :) -- I have to say, I have loved hearing DD's flute from the very first day. There's something so--eternal about the sound, I guess is the word, whether it's joyful or mournful or playful or inquisitive or anything else -- it sounds like a sound that is so deeply part of humanity and nature...weird, hm? I never had that feeling about piano, even though I was pretty serious about it for over a decade. I'll look forward to hearing/reading what your daughter has to say.