I'm coming in late to this thread but after reading it through, the phrase that I could most identify with was:

he's having a ball enjoying the freedoms of bachelorhood with the advantages of marriage.

This was the exact problem I had with my husband shortly after we got married, and it was the thing that broke up his first marriage. He wanted to have a wife, home cooked meals, family life, etc, when he wanted to and then go out and do whatever he wanted to (on his own) whenever he wanted to, night after night.

My response was, if you wanted to live the single life, why get married? This all began happening about a year after we got married and that's about the time I realized he'd done the same thing in the first marriage. His first wife put up with it for a while, then when she'd had enough, she moved on. His attitude was sort of, take me as I am, this is how it is. I don't think he actually realized there was a possibility she wouldn't.

I, however, was not at all prepared to put up with that. It took a lot of work and he really wanted our marriage to work so we were able to come to an understanding about what it meant to be a husband and step father. I told him that I would never force him to be at home, or to participate as a member of the family, but that if he chose the single lifestyle then he might as well be single and that would be HIS choice.

Here's what I'm wondering -- all the things you do and have done, are they things you did because you wanted to? Because you felt they were your duty? Because you felt they were expected? Has he ever asked you to do any of these things -- especially the extra support and effort you put forth when he was getting his MBA? Has he ever said he appreciates the things you do? Has he ever thanked you for your efforts?

Part of the reason I didn't read this thread before was that I figured it was about whether husbands bring flowers, compliment their wives, etc. And my husband (mostly) doesn't do that kind of stuff. HOWEVER, he does treat me with respect, he does appreciate what I do, and he does try to undertand my point of view. And vice versa.

I will say that I definitely agree with the advice above to get your own life and career in order, and at the same time, try to work things out with him. See a marriage counselor if he will go with you, get a dialog going to find out what he expects, values, appreciates in your relationship because it sounds to me like you and he are not on the same page on these basic issues. I hope things can and do work out between the two of you. But if they don't, do what you have to do to be happy and make your life better. It's worth it.

Hi all, Thanks for all your suggestions and advice, I am overwhelmed and grateful for your support, wisdom, insight, and life experience. Today, instead of working, I had a lovely walk, a sandwich at a local coffee shop, and stopped to smell the many proverbial roses. I've just been really sad today, basically realizing that I've been having this marriage all by myself, doing the job of a husband and a wife. I've made some very poor choices,

Thanks Mindstorm for bringing up the matter of a job. My husband also said "get a job," though I think he thinks if I had less time, he'd be less scrutinized. You know, keep the wife too insanely busy to think. When he said it I was like "why? So I can have the burden of taking care of everything at home and have office pressures to also contend with?" But yes, it's looking like a necessary step.

I really don't know how to do it since summer is coming and the kids are out of school. I have signed them up for some little day camp things, but not enough hours for a working mother. And obviously, I don't have any back up from my husband as he's far away most of the time. So sick kids, medical emergencies, having to figure out how to get coverage with child care if I have to work -- these are all the problems I never expected. I don't have any nearby family either.

And I love writing, but it's a poverty level job. I know no one's really using the big 'D' word, but if that happens, I'll need to get a real job which means back to writing ad copy or working in corporate communications, my previous careers.

Geogirl, I hear what you're saying that he might not expect good meals, a clean house, a well-set dinner table, fresh flowers here and there, clean and nicely dressed kids, etc., but I think one of my attractions for him were probably those things. He always craved that kind of family life, his own homelife growing up was fairly chaotic and unloving. It was important to him to have it in his marriage and for his children. No, squalor is not his style at all. Oh, and the people we have over are never just my friends. It's always people we both know and like.

But GG you got me thinking the value we might no longer share is what we want in a marriage and what we are willing to give to the marriage. Everyone who says there's more going on here than the need for a 'date' is right.

No matter what happens, whether he appreciates all the supportive and loving things I've done or not, I will always be very proud of the work I've done raising my kids. The fact that they have had me anchoring them and a warm and secure home is one of the reasons they're so totally sane. I will also always be proud of the work I've done in my community, which has helped the library, stopped development, and mediated homeowner disputes. And I will always know in my heart that what happens at home is, for me, always going to be more important then what happens at work, no matter how big the paycheck or the office.

I think that whole life is over for me. Sorry if that sounds fatalistic, but that's how it feels.

I called to ask what tomorrow's plan is and he said it's lunch and it's at 11:30. After that, what happens is anyone's guess. It might not make sense but I'm so mad at him that it's making me scared.

I think that everyone's comments and advice have been helpful to Judith. We are a group of women with a lot of personal knowledge and experience. We may only be cyber friends but we care about each other and always try and help. Let's hope that this can be worked out between Judith and DH. The most important thing is that Judith can come to us and we won't ever judge her actions. We are 100% on her side.
We have strength as a group of mature woman and will give that strength to Judith if the time comes.
Donna

Judith,
Your message posted while I was writing mine. I didn't mean to be talking about you when you are right here.
Judith, We have all made some poor choices in our lives. I am constantly regretting my decision not to have children. I regret sometimes getting divorced. I always regret the career that I chose.
You have a lot to be proud of in your life. If all you ever did in your life was to be a good mom, then you had a successful life.
Good Luck on Wednesday, we'll be pulling for you.
Donna

Judith,

I just read through all of the and all I can say is my heart goes out to you. So many of us have been in your situation and boy it's not easy. Whatever happens remember you will make it through and go on to be happy again. It sounds like you have done everything that a wife and mother could possibly do to have a good marriage and a happy home but that said people change and grow and sometimes not in the same direction.

It sounds like you have thought of the worst outcome. Nobody likes to think of the "D" word but there really is a light at the end of that tunnel. Not an easy road but so many have traveled it and I don't know anyone who hasn't come through and not made a happier life for themselves.

Someone said you have to ask yourself if your life is better with him or better without him, Ann Landers I think?, All any of us can do is out best. So first make yourself happy and your children will be happy if you are.

Take care of yourself and come here for support or just to vent. So much wisdom here it always amazes me. You will be in my thought tomorrow.

(((Hugs)))

Claudia

Judith, I really do feel for you and I *do* hope it goes well for you tomorrow.

Also, my suggestion is to restart your career, not "get a job". Your career should be something that you are excited about doing - it doesn't matter if it is a "poverty level job". You want to do what you are skilled at, what you are good at, what you think will impact and contribute to society, and in a way that will get you recognition for that contribution. Don't let financial flow-down drive you just now.

In your second or third posts you alluded to some writing opportunities that you are excited about. IMO, you should jump in with both feet - both sound like amazing "career-building" opportunities if you (a) enjoy the work and (b) are willing to work hard to realize the opportunities that are being handed to you. It shouldn't (generally) feel like a chore and you shouldn't view it as "a job" but rather as exactly how you described it to us, up above - something that you are genuinely excited about without regard to that invitation's pecuniary ramifications.

In addition to your writing contributions, it sounds like you have the drive and the gumption to be a substantial problem-solver for your community. That alone is quite an asset that you can tap into. Is there some policy or process that you have instituted in your community that can be useful to other communities? some new facility you've enabled that it would behoove others to know about or basically some lesson learned that should be documented for posterity? If so, why not publicize it - either in a community newsletter or submit it to a larger publication for wider circulation? In the course of working with the local community, you may have made contact with some people of influence. Get advocacy from them - tell them that this XYZ community project that they helped you with etc. is something that should be publicized and it would be good to be pro-active about circulating information on how you guys made it happen for other communities? That it would great visibility for the town etc and would they collaborate with you in publicizing this ...? Bottom line, capitalize on what you've done to make contacts and circulate your name as a do-er. The circulation isn't the end goal - talking to people will let you tell them what you are good at and what you want to do and it can help open doors for you to do the sort of writing you want. Hopefully.

In the meantime, you've already got two projects. Yay!

Basically, I'm saying - build your career with something that you are excited about, don't just "get a job".

Also, I just wanted to say to some of the other very sensible posters - I also firmly believe that you can't take sides based on one person's narrative of events. However, words like "non-career enhancing marriage" and "manage the spin with the kids" are simply not words that - 9 times out of 10 - require another perspective. There certainly are cases where such a choice of words are sympathetic but most reasonable disagreements don't rise to that level. I mean to say, I don't imagine Judith is having a very public extra-marital lesbian affair (a la a certain NE guv'nor), nor is she flouncing around country clubs in catwoman outfits or something like it - although she could be, I suppose. Both would, I'll concede, genuinely embarrass spousal career ambitions and prudence would certainly have been justified on my part and those of us going "whoa!". As it stands however, I'll reiterate my position that ... something's rotten in the state of Denmark.

Good luck today, may it be a positive spin on things.

Good morning, Judith. Know there are a lot of folks thinking about you this morning and beaming you support.

You have had me thinking a lot about marraige. Bottom line perhaps isn't the romantic gestures or dates, but the knowing, the absolutely sure *knowing*, that you are in it together. On the same side. Maybe why some posters have said here that they've accommodated to their partners doing this or not doing that. People aren't perfect and marraiges sure aren't either. As long as there is a core of mutual respect and commitment and caring, there's room for lots of warts.

I'll tell you a story. Once DH called stranded on a fishing trip when his brother acccidentally left with his car keys. I rescued him. Later he said, "You know, you didn't even hesitate a split second on the phone, and said you'd come. That felt really good. To know you'd help me without question." (No need to explore what horrid routine behaviors I exhibit to have him think I would leave him in the woods. Hopefully he expected just a bit o complaining or blame, not actual outright abandonment.) Anyway, it was one of those moments that made clear how important it is to *know* that when the chips are down, your partner will be there for you. Do what you need them to do. Be on your side. No questions.

Both of us since have made it a point to be more overt about that bottom line with each other.

Regardless of your talk today, your marraige is at a crisis point. The experts say the thing about a crisis is that it cannot continue and must evolve into something else. That makes it an opportunity for growth and change, and even outcomes that were unfathomable before the crisis.

You will get through this. People can change and grow. And forgive. And start over. Do hold your ground that needing to feel like a valued partner, rather than an impediment, is essential. And healthy and sane.

I do hope your talking today goes well.

Thinking about you - good luck today - hope it is a positive turning point for you!!

I'm thinking about you and sending positive thoughts your way. Best of luck today. I hope all goes as you have hoped it would.

It's amazing...we wouldn't recognize each other in the street but here are at least probably a dozen women across the country whose thoughts will be with you today, judith. I'm sending energies for strength and optimism.

I'm figuring that Judithn is enjoying a wonderful desert right now. I'm hoping at least! Just wanted to say I've been sending good thughts your way this morning. Wishing you the best!

I woke up thinking about you Judith. Wishing you the best.

Judith,
I am sending my positive thoughts. Whatever happens, we are here for you.
Donna

More positive thoughts from me too.
May

I can't stand waiting....what happened Judith? ....what did DH say?
Donna

Judith - just count me as one more person who has been thinking of you and hoping that things go well with your husband today.

Just checking in to see how everything went today. I keep hoping it was a pleasant surprise.....

...and one more who has been thinking about you today and hoping for the best.

And yet another...

...wishing you the best.

judith...

we're here, whatever it is...

Jeez, Judith, are you OK?

It's been a strange day and though I have not nearly begun to digest what occurred with my husband, I felt it was important to write something to update you all. Many thanks for your kind thoughts and good wishes, I was psychically bolstered!

I think the purpose of our lunch was in his mind, to prove he actually could arrange something for the two of us. He also arranged an outing for our entire family this upcoming Sunday afternoon for a local cultural event. He did accept that he had messed up by not doing anything along these lines previously. His actual words were 'That was my mistake. I was stupid." It's not an actual apology, but it's progress, right? I'm holding the applause until I know it's a recurring performance or just a one time role.

I made it crystal clear that as far as I'm concerned, our marriage, in its current form, is over. I suggested he do some thinking and figure out what he wants in his life at this point, what he's willing to give to a relationship and a family, and what he's not willing to give. He said he would have to get back to me on that because he didn't know the answers. That's not so good, right?

At moments I was hopping mad and couldn't bear to look him in the eye. We have very different interpretations of certain events and I'm not sure either of us is at a point to really hear what the other is saying. Of course, understanding another person's point of view doesn't always guarantee agreement, does it. Still, it was quite civilized. One of the advantages of being in a fancy restaurant.

After lunch, I went to see the therapist. My take-home message was that we have a lot of work to do. I felt calmer after that, but when I got home my kids were back from school. My husband had taken the day off from work to be here and I thought he'd interact with the kids. Instead, he spent the entire time he was home (with one brief dinner break) in front of the computer, taking calls from the office.

I pointed out that a day off to spend time with his family did not mean isolating himself in front of the computer for the entire evening, he said he couldn't help it, that it wasn't his fault the computers at work malfunctioned when they did. No part of what I wanted to say in response to that was G-rated.

Mindstorm, Your post about work really got me thinking. I was feeling down about having to go back to my former career(s). I now realize I may be overlooking some of my resources, skills and opportunities. I don't know how to start reframing the situation yet, but I intend to think about it.

Thanks everyone again, keep sending that white light my way! I need it!

Good to hear that you are holding it together.
You have had a emotionally draining few days. Try and get some sleep and take care of yourself.

Claudia

Judith ~ I agree about getting some rest ;o) It sounds like you've been through the proverbial wringer. I am astounded that he could even think he's making any sense when he's giving you very different messages. Talk about passive-aggressive bs.

"I think the purpose of our lunch was in his mind, to prove he actually could arrange something for the two of us. He also arranged an outing for our entire family this upcoming Sunday afternoon for a local cultural event."

And then this...

"I suggested he do some thinking and figure out what he wants in his life at this point, what he's willing to give to a relationship and a family, and what he's not willing to give. He said he would have to get back to me on that because he didn't know the answers."

What?? At this point my gloves would be off. You're a better woman than I, Gunga Din.

Judith,
Like I said before, I learned in my marriage that you can't try and change another person but you can change yourself. It's time for you to start being number one. I think you know that already. Instead of waiting for his reply about what kind of relationship he wants, you need to decide what you need and want from him and can he be that person. Start doing things for yourself. Go back to your writing. Get physically active.
I read a great book years ago called "Why Men Love B*tches" author, Sherry Argov. The title is very deceiving. It doesn't tell you to be a "b*tch" but how to hold your own in a relationship. It really is worth reading.
Judith, It's time for you to grow. Change is scary but also exhilerating!
Donna

Men and women are wired so differently when it comes to emotions and expectations in a marriage.

DS and his new wife broke up after 2 years of marriage; she was trying to change him and had firm expectations of what roles he should have. She was constantly disappointed in him and that wore him down since he could never please her. They are rekindling now; my son hasn't changed but she has realized she can accept how he is now instead of fighting it all the time.
My son always met with disapproval from her , no matter how hard he tried;
that kills love .

My husband always placed his job first, unless there was illness or emergencies; it was unavoidable due to the demands of the career.

If you are boiling inside and resent him constantly, (which you imply) something definitely is amiss and you have to look inside you to figure out if you still have love for him so you can accept certain sides of him that you won't be able to change ever or if it's too unbearable overall, all hope is lost.

One thing I might suggest as a temporary solution, is to NOT deal with all this for a few weeks; let dust settle and examine yourself during that time.
I've taken breaks of this kind when I was at a standstill in my thinking and couldn't advance further; it's non productive as far as shelving the issue for a predetermined lenght of time, such as 7 days for example, but it was very productive as far as finding some kind of resolution within myself because I wasn't obsessing with my problem 24 hours a day.
I kept myself distracted with other activities I'd throw myself in, and would push away all negative thoughts, surprisingly good solutions would come to me when I least expected them.
After my "break" , I was better equipped to find resolution and make decisions, clarity comes when you give it some time.

I do wish you all the best in your situation.

I suggested he do some thinking and figure out what he wants in his life at this point, what he's willing to give to a relationship and a family, and what he's not willing to give. He said he would have to get back to me on that because he didn't know the answers. That's not so good, right?

Trying to stay objective and give him the benefit of the doubt, this might be interepreted in a somewhat positive way. It might just mean he hasn't given it much thought. He's been ok with the status quo (that seems to be obvious since it's all in his advantage) so on his end there was no need to think through what he expected or what you might be expecting from him (aside from the date planning aspect).

Now, I realize that in itself is not positive from your point of view, but it is positive in that he probably hasn't been in the frame of mind of ending things.

Especially after you made it crystal clear that as far as I'm concerned, our marriage, in its current form, is over it's probably a wise thing for him to at least think through his response rather than jump in -- especially if he wasn't expecting it.

IF he really wants to understand your point of view, IF he really wants to keep the marriage together, IF he is willing to change, it's still going to be a long slow process, things aren't going to change overnight. And remember that you'll both have to work hard to repair the damage and move forward.

I still stand by my advice that you both should see a marriage counselor. It shouldn't take more than maybe a half a dozen sessions at most to determine if both you and he really want the marriage to continue and are willing to work to fix things, or if it really is over and it's time to move on. And the foremost thing for the forseeable future is to make that determination and then go from there.

Please keep a positive outlook. No matter which way things go, your goal is to make yourself feel better and happier, and that WILL happen. It won't be easy either way but when you look back it will be worth it.

I agree with lowspark that his "I'll get back to you on that" response isn't necessarily all bad. A nodding "Of course that's what I want, I'll change, I'll plan dates, I promise I will" would've been the same old same old rote response and wouldn't indicate any desire to give some thought about the situation at all.

I had a friend in a very similar situation. I thought for sure they were going to get a divorce. The romance had been gone for so long from their marriage.
When I saw her several months later I asked her how it was going. She said that her husband had changed 100%. He was romantic and attentive. I asked, "how did you change him". She told me that she went to an attorney. She had been married 20yrs and the attorney told her that she was entitled to half of all their assets. She went home and showed her husband the paperwork. When he realised what he was losing both personally and financially he changed fast. Now they have a great relationship. She scared him silly.
I'm not suggesting you try this, but it worked for my friend.
Donna

I am glad to hear that his intentions were to give you some of the things that you want, rather than to walk away. Good. I also think it's great that you have both started thinking about nuturing your marriage rather than taking it for granted. Having said that, I think he deserves some positive feed back for the steps he did take. He DID arrange a lunch date. During the date, instead of being fawned over for what a good job he did, you both "discussed" interpretations of past events in your marriage. Others may disagree, but some men are very stratight forward. If an action leads to a positive experience, they repeat the action. If it leads to a negative expereince, they will never go that road again. My point is that he did something nice for you, and he got NO positive feed back. If you want him to do this again and not associate your "dates" with "talks about our relationship", you really should let him know that you appreciate his gesture. That the gesture IS what you are looking for, although, at some point in the future you want to actually both ENJOY the dates. Relationship talks are just about the same as physical torture to many men.

Also, I think he does get points for TRYING to take the day off. It is not his fault that the computer crashed at work. That is his job, to take care of that. Again, he needs some positive feed back. Like, "I appreciate that you tried to take the day off. I understand that an emergency occured that you were required to handle. I look forward to another time soon when you will be able to take the day off and spend it with us. Your gensture, although not the implementation, is appreciated."

Again, he did try. I do understand your frustration. I'm also not trying to say that you shouldn't discuss all the things you really do need to discuss to get your marriage back to where you both want it to be. However, I do think if you don't at least acknowledge his attempts, you won't see them again. I, too, feel ridiculous when I jump up and down and squeel with delight like I would for a three year old, when my husband finally attends to whatever is broken in the house. "Oh THANK YOU, honey for fixing that broken pipe. I REALLY appreciate it." When, what I'm actually thinking is "Well, it only took you 3 months to finally get around to fixing this. And why am I the one that has to mention it to you. Why the heck aren't YOU noticing that the pipe is leaking and just take care of it for goodness sakes!" But, I have found more stuff gets done when I gush with enthusiasum. My husband is a good guy, really. Some things aren't as important to him as they are to me. And visa-versa.

I'm glad that you both have begun the journey to a better marriage. Good luck!

Judith - I REALLY encourage you both to see a good counsellor together. I'm feeling that where you and your husband are going right now is well beyond online advice and speculation. This could be the beginning of some new insights and honesty that you haven't shared for awhile (maybe ever?), but only the two of you will be able to discover those things.

I know a couple (grown children, late 50's) who like to say they've been married 5 times...to the same person. Meaning, of course, that different phases of life bring different dynamics of marriage as two people grow. I hope that this season - hard as it is - will open the door for a "new marriage" between the two of you.

I highly recommend a book called "Passionate Marriage" by Dr. David Schnarch. I am NOT a fan of most so-called self-help touchy-feely books, but this one is excellent.
Kristi.

geogirl1
I have to respectfully disagree with your advice. I think you are asking Judith to do what most women have done for decades and that is making excuses for their man. Go back and re read Judiths original post. This behavior has been going on for a long time. Why does Judith have to think about how to not upset him? He needs to be the one to step up to the plate this time. I don't think Judith needs to put forth the effort, he does. She has catered to him for too long.
I think Judith should do things for herself that make her happy. She told him what she wants from the marriage and now it's up to him to provide it. Why are the women always the ones that are made to feel responsible for the relationship? He should be worried about Judith walking away and not the other way around. He needs to know that his marriage is in trouble and HE has to do something not Judith!
Donna

Such good insights by all!! I too think it's positive that he said he had to think about it - that's good. There just seems to be a whole lot of buried baggage here and it sounds as if you two do not understand each others needs and wants very well. In my opinion the door has opened and you might now really dig into that. I do think it would be helpful to get some professional assistance with that as others have mentioned.

DH and I have gone through quite a few times like you describe where we are like two "ships passing in the night" as they say. Each too much living in our own little world way too oblivious to the other's feelings. Fortunately for us we are both able to recognize this and we're able to have heart to heart talks and truly listen to each other's views. That's not easy to do if you have built up hurt and resentment - it's too hard to be objective. That's where I think a professional can help.

The ideas mentioned above that DH's might respond favorably to positive feedback (doesn't everyone?) resonate with me - that's certainly what I see with mine. And I also recognized that I am way more free with my demands and complaints than I am with my appreciation and praise - and I've improved in that respect. However if you've been feeling hurt for a long time it's pretty hard to think positive.

I really think there is a lot of hope that you will work things out. I hope you can get him to go with you to see a counselor.

Organic Donna -

I think we have to agree to disagree (ugh, I really dislike that saying!) I never said that Judith needs to worry about upsetting him, or make excuses for his behavior. In fact, I said THEY need to work this out; both of them need to nurture the relationship. This means that she needs to acknowledge that he did what she asked. He did EXACTLY what she requested. She wanted a date. He gave her a date. A little late? Yes. Ok, she can acknowledge that too. Under no circumstances do I think Judith should back down from her needs. Under no circumstances should she request less of him. However, she needs to acknowledge his efforts to do what she asked. Positive reinforcement is a good thing. It validates her requests, and it validates his actions.

Under your plan, she has laid down the gauntlet and now she should stand there and wait for him to step up and dance. Life never works that way, nor should it. Working with him, is not the same thing as giving him all the power. Validating a positive action on his part does not weaken her position. They are two equals in this marriage.

I do agree with you that Judith needs to make herself happy. She needs to do whatever it is that meets her needs. She needs to do that for herself.

Judith, you have drawn a line in the sand, which is a good thing to do and it certainly got your husband's attention. A very good thing. And as other posters have already said, I hope you can see an established marital couselor with your husband. We on-line friends can't begin to guess at what your husband might be thinking or what his world view is, capacity for change, etc. Before I had my family, I was a counselor and I firmly believe that individual therapy in the face of marital issues must be augmented with couples counseling in order to come up with solutions that resolve problems rather than intensify them or serve the needs of one rather than both spouses. In fact, I would drop individual to do couples counseling if this was the only way to pay for marital counseling. This would be the change in the marriage that I would demand first: that together you both will work for improving the marriage by going to counseling weekly. You seem to be on the right path. Stay flexible and forgiving. I hope you and your husband can define your "new marriage" that affirms all of the good things that brought you two together. God love you.

Donna, I must respond to your post about your friend whose husband, when faced with potential personal and financial loss in the form of an asset and property division estimate, responded quickly, and 'changed fast'.

The man is not being 'romantic', he is shrewdly protecting his interests. He is minimizing his potential for loss. He is investing time and attention on his wife and the resulting payout will be that he gets to keep his assets, and I'm talking financial assets and not the priceless assets of a happy home, spouse and children.

What a mind expanding discussion, you all make very good points. So many good points! It reinforces for me that women are wonderful and makes me wonder what the country would be like if it was run by Forum members. Seriously, there is so much of substance in all your postings that I know I have to print out this whole discussion and re-read (with a big neon highlighter!) this weekend to let things sink in.

Partly because of what's been said, I will seek someone to help us through this crisis. I will ask the therapist if she can recommend someone. My husband is fine with this. I knew there was a reason I picked the more expensive health insurance at enrollment time!

I am also resolving to follow your excellent example, mitchdesj. I am going to take a chill pill, let things settle, and see what happens in the next couple weeks. I need to pace myself, practice compassion for myself and my kids and my husband. Unfortunately, there's no pill for instant clarity. But, we've taken a while to get this way and it's going to take time to examine and understand how we've gotten into this mess.

And yes, I have to change. In an effort to be kind to myself, I went to the gym, something I usually don't make time for. Then I decided to do something about my hair. While getting stuff put on to make it shiny and fix the color, I ran into a friend having her hair done too. We had a nice conversation and made plans to go out one evening. Another thing I never do, go out socially with other women just because. Clearly I have let my family run my life! Maybe I won't need my husband so much if I have some fun. For a distraction, I do have those writing projects. Do you know I don't actually have a place in my house set up for my work? I've been thinking of doing something about that.

It's Thursday, so my husband does come home from his New York life tonight. He did e-mail with an answer about what his life's goals are, and family and marriage are at the top. He said too that he could see that being away from me and the kids was really kicking things out of balance. We're far from okay, but I do sense a willingness on his part to reassess things and make adjustments to his work life. I think counseling will really help us sort it through.

Judith:

About compassion, how interesting that you posted that comment. I was thinking on the way home from my high school pick up about starting a thread about compassion.... This is a quality that when practiced often becomes a virtue, that I too am sensing that I need to grow in. My mind is all too quick to make judgements, sometimes unkind, sometimes selfish or limiting to those around me. So I am thinking that I need to become more consistantly compassionate, especially those I live with. Compassion literally means "to suffer with" and I am so focused on myself that I easily dismiss those around me as I try to fulfill my own needs. I am struggling to strike the right balance between endless demands on my time and energy with the simple things I must do for myself (because no one else will!). Some days I don't even brush my teeth! Anyway, I don't want to hijack your thread, thanks for your post. Such a thought provoking discussion. And compassion, can one have too much of that?

Judith,
We all keep talking about what we think you should do, it's nice to hear what's actually happening from you.
You sound like you are at a turning point in your marriage. I think it's wonderful that you went to the gym and the hair salon. You are doing things for yourself and that's great. I am so glad that you made plans with a friend to go to dinner. I think you will be much happier once you establish your own interests outside of your family. Your husband and children will learn to see you not just as a wife and mother but as a person too.
To the other posters,
I know sometimes we disagree about what Judith should be doing in her marriage. I just want you to know that I respect all of your opinions and know that it's never personal between any of us. If we agreed on everything then there wouldn't be much to discuss. That's what keeps this forum interesting.
Donna

"He did e-mail with an answer about what his life's goals are, and family and marriage are at the top. He said too that he could see that being away from me and the kids was really kicking things out of balance."

Now that's romantic.
Well, OK, perhaps romantic isn't the right word, but that's what you really needed to hear, and it's what he really needed to realize and admit.

When faced with a major "life re-engineering" project, my DH and I would always start from our "perfect world" scenarios and work back toward the possible. Acknowleging the importance of home and family is vital -- and with that in mind, I'm curious how he'd describe his "dream life" with home and family and exciting career in the proper balance. It would be something for him to think about, and something for you both to discuss when you're feeling serene and compassionate (not vulnerable or angry). (By the way, your version of your dream life gets equal weight in the discussion!)

YAY!! Judith - your last message sounds very encouraging - good for you!

I just want to say I wish you both the very best. It sounds like you are on a good road to improve your marriage. You did some self pampering/hair, met with a friend, made plans! Good for you! Your DH did make the lunch date, took a long time but he did do it. He has done some soul searching and he emailed his top priorities, family/marriage. He is fine with both of you seeking help thru this crisis. Good for him. Again, I really do wish you the best.

It's way cool that you are keeping us informed and are so candid, thanks for that judith. I'm glad things are moving for you in a positive direction.

I think this discussion has helped all of us evaluate and reflect on our relationships, we don't always take time to do it, in these busy times we all live in.
I enjoyed all the sharing above, a real learning experience.

Oh wow! Now that *does* sound like it was a good day! That's fantastic Judith. Now go forth and empower thyself!
But just one thing - if he is enjoying his job, I do hope you can work out a situation that will be mutually satisfying whereby he can *still* enjoy his job. Upon re-reading your other posts, I realized that your DH has a consultant's job or a consultant-like job. I'm so sorry, my dear, but work-fixation, being on-call and frequently being away *is* the life of a consultant. You still do NOT need to be running interference for him with his kids or stalled out/in a holding pattern until "the time is right" (euphemism for: I'll do it later which is a euphemism for: never). You've already articulated well that your personal development needs to factor in as well - obviously since your own personal goals are not being realized and that is making you chafe. But I do so hope you can manage something where he doesn't have to give up what he likes about his new job. Say, a question for you: Does his job lie in New York and does he only return to Boston for the family or does his job extend here too? If it is the former, would you consider moving to New York? It may be easier all told - for both of you. Your children are not so old that it would be difficult to move not to mention, there is something quite culturally and intellectually enriching and exciting to move to a different city, state, country ...

I also liked what geogirl wrote - not just in evaluation of your scenario, Judith, but it was eye-opening for me too. Perhaps it will seem less contentious if one realizes that it is not just good advice for a marriage, but good for any relationship at all. Work relationships, friendships, as well as marriage often respond similarly to the same actuation ... no surprise there since the same people are involved, only the pairings are different.

Matter of fact, geogirl's advice made a few things click for me regarding a great friendship I had once had that soured - and soured spectacularly and rapidly. Interestingly, there are shades of the same issues that Judith summarized about the path of her life with her husband that are common to me with this friend of mine. (Aside: this was a perfectly platonic friendship, no hanky-panky to cloud issues or muddy waters). We were probably both to blame that our friendship became quite cancerous (well, almost certainly, although I like to think that I was a really good friend to him and he - well, not so much) but the bottom line is that it was wrong for me to simply assume that because I'd tolerated my friend's moody, temperamental, cross-patch phase when he was going through a tough time, that at a much later point in time, when he was back on even-keel and when life-things became burdensome for me that it was alright for me not to bother to hold my own temper and irritability in check with him. And I can be quite temperamental and very quick to temper.

So it isn't exactly what geogirl was talking about but metaphorically and euphemistically - I did see a parallel and it was quite clarifying for me.

In the meanwhile, good for you, Judith. Good for you for taking some time for yourself. You need to put some vim and vigor back in your life! Glad you went to the gym. I'm heading out for a run myself. Say, I'm right in the Boston area myself. Maybe I'll be running past your place! :-)

"He did e-mail with an answer about what his life's goals are, and family and marriage are at the top. He said too that he could see that being away from me and the kids was really kicking things out of balance."

Thank goodness! I must admit at first I thought he was being a total cad, but that's just my cynical side surfacing. I am so glad to hear that he's seen the light. It sounds as if you are both willing to do whatever it takes to repair and rejuvenate your marriage. Kudos to your DH for admitting that he has contributed to the decline of your relationship, and for being willing to become an active participant, go for counseling, and become a better man, husband, and father. Good for both of you. I'm also glad to hear that you have taken time to focus on *you*, because you need to be happy with yourself before others can be happy with you. Your husband and children will benefit from it, and you will feel so much better about yourself, your marriage, and your family. What wonderful news!

Judith,
I was so glad to read your post. As I said, it's not going to be easy no matter what, but the fact that he placed family and marriage at the top of his priorities and that he is acknowledging that his job is affecting that is a huge first step on his part.

And you beginning to do things for yourself is also a huge first step. As women, we are (generally) lax about taking care of ourselves because we are so intent on taking care of our families. But to me it's like the airplane oxygen masks. We're instructed to put ours on first, THEN help children or others who need help. The message being: if you don't take care of yourself you'll not be able to take care of others.

Donna said Your husband and children will learn to see you not just as a wife and mother but as a person too.
That is so true. I actually have two different groups of women I get together with once a month each, in addition to the other things I do just for me. My son who was probably around 17 at the time once told me he thought I was one of the coolest moms because I had a life outside of my family & kids, and that so many other moms he'd met were totally about their kids and had nothing outside of that.

I wish you and your husband the best in working things out!

Judith,

I ran across this post while searching for something else kitchen-related and just finished reading it in its entirety. You may have posted an update on this elsewhere since that time, but I just wanted to ask how you and your family have been doing lately?

It never ceases to amaze me how much caring and support others here have provided to various posters over the years I've been on these forums.

Hi jbrig - Judith recently posted on a different board. You may want to use the search engine using her name - just to let her know that you activated this thread. I hope she is doing great too!