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honeychurch_gw

adding insulation to 1873 home--conflicting advice

honeychurch
13 years ago

Hello,

I live in an 1873 4000 sq/ft home in central PA; currently have an oil furnace that heats the first floor and electric baseboard on the second floor that we would like to switch to either a conventional electric heat pump/AC or geothermal.

We had an energy audit last month and we are woefully under-insulated and leaky. I have had three insulation contractors come out and have gotten three completely different recommendations on the best way to "tighten" the house.

#1 recommends sealing basement rim joists with 2 part closed cell foam; blowing dense pack cellulose in the walls (r-19); completely sealing the currently vented attic (again with closed cell foam), and blowing r-39 cellulose on the attic floor (there is currently some old r-11 under the attic floorboards that would stay).

#2 recommends sealing basement joists with cc foam; blowing in fiberglass for the walls (or open cell tripolymer, probably too $$); completely sealing the attic with cc foam and also blowing cc foam on the attic ceiling/rafters, leaving the floor for storage.

#3 recommends sealing basement joists (at one point he mentioned foam, at another he talked about stuffing fiberglass into some of the larger spaces); blowing fiberglass in the walls (his company does the blown-in blanket, but I don't know if that goes in the walls?); and leaving the attic soffits/vents as they are (says sealing it will kill the roof), and blowing in fiberglass on the attic floor (building up a section that we could use for storage).

One more person is coming to give an estimate tomorrow, and I believe his company also works mainly with fiberglass.

I don't have prices for any of these yet--just trying to figure out cellulose vs fiberglass; seal the attic vs leave it open. A geothermal contractor came out today and said attics and basements don't have to be vented anymore, and that it's fine to seal it all up with the foam.

So which expert do I believe?

Thanks!

Comments (11)

  • david_cary
    13 years ago

    There are a lot of way of doing things. I don't think there is an absolute right or wrong.

    Cellulose vs fiberglass is a debate. There is a debate for a reason. Many people favor cellulose but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with fiberglass. I personally would decide based on price.

    The basement question I can't help you on. Is your basement vented now? Foam for a basement seems overkill but there are so many variables in a basement - particularly in regards to humidity levels.

    Sealing will not kill a roof. That is old school thoughts. I personally think you can get into trouble sealing an attic but the roof is not the issue. I think in your climate, there can be ice dam issues but that isn't an issue in mine. I don't think sealing an attic is cost effective particularly not if you are doing geothermal.

    If you have a vented basement, then you probably are fine sealing it but this can be an issue with humidity in some instances.

  • brickeyee
    13 years ago

    Cellulose tends to be easier on old houses without vapor barriers.

    Fiberglass can allow frost to form in the insulation and then melt.

    Cellulose tends to simply absorb the moisture without frost forming, then release it as vapor.

  • honeychurch
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    I appreciate your responses. I was liking the idea of the dense pack cellulose in the walls myself. Guy #1 is, however, far enough away that for him to do all the work, we'd have to put him up for a few days in a motel, which is kind of ruling him out. Guy #2 can do the cellulose, he said he just said if it was his own house, he'd do the blown-in fiberglass instead.

    I'm in kind of a rural area, so I am finding my options pretty limited as far as who services my town and what they work with.

    The reason we were told to seal the rim joists and attic vents is because we are having a ton of air exchange through these areas; we also have an old whole house fan (will be removed and patched) and if you stand under it you can feel the cold breeze blow into your face from the air coming into the attic.

    David Cary, could you please expand on your comment about sealing the attic not being cost effective especially if I am installing geothermal? The whole reason we are looking into sealing/insulating the house was because we had read it was useless to put in a new system if the home is leaky and drafty--is that wrong?

    Thanks!

  • david_cary
    13 years ago

    Sealing the attic by foaming the rafters is expensive. Let's say it costs $10k to cut the BTU loss by 100k/day.

    If you are using geothermal and 100k only costs $.50, it is hard to be cost effective. If you are using propane and that 100k btu costs $3 - it is easier to become cost effective.

    You can seal at attic for a lot less. Remove insulation, foam penetrations and replace insulation. Costs a lot less and makes a home less leaky. I think (and is JMO) that foaming the rafters is using a shotgun to kill a mouse. I don't know if that is a real expression but you get the point. Sure it will work but it is really overkill.

    A home is usually drafty because of windows. Sure the attic has a lot of penetrations but foaming the entire thing (at the rafters) is a lot of money to solve the problem.

  • theboneskes
    13 years ago

    we had a 1913 house( lived in Wisconsin)...no insulation in the walls, and r-13 in the attic when we bought it. We redid the house with new windows, true 2x4 walls with "dense pack" blown in which was r19, and 32" blown in the attic, which I think was r60... Also added Tyvek to the outside. Our bills were cut in half! I know it worked, what ever you do will help! Do it now, not later... saves alot of money in the long run!

  • chrisny
    13 years ago

    What about the doors and windows? If you are going to do Geo and SPF you real need the entire envelope to be tight.

  • honeychurch
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Our windows are all newer replacements put in by previous owners in the last 5-10 years (except 11 windows on the first floor that are original and have exterior storms for the winter). Our doors are all original, but we recently installed heavy duty storm doors over those and can no longer feel any air movement around the doorways---those suckers are tight!

    I still haven't received estimates from any of these contractors--that will obviously be a factor in our decision as well.

  • sage721
    13 years ago

    I'll second (or third) the motion that foaming the entire attic is overkill. I would go with the blown cellulose (or fiberglass) on the attic floor and leave the rafters go. It'll kill some storage space, but IMO that will be your best value, and best for the house. I'm not totally sold on sealing up rafters under slate being totally OK. Whatever you can get in the walls will be better than nothin. Depending on your home's exterior, cellulose would be better because of the frosting and possible mold issues with fiberglass. And, as for the basement, I'd have the sill sealed with the cc foam. That'll make a big difference. I also agree that windows are the biggest issue with any house, old or new. Make sure everything is caulked and otherwise sealed. I'd be willing to bet that the old windows (if they're glazed right) in conjunction with the storms are about as good as those newer replacements upstairs. Plus they're probably beautiful.... Whatever you decide to do, it'll make a difference. Especially closing up the drafty old fan hole!

  • ionized_gw
    13 years ago

    Forced-air heat? Where are the ducts? You gain little by insulating sealing and insulating the floor if you have leaky ducts in the cellar.

    Foaming the roof and sealing the attic is often much easier than sealing all the air leaks between the attic top floor rooms. How many holes have been drilled, over the years between the attic and living space and was it sealed well to start with? Can you find all leaks? Cellulose and fiberglass will insulate but not stop drafts. These drafts are sometimes induced by pressure differentials induced by forced-air HVAC.

    Sealed basements can be drier than vented ones. it depends on the ambient atmospheric humidity and the temp of the basement. There is often more moisture available from the air than the earth if the air is allowed to circulate.

    It is probably not a good idea to insulate both the attic floor and the roof deck. That is not advised in my area, but I am no where near PA geographically or climactically.

    Is the energy auditor qualified to advise you on improvements? If so, pay a fee and get pro advice. Good advice from people that know the local conditions and regulations is worth the price. Get references for an energy rater and make sure that they are trained.

  • energy_rater_la
    13 years ago

    "Get references for an energy rater and make sure that they are trained."

    ditto
    I am reading in other forums of 'free' or minimal cost
    energy audits.
    if the sole purpose of the audit is to sell the fix up package and leakage is
    defined simply as equivelent to 3x5 hole in wall
    it isn't showing you where the leakage is located.
    Ideally have the audit done by an independent company that
    tests before and shows you leakage sites with recomendations as to how to seal them..and tests once
    sealing has been completed.
    This way the auditors loyality is to the consumer..not the
    company doing the repairs.

    caulking seals a lot of leakage and is flexible enough to provide a long lasting seal. mastics for ductwork and hvac related leakage will provide a long lasting seal for hvac.

    knowing where the leaks are and how to seal them is the true goal of an energy audit..imo & experience.

    foam insulation provides air sealing and insulation in one.
    sealing the leakage and conventional insulation is the equal
    if enough of the air sealing is done. this takes time and materials..

    first you want an air barrier..then insulation.
    recessed lights that are not ICAT (insulation contact air tight) oversized cuts at bath fans, stove vents are large
    leakage sites.
    cuts in ceiling where supply boxes are installed should
    be mastic sealed as should return air and all duct connections,and plenum connections.
    sealing these (and other leakage sites) will improve your air barrier to the attic..

    if you install cellulose keep in mind that the 'dust' from the newspaper & borates is very fine and can enter the living space and duct system. this is recirculated throughour the house. any gap from attic to living space will allow these particles to enter the house, as will leaks
    at supply boxes, r/a and plenums.

    one place to find energy rates is natresnet.org

    best of luck.

  • honeychurch
    Original Author
    13 years ago

    Our energy audit was done by an independent company; he did the blower test/smoke sticks and used an infrared camera while we walked around, gave us a HERS score and heat load calc (as well as what he thought we could reduce it to by implementing his recommendations). He did include boxes for the recessed lights and whole house fan as well.

    We have received an insulation quote from his partner company based on his recommendations (#1 in my OP), but he said we should get other estimates as well, and that's where everyone has a different opinion and wouldn't do exactly what the auditor recommended (see #2 and #3 above).

    BTW, #4 came by and he noticed that the current R-11 under the attic floorboards is very spotty; he would rip up the perimeter boards and boards down the middle of the space and blow fiberglass into the cavities and replace the boards and blow fiberglass into the walls; I forget what he said about foam sealing the perimeter.

    Now I am trying to figure out how long I wait before I call to check up on my estimates!