i'm not a particularly religious person, but i was raised in the catholic faith by fairly devout parents...but, my parents were clear in their teaching of us that the bible was not a literal book at all, so that helped me as a kid come to terms with it...
as an adult, i would probably consider myself for the most part agnostic (not atheist), tho once a catholic, it is hard to truly be agnostic i think!
but, i do struggle with prayer and motives to prayer-always have... in all ways, whether it be health oriented, safety oriented, achievement oriented, gratitude driven or need driven, etc. seems hypocritical and very self-centered many times.
i'm with janis on this one--it would never occur to me to 'really' pray for a mercedes benz!! lol

but, i think if you're the type of person that prays all the time in all ways for all things-in gratitude and in need- and believe that god is responsible for the good and bad that happens in the world maybe it doesn't seem strange at all to 'pray' for 'stuff'...

I am a Christian but as mentioned by someone else, not a fanatic nor an expert.

I strongly believe in prayer. Prayer can be a time when we ask for something or a time when we simply talk to God. I don't believe we are to ask for material things, simply because we want something. I agree with Bumble on things that are material and needed. In the OP's example of someone asking for a kitchen reno, etc. I don't think that is something we take to God. Just my opinion!

I have heard of several tv preachers who almost seem to promote asking God for $$$, luxury vehicles, new homes, etc. and almost outright promising that if we ask, God will provide. I think that may contribute to people praying for every little thing now days.

I believe in praying for our NEEDS not WANTS. Honestly, I think there are people who don't know the difference.

I do believe that we should thank God for the blessings in our lives.

A bit off topic, but I have noticed here - people will ask for prayers, good thoughts, etc. in a certain situation. I, as others, realize there are many different people here with many different thoughts towards religion, God, and even prayer. However, so many times it seems that so few people respond to those requests. Even if you do not pray, I think we can have good thoughts for that person. It's sad to see the nasty threads (arguments, etc.) get more hits than a thread where someone is asking for our help.

tina

Like Running, I have the same problem. I am agnostic. So when someone ask for prayers I feel very awkward. I'd like to respond in kind but out of respect for others' religion I don't want to claim I will pray for them, when that is not something I believe in. I also think it would be wrong for me to be a "special occasion prayer" whose only religious activity would be to pray to ask God for something.

Praying for material things you want is too Tammy Faye Baker for me. (I use that reference to indicate how long ago I first heard that sort of prayer - and how shocked I was to hear it.) It's distasteful, IMO.

Perhaps using prayer references so casually today is a result of the current state of facile public religiosity.

Recasting one of my Mother's favorite sayings: Religious belief is as religious belief does, and not as religious belief talks.

L.

I am Episcopalian and we are encouraged to think for ourselves in such matters. The bible is a wonderful source of allegory and parable and even history, but we do not "believe" in it as a literal source of truth. The idea that people ask God for parking places, a spot on the cheerleading team or a Mercedes is offensive, even though the people who commit these acts against prayer are often very sincere. I always believed that the very first order of prayer is to give thanks for the blessings of life and the love that one has from his or her family, friends and creator. In the Lord's Prayer we only ask that "thy will be done."

I ask not for things, but for blessings: patience, gratitude, a sense of humor, the grace to accept things i cannot control, and the sense to make good decisions.

I am a Christian, and I honestly don't think I have ever prayed for anything material. I pray prayers of gratitude, safety for my family, that God's will be done in my life, comfort and healing for those who are suffering, ill, and/or grieving, and The Serenity Prayer (acceptance, courage, and wisdom).

I'm a Christian and do more thanking than asking.

kswl said it for me, I only ask "thy will be done."

Perhaps because it's easier to turn over stuff to God instead of doing something to make it happen?

I believe in a God, who has a plan, but I'm also not sitting on my couch waiting for him to give me a new kitchen. Just the wisdom to know how to live my life and make the right decisions that will eventually lead me to what I need in life (and it's probably, for me, not a new kitchen right now!).

So the deeply religious lady that told me "the Bible says you have to be very specific about what you are praying for" - as in asking for ABC, or helping XYZ - was incorrect?

I have never heard of praying *precisely* for something tangible~~dear Lord, I would love to have glazed cabinets in my kitchen.LOL Praying for someone who is ill, or loss of a loved one is specific, but it's not a tangible thing, nor is praying for more strength, patience, guidance, whatever.

That said, I don't pray for 'things', but I do sort of will them into my life~~such is the power of positive thinking, and books like The Law of Attraction/The Secret.

Have you crossed the line of positive thinking and *know* you can have alsmost anything you ask for? And yes, I am of sound mind. LOL ;o)

Allison, that's something to look into, but even if it is in the Bible, I don't think it's true. Look at all the hardship in the world, from being homeless etc. Don't you know those people have prayed so much their knee's are raw after many years of praying?

I'm very much a Christian, and the new Testament says God does answer prayers and the Bible gives examples.

Except the cynic in me thinks answered prayers are just conincidences. I didn't always think this way though. As I've gotten older I see so much pain. Two people could be in the same situation, but only one of them ends up okay while both prayed.

I dunno, but I plan on asking God! lol

First of all, not all people who pray agree on the same things. Who are they praying to, why are they praying, what do they expect to receive, and what makes them think they will get it?

Generally, in the USA, when people talk about praying usually we think they must be a Christian. But the term Christan has come to mean different things to different people and is basically why we have many different denominations.
(they might also not even loosely be Christian, they may be praying to angels, to satan, to the gods of nature, to Allah, to their inner guide, etc.)

Each denomination has their set of beliefs, it is their
statement of the doctrines that guides their church.
On their website, it will be a prominent part of who they are. A Southern baptist will have different beliefs than a Seventh Day Adventist who will be different from a Lutheran.
They don't all think all denominations should be included in the term Christian either.
Some of the differences have to do with the way the services are conducted, others are based on doctrine.

Who God is and what that encompasses, for instance.
The bible, whether it is inspired, infallible or
an allegory. Whether Jesus was real and what is the trinity.
How we get to heaven. Who goes. Those are some of the big things that those who call them Christians differ in.
But the list is nearly endless.

So, prayer, and the hows, whys, whats, whens, also are something that is not agreed upon.

Sometimes God's answer is "no".

Exactly Olliesmom. I agree with that. It's sometimes hard to pray "thy will be done", because "thy will" may not be "my will".

Bumble,you make some good points. Religion - or not - is a very personal thing. There are all kinds. If I ask for prayer for someone - I try to remember to ask for good thoughts, etc. also because not everyone "prays", etc.

I work with a Muslim and have learned some very interesting things about her religion. It is interesting to me what others believe, their religion, etc.

tina

Religions certainly are interesting, with all their differing beliefs and interpretations, and they have changed over the centuries. And everyone's own religion and interpretation is the correct one, at that time.

I would venture to say that if there is a god, or many gods, that religion is offensive to him or them.

Catholic convert here (one of my better decisions in life.) I agree with all of the above re prayer generally shouldn't be for material things, but I think exceptions should be made for people in real financial difficulty, especially if there are children to feed & clothe. It isn't offensive if someone prays for a new refrigerator if the old one broke and there were kids in the home & not enough money to buy a new fridge.

Praying for a parking space is forgiveable ;)

In the broad sense, every belief system is a religion. Whether it is organized or not. Humanism, pantheism...
Materialism, some are dedicated to it.

In the same vein, I wonder what Christians' reactions to the Christian Mingle ads are. How do you feel about a commercial enterprise promising to "Find God's match for you"? I certainly don't have a problem with people of the same faith searching each other out, but I don't like the marketing aspect of it. I find their ads obnoxious.

Also, I work in a RE office and one of the agents had buyer clients who were "praying" that the seller would have to take a lower offer. This agent is very religious, and told them that is was wrong to pray for their personal benefit at someone else's expense.

I also hear people (mostly women) who preface things by saying "as a Christian...". Well, I don't care if you are Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic or Pastafarian, it's your actions and how you treat others that counts.

"I also hear people (mostly women) who preface things by saying "as a Christian...". Well, I don't care if you are Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic or Pastafarian, it's your actions and how you treat others that counts."

I agree Terri.

I'm certainly not one to tell someone else how to pray, but that is not something I would pray for. I mean, if I wanted the house badly, I might pray about it, but I don't believe it is right to ask for a lower offer, etc. Just my thoughts though.

"I also hear people (mostly women) who preface things by saying "as a Christian...". Well, I don't care if you are Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, Agnostic or Pastafarian, it's your actions and how you treat others that counts."

I totally agree.

Pastafarian ... I love it!

I pray for parking spaces:) I am a Christian and I believe that God provides every good thing in my life, however big or small, physical and spiritual(James 1:17). I pray constantly through the day (1 Thessalonians 5:17 ). My prayers include
-Praise (1 Corinthians 14:15)
-Thanksgiving (1 Thessalonians 5:18)(Ephesians 5:20)
-Confession (1 John 1:9 )
-Asking on behalf of self and others (Philippians 4:6)(1 Timothy 2:1)(James 5:16)

Here are some examples of material things in my prayer life:

When DH & I moved into our first house we did not have a dining set. I had seen one that I admired, but it was just too expensive. I scoured the secondhand market and frankly spent too much of my time and energy on this want. I confessed my sin, asked forgiveness, expressed my desire for the set. I asked the Lord to provide a set that would please me at a price we could responsibly afford, or to remove the desire from my heart. The next day I saw a classified advertisement for an estate sale which mentioned a nearly identical set (same maker, vintage, line). I couldn�t go to the sale on either of the first two days. I arrived on the final day of the sale to find the set still there and for 1/10th the price I had been seeing.

When I was a divorced mother with a tight budget I had to buy a car. I had two big concerns. I wanted to pay for the car myself, and I had to shop for the car without my father or brother (they would have been happy to help me find a car, it was just time and circumstance). I didn�t know very much about cars and didn�t want to end up with a lemon/money pit. I asked God to provide me with a safe, reliable car, priced under $X dollars, and to make it very obvious to me which car I should choose. He did just that.

I wanted a particular house and prayed for it. We did not get the house and between DH�s travel and various family visits, it really wasn�t practical to look for another at that time. Shortly thereafter we were hit with several very expensive problems. I am so thankful that God did not give me what I wanted and that we remained in our small, inexpensive house.

I am currently praying about a kitchen remodel. My kitchen was ugly and not very well designed when we bought this house, but it is filled with light and so much larger than what I had before. It has a wonderful view and we enjoy it. Today, it is still ugly, still not well designed, and starting to fall apart. We will need to replace it in the next couple of years, possibly sooner rather than later. I am asking God to make the when, the scope, and the details clear to us. Addition or alter the footprint? Wait for more to fall apart or proceed? Should the budget be shoestring, commensurate with neighborhood, TKO dream level? I am not worrying about any of this, but am asking God to show me his will.

These prayers about material things are not the bulk of my prayer life, but when I have a concern about anything material, I do pray about it without hesitation. I believe that God wants me to take ALL of my concerns to him. I don�t believe in Prosperity Gospel/Name it and Claim it/Word of Faith. I think they are false teachings and that Scripture warns us against them (1 Timothy).

Some people that pray about kitchen remodels and parking spaces may have the same Bible-based spiritual life that I do. Some say "pray" but mean "wish." Too many explanations to try to name them all:) I have included some Scripture references in case anyone would like to explore why I believe what I believe.

I do not believe in a supreme being, but may look into Pastafarianism. :)

I was reared as a Christian (Methodist), but even as a child I was never satisfied that all mankind must accept it"s precepts to "see God". I have continued to be a person of faith , a belier in One God for all, and all gods are one.
Always wished John Lennon's lyrics to his most wonderful song read"......Imagine ONE religieon.." Believing ( the potential for) good exits in alli, I cringe hearing" as a Christian, or blank, blank...' good Christian...".
I find the exclusivity of it offensive. I no longer will say I feel " blessed"' , which infers God finds me special(-er..ha,) than others not so blessed.
This is a fascinating topic, but only with others whose minds are open.
Also, a deep one and it's supper time, so I quit.. God bless you all.( which I have kept))

What a wonderful example you are, Rio! I pretty much do the same thing and have seen God answer so many imporatnat and insignificant prayers.
I thought about this thread today while giving a quick "Thank You, Lord!" after making a whole bunch of stoplights. It's not that I expected to make them, or thought I deserved to make them (If I had managed my time better I would be way ahead of schedule and not late, supposedly) but was grateful that the way was open for me to make them. That's it. God's tiny, tiny bit of grace in my life today.
Often, His grace (unmerited favor) shows up in much more profound ways, but it is always grace-undeserved.
Or, as rio, says, answered prayers.
Often His answer is YES.

Rio samba, if you believe that those passages from the bible are actually directives, then I don't wonder that you pray for "things." Since I do not believe that those verses are there to tell me what to do in specific instances, they would not be proof that God wishes me to pray that way, or incentive to do so. Jesus said about prayer to " pray like this," and then gave out the Lord's prayer ---and btw without the little Protestant flourish on the end (for thou art the glory, etc).

The apostle Paul, otoh, had a great deal to say about prayer and everything else, but as he was an insufferably pompous, homophobic misogynist and former Christian torturer, I can't take his words as seriously as other Christians seem to do.

Well, as an atheist, I have to say that I don't care what anyone prays for or to for that matter.

Whether it be large or small, materialistic or charitable, trivial or significant - that prayer is between you and your God. On a silly note, it's not like a prayer for a good parking space is going to take God's attention away from the sick and needy is it? So what does it matter?

I think people say they are praying for something or other because it's just an expression or because they truly are praying - it doesn't matter to me - it conveys the same message.

Of course, I don't pray but I do hope, wish and dream - for me and for others. I love it when someone says they are praying for me - because that means they want some good for me - nothing wrong with that!

I gotta say, there are a lot of thoughtful, open-minded and interesting responses on this thread!

Kswl, I agree with you. Raised Lutheran I'm supposed to take the Bible literally, but of course I don't. God gave me a mind and with it reasoning capabilities. I choose to embrace that gift. I reject mind control.

When I pray for "his will to be done" it's to say I don't specifically tell him what I think he should do. I pray for his help and never for specifics. If he's there he already knows what is in my mind and heart. I let him know I appreciate his grace and know if something is happening that is out of my control, the outcome is by his will not mine.

One of my all-time favorite "news" items from theonion.com:

Blind Girl's Prayers Answered

"NO," says God.

Kswl, I totally agree with your first comment--the "God as ATM" mentality is widespread.

As for Paul...well, I also agree with your characterizations of him. He certainly was all those things. However, I love Paul ...not even in spite of, but because of these very human flaws. His radical conversion, really a metamorphosis, (the theological term would be metanoia) is the most powerful in scripture. His revolutionary, groundbreaking letters speak to me more than anything else, about his love of Christ, his passion, his vision of new life and deep faith.

Paul grappled with the issues of sin, death, transformation, law, eternal life, communion, and love. I can identify with a saint who "struggles not to do the very thing he promised he wouldn't do." A very human saint, he was deeply in touch with his capacity for sin. Paul gives me hope like no one else can! When I first read Paul, I thought, "Maybe I can also reach beyond my negative tendencies and find new life through loving Christ." He played a huge part in my personal conversion. Just another POV!

SG, I completely respect your opinion. I think Paul then is like many converts now-- especially non-smokers....he annoys me but converts others :-)

Paul's conversion reminds me of the story of the farmer who has a donkey for sale. "This is the hardest working donkey in the county," the farmer boasted. He'll pull a plough all day long." The farmer takes a prospective buyer out to see this paragon of hard work, who is yoked to a plough and calmly standing still. The farmer picks up a two by four and whacks the donkey in the head as hard as he can. The donkey blinks, then moves forward at a nice clip. Aghast, the buyer cries, "I thought you said he is hard working?"

"He is," replied the farmer. "But first, you got to get his attention."

Yes, I can relate to the donkey too!

Well said Rio. I believe as you do and believe that God wants us to take ALL of our concerns to him and to pray without ceasing. Thank you for mentioning the name it/claim it portion of some people's faith. That style of worship is on tv alot. I will re-read 1 Timothy now that I've seen your post. Thanks for sharing!

I think God has a great filter and knows what should go in the SPAM box and what to actually listen to.

i am fascinated by religious/bible based discussions and listening to others' interpretations and beliefs- it's such a passionate subject for so many...
i have met some very strong believers, especially when i lived in the deep south, and some who have interpreted the bible very, very literally... very unlike my own belief.

what i don't like is when people believe that god is responsible for the good and the bad in our world and excuse themselves of responsibility...
or, quick, go to confession and you will be forgiven and you can then go on your merry way...

if church and prayer and bible classes help you make wise decisions, work hard, take personal responsibility and lead a good life, that's awesome!
but, if the 'thy will be done' sentence from the lord's prayer is used to help make up for/excuse for unwise, uneducated/ignorant, irresponsible decisions, etc, or explain the good that we work hard to achieve, it's unfortunate imo... i'm logic oriented.

"I think God has a great filter and knows what should go in the SPAM box and what to actually listen to."

Natesgram, that is PERFECT.

When Abraham came with the teaching of one God, the only thing new as far as his followers were concerned was that instead of praying to 10 gods for 10 things, they prayed to one God for the same 10 things. They prayed to a God who rewarded them when they were good, punished them when evil.

But the nature of God is not like that. Rain falls on the just & on the unjust. God is equally available to the saint & to the sinner.

Does prayer change God, or does prayer change us, then? God expresses God, and that expression appears as you, me, us. We all have the divine spark within. We show forth God's glory through the divine grace operating within us.

As we develop a mature view of God that is not Santa Claus-ish that does not mean we give up praying. But, prayer now has a new meaning. Prayer becomes a way to unite with our source, our creator. The daily grind and things of the world can shut us off to the holy. But through prayer, we seek relationship, and are better able through this relationship to be the instruments of God on earth.

We can let God speak to us through prayer, or dominate the conversation; telling, asking, directing, rather than listening. Or, we can choose to open ourselves, through prayer and contemplation, to better know the nature of God.

It is the responsibility and privilege of every person to to lift the world in some measure beyond its present level of consciousness. Union with our creator, through the quiteness & stillness of prayer, enables & empowers us to do that. Increasingly we find ourselves "practicing the presence of God" as Brother Lawrence wrote.

The God whose grace gave us this light expects that we shall shed that light. Earthly kings are served, but spiritual kings are servants.

kswl - beautifully stated. I agree wholeheartedly.

I have heard the term "prosperity gospel" thrown about in recent years, and am not quite sure what it means. My limited knowledge supposes that it has to do with praying for blessings - material or otherwise - and then thinking that you can believe it into being. That thoughts bring about results. "If I'm a positive thinker and prayer, I'm sure to obtain/receive my heart's desires." I have a very difficult time accepting such a tenet; in fact, I find it a slap in the face to those who suffer materially (or otherwise), because it seems to say that they just don't think (or pray) positively enough.

I am not a fan of the prosperity gospel but I know that I have to be equally vigilant about what be considered a "poverty gospel." Sometimes there is a feeling that those who are poor are more humble, godly, etc and anyone who is rich has attained that position by oppressing others or some other less holy means. The dynamics of spirituality can be fascinating to me, especially in the ways they reveal where we are at and how far we still need to go.

Busybee, those people just need to read the book of Proverbs!
God doesn't accept excuses, but He does always forgive true repentance (which leads to changed behavior).

Beautiful description of prayer, stinky gardener. That is my view of prayer, but I could never articulate it even half as well.

Yes, s.g. I read it twice. Very well put. May I ask you denomination?>) marti

"The God whose grace gave us this light expects that we shall shed that light. Earthly kings are served, but spiritual kings are servants."

This is exactly what God's Will means. When something bad happens, I hear or read, "It was God's Will." No, God's Will is to spread the Word and to be kind to one another."

I had to throw that in because it's always bugged me when I hear people say it was His Will when something goes wrong. lol

Daisyinga, thank you!

Thank you, Martinca! I'm Catholic, but it was through some time spent in the Episcopal Church that my adult formation as a Christian took shape. I learned and grew with some wonderful people. It was a special place and time.

Oakley, I quite agree.

Agree also about God's will. Plenty happens that is NOT His will---because WE have the free will to do as we please. It is the discernment of His will that is the difficult part... trying to figure out which path or action would best serve that will.... and those are usually found by following the commandments, the golden rule, etc. By acting in accordance with those tenets we have a better chance of placing our actions in God's will than by doing whatever we damn well please, regardless of the consequences.

I know many people think religion useless, but I am a pragmatist and think quite the opposite. If a person is truly trying to live in accordance to God's will, by looking carefully at his or her actions in the light of the commandments and the example lived by Jesus (or Buddha, or other revered prophets), that process makes the person a better citizen and improves our society.

May I just say that I really admire how this thread has maintained an accepting and respectful tone? That really says a lot about the participants here!

kswl, many of us who are not religious and do not believe in a god also work very hard to be better people (and not for any reward that may await)and better citizens. We do work very hard to improve the world and society in which we live. We also respect the teachings of men such as Jesus and the Buddha. Just sayin'...and not trying to provoke an argument and not making any judgments of anyone other than myself.

Cyn,I don't disagree! I think people can benefit from the examples of great men and women, past and present, without having to invest intellectually or emotionally in the divinity of any one of them. I think in history it was necessary for people to be "believers" to convince them to act in accordance with a code that might otherwise seem counterintuitive. Belief in, or fear of, a higher power or god was one good way to insure compliance with basic behavioral rules. I personally thought that was all it was until as an adult I attended a church and felt myself changed as a result. Where I once appreciated the role of religion in the natural history of man as a means to an end, for me, now, it IS the end. I also appreciate that not everyone feels or believes as I do and honor any philosophy that is the outcome of thought, and thoughtfulness.

May I just say that I really admire how this thread has maintained an accepting and respectful tone? That really says a lot about the participants here!

I so agree Sunnycottage!

It's very interesting to read everyone's views. We don't all have to agree to get along and understanding where each of us is coming from can only make us closer. I admire those of you who can articulate so well.