LOL!!!! Delamination is a defective product and that Schon is known for the issues you just described. They can't call it sheering, because it is not. It is a defective board design from the get go. If they are going to call it and market it as an engineered wood, they better go by the ANSI specs for delamination. There is nothing in your home, that can measure to the tests ANSI puts engineered flooring through, not even a flood. If you read it must only have a small % of failure in 3 flood cycles.

The American National Standard for Engineered Wood Flooring, ANSI/HPVA EF 2002
3.5 Bond Line �" All adjacent surfaces of each ply shall be uniformly and securely
bonded. The flooring shall conform to the requirements of the bond test described in 4.2
3.7 Construction �" The flooring pieces shall be of balanced construction, which means
that they are free from warp or twist to the extent that they do not interfere with the
installation or negatively affect the intended use of the product. The purpose of this
requirement is to provide a product which will perform satisfactorily over the typical
range of humidity and temperature in an indoor environment, when installed according to
the instructions of the manufacturer. Any construction with an even or odd number of
plies, and any combination of thicknesses and shrinkage characteristics that meets the
requirement for balanced construction is permitted. No two adjacent plies shall have
coinciding openings greater than 12.7 mm (1/2 inch)
4.2 Bond Line Test �" Two test specimens, 50.8 mm (2 inches) wide by 127 mm (5
inches) along the grain, shall be cut from each flooring sample tested. The specimens
shall be cut from opposite sides of the flooring after all tongue and groove portions have
been removed. The specimens shall be submerged in water at 24 C+-3C (75 F +-5F) for 4
hours, and then dried at a temperature between 49 and 52 C (120 and 125 F) for 19 hours,
with sufficient air circulation to lower the moisture content (based on oven-dry weight) of
the specimens to a maximum of 8 percent. This cycle shall be repeated until all
specimens fail or until thr ee cycles have been completed, whichever occurs first. The
flooring shall be considered as failing when any single delamination between two plies of
either specimen is greater than 50.8 mm (2 inches) in continuous length, over 6.4 mm
(1/4 inch) in depth at any pint, and 0.08 mm (.003 inch) in width as determined by a
feeler gauge 0.08 mm (0.003 inches) thick and 12.7 mm (1/2 inch) wide. Specimens shall
be examined for delamination at the end of each cycle. Delamination due to tape at joints
or inner plies or defects allowed by the grade shall be disregarded. For performing the
bond line test, the flooring samples shall be selected in multiples of ten in order to
provide for a sufficient number of specimens (two specimens per sample) to which the
acceptance levels are applied. Ninety-five percent of test specimens shall pass the first
cycle, and eighty- five percent of test specimens shall pass the third cycle.

Humidity issues are ESSENTIAL for any type of wood product. Wood is an organic substance. If it gets too dry it wil crack, lift, twist etc.
The previous poster was happy to mention The American National Standard for Engineered Wood Flooring. This standard also states that the homeowner/enduser MUST maintain the proper humidity levels in the area of installation. The standard is 35 - 55 % relative humidity.
That means you must run a humidifier or take other steps to ensure the proper levels are met. If this is neglected the blame is always on YOU.
READ YOUR WARANTY

Standay,

Relative Humidity (RH) issues are on you, as the installer/homeowner/end-user.

If RH was out of bounds at the time of the installation or during the products life cycle, and RH was the failure factor (cause), then the liability issue does NOT reside with the seller nor the manufacturer, but with you and/or the installer.

I agree with lumber liquidators, Schon, and ryannfloor 100%.

All Lumber Liquidators does is sell product.

They can not be held liable for your failure to check moisture levels at the time of installation and maintainting proper levels during the life of the product.

DIY flooring sales and installation isnt always a cost saving as you found out the hard way.

The design of the construction is defective.

Thick wear layer with a different species as the core, with different shrink and swell coefficients.

Delamination is a manufacturers defect. Engineered as they are calling it, will handle higher & lower rH then solid wood. This claim was never seen, until manufacturers started producing unbalanced construction. The whole reason for engineered, is for conditions which exist, in the desert, and along the coasts, along with concrete and known moisture from early morning dew points.

I must have missed the part where the poster mentioned delamination occurring.

It wasn't mentioned. What I see is dry cupping from extremely low RH levels

The poster makes one legitimate complaint, that is, why would a flooring retailer who sells in an area where interior wood equalizes to 6% MC have products at 8-10% MC (making an assumptions that the wood has shrunk and cupped)? Any wood flooring can be dried to such levels, if necessary, to assure less movement when installed. I would think that good flooring installers in the desert west deal with this issue on a regular basis and know what to do to prevent such problems.

I'm far from an expert but I remember the same discussion when I worked for Bruce. They had to dry the wood differently when it was sold in Denver. Also had issues in Montana where dry wood stove heat is prevalent in winter. Not that its an excuse but it lumber Liquidators, so they can buy the stuff that didn't sell well or for whatever reasons.

Dry cupping, with engineered??

Cupping is a moisture difference from the top to the bottom of the boards, on solid wood.

Cupping can happen if the top is force dried, but not from regional average rH. Engineered is more stable than solid wood, unless it is not really engineered wood. Un balanced construction of the boards, is not engineered wood, which they market and sell it as.

"Dry cupping, with engineered??"

That's exactly what I mean FG. :) I know you find folly with that, but I don't.

I do agree that manufactures need to do a much better job conveying this potential problem to end users.

I Have the same issue of Engineered Wood Delaminating. I installed 1100sf of Elegance Mandalay Walnut 3.5" in October 2009 and in Jan 2010 i noticed that my floor is starting to delaminate. I contacted the store and he sent an inspector out and as soon as the inspector walk into my house he immediately said "yep its a very bad defect" The store owner told me that he would replace the materials only and not the labor to take the floor out and reinstall another type of wood in. Do i have any right on this matter? can anyone tell me? Im PISSED....

Schon installation instructions are clear and regulating interior temperature and relative humidity is something the consumer is responsible for managing. When the outside climate is dry and the need for humidification may be a requirement, consumers are recommended to use a humidifier to regulate the interior conditions.

We took an extra step to inspect the flooring just like the tile and carpet industries do to uncover the source of the problem in response to your concerns. These are independent of our company and if a manufacturing defect is found, we'll stand behind the product, but we are not responsible for installation or site related concerns.

In almost every instance where we see these types of complaints, the consumer was not present when the product was installed, they failed to oversee the project, the floor care instructions are not followed, and no manufacture should be expected to cover issues unrelated to the direct manufacturing of the product. One or more of these types of failures can result in a negative experience. Please read the invoice, warranty, and installation instructions so you know how to protect your investment and properly care for the product.

We're sorry to hear this happened and its a difficult lesson to learn afterwards when this could have been avoided by reading the instructions / warranty.

This is not our preferred way for consumers to learn how to care for flooring, but if this keeps someone else from having this type of problem by stressing the importance of reading this information; it will lessen these types of poor experiences in the future.

help! We were thinking of buying maufactured bamboo from lumber liquidators> How do we find out if it's appropriate for our area and home (Santa Cruz, CA and concrete slab)?

I too am having problems have Schon engineered flooring, purchased from Lumber Liquidators and profesionally installed using the most expensive glue available at the time, in the summer of 2007. The some wood is cupping, but most is delaminating. Our home is not excessively humid or dry. I believe these issues are primarily manufacturing faults and now I have about 1800 + sq ft of wood floors that look like junk. We are not happy with this issue to say the least and we will take this matter up with Lumber Liquidators and we intend to seek monetary or physical replacement.

I also am very discusted with the results of our newly installed hardwood floors. Schon products are CHEAP! After reading all the complaints from other consumers, I can't believe LL still makes this poor quality product. Our floors have only been in for 2 weeks and I'm already wanting to replace them. We had our table and chairs on the floor (with rolly wheels) with about 160 lbs on the chair; result=dents all over the floor. REALLY?? 160 lbs can dent HARDWOOD floor??? Come on!! I would understand if it was 300 or 400 lbs but not 160!!!Now I'm noticing other scratches and dents and realizing this is one cheap product.
I have seen plenty of other hardwood floors in people's homes that have lots of wear and tear, and traffic on their floors with no dents or scratches. Again, Schon is a very cheaply poor quality product that is "engineered" to fit to LL standards!
And what's worse, is that LL won't stand behind their product. I have filed a complaint and am just waiting to hear back. I would never reccommend this product to anyone and quite frankly would tell people to stay away from Lumber Liquidators all together!

You buy a cheap floor you get a cheap floor.
Is that so difficult?

LL doesn't make anything. They buy from mfctrs and sells closeouts, and odd lot flooring. Without knowing what species of wood you bought its hard to comment. Any wood can dent. Its not the amount of weight its the amt of wt per sq inch, that dents wood.

"Cupping is a moisture difference from the top to the bottom of the boards, on solid wood. "

Wow.

Just wrong.

Wood can be completely uniform in moisure content and have cupping, and all sorts of other changes in shape.

Chapter 3 of the USDA 'Wood Engineering Handbook' linked below will explain how wood changes size and SHAPE as moisture content changes (even if the change is uniform throughout the wood).

See Figure 3-3 especially.

Here is a link that might be useful: Chapter 3, Wood Engineering Handboook

LL Customer Care Response:

We've answered the concerns shared on this site March 22nd, and we see where some supportive comments have been made by people educated on wood products.

I can sum up flooring product failures for all readers. We've shopped the competition for you and no matter where you shop the warranties may vary in regards to periods of coverage, but two things are never going change and that is what's covered, and the importance of following the installations instructions to the letter. The root cause of the on line complaints point to failure to read these documents and you'll find the same types of issues with every product manufacturer you research.

No matter what you buy. If you do not follow directions and expect others to take responsibility for failing to follow directions, your expectations of companies and products are not realistic and these issues are completely avoidable by the simple act of reading, or hiring a professional once you�ve checked their reference and participate in the installation process. Thank you for reading this response and we feel people sharing such experiences help others understand what "not to do�, so there�s benefits to complaints when you read and understand what�s really at fault. No manufacturers are perfect, but the warranty is in place to make sure when a defect exists, you have protection and we�ll hold them accountable without hesitation. Taking care of problems�is not a problem, but covering poor installations and improperly maintained floors after the sale can be your own headache if you don�t follow the direction. Shop smart � Read what your responsibilities are, and what we�re responsible for!

I am in Arkansas and recently had Schon Cinnamon Birch engineered flooring installed. After a few months the floor is starting to delaminate in several areas one is a high traffic area but the other is under my dining room table where there is no moisture or much traffic. I purchased the product from LL and used a cleaning product purchased there. I'm confused, exactly what causes this problem? I read the instructions and didn't really get any understanding of specificaly what to use for cleaning only not to use water. I asked for cleaning instructions at LL and was told only to make sure the product didn't contain this that and the other. Again what DO you use to clean the floor and why is it delaminating?

I found some engineered and solid Hickory flooring I might like on the Lumber Liq. site on-line. I called the store in Spokane, WA and . . . . . WOW! What a surprise! The guy I talked with said he was the manager (I doubt that) and his response to my questions about the products was to avoid saying anything that even came close to answering my questions and when I pushed it he became very argumentative, belligerent and combative. That tells me that he is concealing what he knows to be an inferior or defective product. This, along with the negative posts, convinced me to avoid this company.

Guys from LL,
We have seen a lot of negative posts in regards to your products, I am a retailer in El Paso, TX and a client just solicited a quotation for 3550 sq ft and just went to see your showroom but no one ever told me nothing in regards to humidity, which floors are best for these areas, etc...

I have seen posts of people that have read the instructions and followed them and still your products have not met the proper standard and/or espectations.

I think in this forum you guys are loosing the battle and also loosing many clients cause your comments aren`t being too convincing.

as a future client-to-be what should I hcekck before an instalation and after...I dont want any surprises...It is a big sale and I dont want to lose any money...

I purchased and DIY installed Bellawood 3/4" oak flooring from LL 3 years ago and am very happy and satisfied with the results. The floors are still beautiful. I don't know about Schon products, but I was very happy with my LL experience.

I pulled my guy's off a LL tigerwood job yesterday. The issue is with the sheen. Many of the boards have glossy areas in what is to be a satin finish. A secondary problem is that more than a few boards have dents already in them. Both these problems are seldom seen by us.
My problem? One and a half days worth of labor up in smoke and a screwed up schedule. The contractor supplied the material and hired us to install it.
Just how much money was saved here?
Another point. He was sold the sound deading barrier...for over a garage!

I'm planning on using LL hardwood---but my flooring contractor said he will only install their Bellawood products. He said he has installed "1000's" of sq. ft. of this product with no problem.

Some friends of mine just told me they used LL solid hardwood (and even used LL installers; didn't ask if it was their BW line) and are very happy with their floor.

When I went to LL, the people who work there are extremely knowledgable. For example, I live in the Midwest where humidity can be a problem and they addressed this issue with me thoroughly.

They also have an "A" rating with the Better Business Bureau. There were complaints (208) but they were all handled to the customers satisfaction according to BBB.

Anyway, I think LL is getting a bad rap----not sure why??

I purchased a significant quantity of schon flooring I bought a LL because their sample flooring most closely matched the exhisting flooring that was in the house when we purchased it I know you can never match exactly but it was close I wish I had red the reviews posted above before I purchased the floor. We did not buy the most expensive but bought a mid -range engineered red oak floor or should I say i thought it was. There are several things that upset me when I opened the box !st there are no expansion cuts in the flooring, it was made where? Virginia or China both are listed on the box. I wood on the bottom layer is cheap looking , the wood had been in the house for several months so it should have been climatized to the area , 2nd most of the floor is warped & I am not sure what to do about that, if a floor is dried properly one would think it shouldn't warp to that extent. 3rd color variation I am aware that there are color variances in every product but PINK when is red oak flooring that color & it is predominate in all the boxes along with some other various and assorted in descirbable colors for which there is no name.

This is really not a serious thraed.Lumber liquidators isn't the warrantor, the maker is.
The fault is all on the buyer. I've lived in very humid and very dry regions. If I bought construction products not meant for those areas, it would be my responsibility to know ahead of time and either to ameliorate the conditions with humidifier or humidification, and/or take the shorter lifetime expectation.

Sounds harsh but I am GLAD the OP didn't get warranty satisfaction from either LL or the maker, because frankly that just results in higher prices for the customer who bother to spend a bit of time learning what products are best for their application.

And if a product is defective why would you blame the retailer? if it is defective it is the makers fault and ethically and legally the makers warranty, not the seller. that goes for 99% of transactions in the US.

If you had bought that same product anywhere else it would be the maker you would have a possible claim with, not the seller.

LL makes a lot of their own flooring if not most as I recall. They make Bella that This Old House touts. They also make the Elastilon product they promote.

They should be selling woods appropriate for the region and applications they're selling it for. They were advising on appropriate woods when I went through their store.

Samantha,

Any flooring can be installed in any room in any region in any climate anywhere in the world ... and is done successfully many times a day!

enviromental conditions IN YOUR HOME dictate installability and longevity.

This liberal "blame everyone but myself" mantra really gets old.

Its called personal responsibility.

If you want someone else to accept your liability and responsibility for those things that are purely buyer responsibility, then be prepared to pay handsomely for it.

Go to a flooring retailer and pay retail for the product and installation.

Howevewr, that still will not pass off the liability and responsibility for the enviromental conditions IN YOUR HOME (HVAC, humidity control, etc).

There were hardwood floors, before there was the ability to control the interiors climate, hygrometers and moisture meters.....

The old Bruce 3/8 - 3 ply made 15-20 years ago, was able to live in any condition withing the 50 States.

Solid wood is solid wood.

Engineered wood is a balanced construction.

Manufactured wood is some crap thrown together at a certain moisture content. as soon as it is shipped from the factory in China and Indonesia, it starts getting stressed, from a change in moisture content.

Engineered warps, solid cups.

I posted this some time ago, hadn't been back till now. To those who say it's my fault and are happy it's bad, all I can tell you is I had the flooring professionally installed, used the materials the instructions called for (underlayment and all that), and did everything LL/instructions said to do. NO mention of humidity controls or warning were EVER made by LL; humidity concerns were NEVER pointed out to us at time of purchase. NEVER. IF LL had said, oh, by the way, you'll need a humidification system to keep the boards from cupping I would NOT HAVE PURCHASED IT!! Simple as that. To all you useless LL customer "care" people: The installer DID read the instructions, we DID use what they called for, and your floor FAILED. Your product was DEFECTIVE and you did NOT stand behind it. Unfortunately the flooring is still in as I haven't had time, energy or money to replace it yet. But I intend to, and it will all be ceramic tile next time. Too bad too as I like a lot of the aspects of wood floors.