Ceiling speakers and 'True' Surround Sound

13 years ago

Hi,

We are building a new home and have the option of wiring our family room for 5.1 "surround" sound through the placement of 5 in-ceiling speakers plus an in-wall subwoofer. Our family room space is not a traditional '4 sided' space, and one of the walls is almost completely taken up by a window bank; therefore wall mounting was not necessarily available and the in-ceiling setup seemed the most space-efficient way to go. We actually don't have a back wall due to placement of our center hall staircase.

Living room is about 15X18 if you drew a parallellogram over the floorplan, but there's a ton of open space. TV will be focused front and centered over the hearth.

I have read on this board and other HiFi audio sites that 'in-ceiling' 5.1 or 7.1 will not give you 'true' surround sound due to the fact that 'true' surround sound is meant to fire laterally and the ceiling speakers will be firing 'downward', or 'cascading' over the listener.

I've been in homes that have both setups and can't recall having had any specific difficulty or dislike for either; then again I'm not an audiophile. Would appreciate any thoughts or experiences.

TIA

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Comments (4)

yosemitebill
13 years ago
Hi:

5.1 (& 7.1) is used for the audio program on digital video sources in home theater systems. It was designed, and the sound is mixed with the intention that the front speakers are at ear level to the R/L of the screen and that the rear speakers are about three feet above ear level on the rear wall. And, it is very directional!

Music is two channel (excluding DVD-Audio) and only enhanced by the receiver if desired to create more spacial ambiance. But other than R/L it is non-directional.

I have attempted to make the best of a bad situation for customers who had speakers installed in the ceilings during new construction and then tried to use them for 5.1 sound. I can tweak things on higher end equipment, using test discs, measurement equipment & black magic to make it better but it is never really right. The number one problem is that onscreen dialog is hard to make out on ceiling installations.

Oh, I almost forgot.. reflections! Coming from the ceiling directional sound can reflect on walls and surfaces and cause all kinds or anomalies. I have even had to suggest hanging tapestries and other things to reduce the reflections.

So, for music, ceiling speakers are great (the sound almost showers over you) but for surround sound, they just ain't gonna work!

I hope you can find somebody truly professional in you area that has worked with these issues and can suggest other alternatives.
montel (CA US 10b/Sunset 16)
13 years ago
Since I will be in a similar position next year I thought I would follow up.

Our new home build great room setup has the ability to have high quality in wall center channel, plus Front R/L, and an in wall subwoofer, all in the correct location relative to the TV. We won't have it over a hearth or fireplace, so the TV will be the main feature of that wall.

However, the rear channel speakers will have to be either on stands at the rear of the couch/seating area (not preferred) with speaker wires in the floor, or the 2 rear channel speakers will need to be in ceiling speakers.

I think this is a good compromise since we can up the quality of all speakers, plus in a 5.1 system the rears aren't as important as the fronts and center with regards to dialog. At least that is what I have been told. We won't have perfect enveloping surround sound with pinpoint accuracy but we will have a decent system - we hardly watch movies anyway - mostly sports and broadcast TV

Does anyone have other ideas for us???

We don't want to have any speakers or wires coming out of the floor - and can't use wireless since we don't want a plug in the floor either...

Thanks!
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Cool. Thanks so much for that input. I'll check out the link rumson. Thanks. DallasBill, are there some small bookshelf, or satellite speakers that can be added to the rear of the room to coordinate with the current speakers we have? How does one use the same speakers for music (AM/FM receiver, CD player, phonograph) as well as for the movies on the DVD player? I know I need an "impedence matching" (is that it?) speaker selector to tie in the speakers throughout the rest of the house (2 pair in the great room, one pair outside, one pair in garage, and the one pair and subwoofer in the fourth bedroom with the TV and DVD). (DOES the subwoofer get hooked into its own selector switch, though???) So for the fourth bedroom, where TV/DVD will be needing speakers, as well as CD needing speakers, how do the same speakers get tied into two different sources? We just want a basic set up, with basic entry-level price points. We are not entertainment hardware geeks. Remember, this is AV for Dummies for me!!! Thank you, Sherry.
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jejvtr, FWIW: The arrangement I suggested for the surrounds is directly from DOLBY LABS specs. Now if they who invented Dolby Surround don't know where the speakers should go, then I suppose no one does. Crutchfield? Now there's a true professional outfit. Sort of like Best Buy/Circuit City for the internet. Gauranteee they know ALL there is to know (sarcasm if you don't recognize it) about AV systems. "You offer such great advice and in such a polished tone, it makes me want to hang on your every word, follow all your threads and responses - let me guess you are in your 20's and you really do "know it all" don't you? (sic)" I'm sorry I don't come across with a "polished tone" as you would like. But it REALLY bothers me when someone NOT in this profession gives such glaringly incorrect advice. I have a difficult time being politically correct when dealing with ignorance. My bad that. But I can't see sugar coating it. Out of ignorance you gave bad advice. And, to me, giving bad advice is stupidity. I equate that ging of bad advice with giving road directions when you really don't know the way. Not a smart thing to do. And FYI I actually do not claim to "know it all". And, unless I started in this industry before I was born, I am not some 20 year old (30 or 40 either for that matter).
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First I would like to say that you made a good decision to not put the TV above the fireplace. Thank you. You are a great example to everyone else. To answer your question I would do a mix of the two. I would do the in-wall speakers for the LCR and back. If you really desire to have 7.1 or atmos I would put the ceiling speakers in the location of the first picture. As far as the subwoofer goes, it really depends. The best thing to do is test out different locations. If you are in the stages of wiring your home during construction then I would wire it for both locations. Keep in mind that this room was not designed for sound so there will be some less than optimal places to sit while watching a movie. Dolby has some pretty good information on where to place speakers in an ideal situation. Here's a link to that page. Dolby Speaker Setup Guide
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If you must patch rather than match or redo the room, and if changing furnishings to set something in front of the wall damage will not work, then, for whatever you do add to the places where adding a picture would be uncommon, then the idea would be to have the changes to such uncommon places appear to be a deliberate addition for practical use or as art to enable to you to add something that will represent your own interests. While you may not want to hang a traditional picture in such places, creating an open niche https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6c/d3/87/6cd38715530988e123906cd55544a47f--wall-bookshelves-bookcases.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/736x/17/73/32/177332af450130b191410ad0755197e4--small-bathrooms-beautiful-bathrooms.jpg or shallow closet with door might https://i.pinimg.com/736x/50/45/59/504559ffa2d294c27069e3fe7868bc86--wall-stud-recessed-shelves.jpg or or covering the holes with a board (think upscale kitchen cabinet door or small unusual carving https://secure.img2-fg.wfcdn.com/im/65545158/resize-h400-w400%5Ecompr-r85/2975/29757638/sarwaedi-hand-carved-wood-owl-sculpture-panel-wall-decor.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/736x/20/37/a4/2037a47ef255482d7df48a70ccb1eb1a--wooden-art-wood-planks.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c9/57/4b/c9574b8af4133cba7c0d65a8cc34e780--wooden-sculptures-wall-sculptures.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/40/38/56/403856de62e7a312a8d1da529bb0826c.jpg or even add a single longer vertical board https://i.pinimg.com/236x/cf/c1/cd/cfc1cd8146717fe7834f2b15dc6fb97f--decoration-home-home-decor.jpg or even a plain wide shelving board affixed vertically, from baseboard to ceiling, and add unusual art to that, perhaps even wire or metal wall art might be considered -- their unusual shapes or groupings of related pieces could serve to cover unusual places even while being placed at not so odd a place. http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mFDzC8EXDcu6_ykEpWJU0Hw.jpg A grouping of birds over trees could cover spots high and/or medium and/or low. https://i.pinimg.com/736x/95/2a/42/952a421035a7bc268aa9d286ec673812--metal-wall-art-decor-art-metal.jpg or a tree w/trunk to baseboard might be painted onto the wall where repainting is needed. http://www.diarytale.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/IMG_20170520_112906_AO_HDR.jpg Shelving might work in some instances: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f4/7d/d4/f47dd43af9c914cf59fa0c233c36bdf9--ikea-lack-shelves-lack-shelf.jpg http://homesforsaleinvictoria.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/small-wooden-wall-shelves.jpg https://img1.etsystatic.com/161/0/10532096/il_340x270.1226564361_f53d.jpg http://legambienteanzionettuno.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/cute-small-wood-wall-shelf-set-of-2-great-from-barnwood4u-pertaining-to-dimensions-1024-x-802.jpg http://doxoh.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/small-wall-shelf-home-decor-with-creative-diy-wall-shelves-furniture-decorations-photo-hanging-bookshelves.jpg
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tcian
13 years ago
No such thing as surround sound. This was a fraud pertetrated on the consumer by the electronics industry many years ago, with the blessing of the FCC. Two frauds actually. First, all audio is recorded in two channel stereo. To achive "surround sound" the turner digitaly strips a given frequency range and sends it to another speaker. Do this enough times and you get 5.1 or 7.1 or however many channels you might want within the audio range of human hearing, excepting of course the sub woofer. Second fraud is the way the FCC allows them to list the power output of a system. In surround sound, they can add the power to each speaker and list the total watts as the power of the system. Stereo has to list the power to a single side. Hence, the actual power output is the same as a 100 watt stereo as a 500 watt 5.1 system. Speakers...huge issue here. Only high end surround sound systems have modestly good speakers. You can get studio monitor quality floor standing speakers at a fraction of the cost of a high end surround system. Throw in a good receiver, and your modestly priced stereo system will outpoerform most high end surround sound systems every time. If you have the room for the floor standing speakers in your house.
masterbrewer_q_com
13 years ago
tcian says no such thing as surround sound. That's a load of horsedung. A Dolby Digital 5.1 recording will have 6 independent channels encoded in it. Same with DTS and many of the newer standards. The original "Dolby Surround" that was introduced in 1982 was processed stereo. Get out of the 80s.

Ceiling speakers and 'True' Surround Sound

Comments (4)

yosemitebill

montel (CA US 10b/Sunset 16)

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