Dave Donhoff - refinance questions...

18 years ago

In light of the recent "conforming jumbo" news, I'm not sure what our best options are going to be. Here's our situation:

We currently have a 5 year interest only ARM of $460,000, of which we are in our 3rd year. Our house was purchased for $580k, and we put down the rest. When we bought our house we could have qualified for a 30-year fixed, but wanted to have extra monthly income to fix up our house, and we knew that over the next few years we would be making more money (and we are -- about 25k more), so we had plans to refinance eventually once we were making more money and had stopped fixing things.

That time has just about come -- we're planning on refinancing within the next 6 months. Obviously, we're above the normal conforming limit of 417k.

What do you think is our best bet? Doing some sort of 80/10 loan situation? Or looking into this "conforming jumbo" thing? Something else? We're in SoCal, just as an FYI.

One other concern: my husband's company closed down and fired everyone over Christmas. He just started a new job a couple of weeks ago (did contract work in the interim). How will that affect us doing the refinancing? Should we wait a certain time period (6 months or so) while he's at his new job before starting the refinancing process? He makes the bulk of our household income.

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Comments (10)

dave_donhoff
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hi rivkadr,

What do you think is our best bet? Doing some sort of 80/10 loan situation? Or looking into this "conforming jumbo" thing? Something else? We're in SoCal, just as an FYI.

Ahhh SoCal, land of my youth ;~) Where do you shake & bake... er, um, live? I think I can smell a Tommy Burger with peppers in your posting... or is it In&Out! (This time of year I DEARLY miss living in Cali! Seattle is lush & verdant, but one can hardly stand getting so pale when your heart comes from the land of "the beautiful people!")

As to what I think is your best bet..... do you want my superficial mortgage answer, or my responsible financial planner answer?

The mortgage answer ignores everything except what we know about the mortgage markets, as applied to a flat loanamount figure.

The planner answer depends significantly on much more about your overall holistic financial profile, outcomes, temperaments, future plans, current realities, existing risk management (and/or lack thereof,) and other factors. A planner's response includes the big-picture positioning of the entire financial "chess board pieces" and the making sure that SECURITY comes FIRST, followed by CONTROl, and only thereafter RETURNS/SAVINGS.

The superficial mortgage answer is easily posted & digestible...
It is also irresponsible, like diagnosing your health via the internet.
(And I've yet to meet anyone online enough of a sport to spill their intimate financials online (even anonymously) for my public dissection, poking, prodding, testing & diagnosis. ;~)

One other concern: my husband's company closed down and fired everyone over Christmas. He just started a new job a couple of weeks ago (did contract work in the interim). How will that affect us doing the refinancing? Should we wait a certain time period (6 months or so) while he's at his new job before starting the refinancing process? He makes the bulk of our household income.

If his temp contract work, and his new job, are all in roughly the same line of work... no problem there. If he made a significant career change, then we'd need to weave some custom solutions.

I openly invite you to let me know if you prefer to go into deep personal details here on the GardenWeb (it would be like parading naked down the street, BUT disguised with only a mar de gras mask on so nobody knows exactly who you are.... not too unlike certain locals on Venice or in West Hollywierd,) or strictly confidentially offline.

Warmly,
Dave Donhoff
Strategic Equity & Leverage Planner
rivkadr
Original Author
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
LOL, we're in the Orange County area :) There are In & Outs around here, but I wouldn't eat there, unless they happen to have veggie burgers (which I doubt)...

I don't care about posting particulars. Maybe it will be useful to someone else, and hey, it's just basic money info, not my credit card number. If someone can someone do something evil and dastardly with the below info, then more power to them.

I can guess some of what you're going to ask:

- Our combined salaries equal $160k.
- As I said, our mortgage is $460k (originally $464k). Our current monthly mortgage bill is about $2815 a month (that includes our escrow account which sets aside our taxes, insurance, etc). We actually pay exactly $3000 a month, so we've been paying a tiny bit of the principle (we haven't been paying more, since we've been paying off a home equity loan for the past several months). Our rate is 5.875%.
- Our regular debts include student loans, which run us about $400 a month (my master's degree was expensive!), and one current car loan for about $300 which has a couple of years left on it. I drive a beater, which I hope to get another 2-3 years out of.
- Over the past year we'd come to the conclusion that we were spending too much money on stuff that we didn't need, and have severely curtailed our spending habits (largely to pay off the aforementioned home equity loan, which will be done next month). We've discovered that we actually enjoy scrimping and saving, and intend to build a large savings cushion over the next few years.
- As far as extra income, after bills, etc. I'd say that we safely have somewhere in the realm of $2000 - $2500 extra every month. Maybe a little more -- we increased our yearly income recently by about $10k, which we haven't taken into account in our budget yet.
- We have no children, nor any plans to have any. Most of our large remodeling projects on the house are done, other than one that we hope to do before we refinance, that shouldn't cost more than $5k. I don't expect us to have any other major life changes coming up soon, although my husband is thinking about getting his master's degree in the next year or two.

What I need to figure out is an approximation of how much our mortgage is going to go up every month (and the best way to keep that to a minimum while still getting a "regular" non-ARM loan), and still allow us the capability to set aside a decent amount into savings every month, and maybe a couple hundred for spending money.
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Kec & Quirk, Lisonwal mentioned "$7,500 in closing costs"... but you need be aware of several things; Prepaid items (escrowed deposits for property taxes, and hazard insurance) add to the "cash required to close" but are not actual costs. The deposits they are replacing from the previous lender's servicing department are refunded generally within 3-6 weeks. NONETHELESS... many non-financial people look at their "bottom line" of their GFE and think "oh my God, that's "closing costs" ". NEXT; Lisonwal hasn't told what the buydown costs are for the interest rate they have locked. At a 5% coupon, depending on their loan-to-value, the loan size itself, their credit, and other factors, they may have a fairly sizable buydown included in their "closing costs." This is definitely not particularly a BAD thing, as it may have a breakeven point in their interest savings at a fairly short period. AGAIN; Taking a 30 FRM at "no points" or even "no costs" (when such a thing was actually available) is the MOST expensive money you can borrow, and hardly conservative in most cases. LASTLY; In the current mortgage meltdown environment, the back-end bond buyers are refusing to buy loans at enough of a mark-up for the lending banks to advance ALL the cash costs of the transaction itself. The bond buyers are offering a maximum of about 1.5% of a closed loan, while the actual costs run about 3-5%, with a cash minimum around $3,500+. Because of this the "no cost loans" of the past are... in the past. Folks who have sufficient equity to have their closing costs financed are still able to do so... but there are no "free" mortgages (beside the obvious TANSTAAFL reality.) Besides... lender-paid loans only made sense when rates still had the potential to drop lower... so taking the inflated higner interest rates that were offered in order to have the bank pay all the cash costs was something people would do on a speculative basis. No longer is it financially intelligent nor realistic to take a higher interest rate (simply in order to get it for "free") with the argument that you are saving yourself the ability to once again refinance when rates drop in the future. Cheers, Dave Donhoff Leverage Planner
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Hi MNK, Let's start from the ending, where we both completely and thoroughly harmonize! Any financial planner will do what is best for the client based on their risk tolerance, time horizon and goals. All options are provided and the planner makes their recommendations. The client decides what is best for them. These are my personal views. AND I along with you! NOW let's break down the game film... most specifically addressing fallacies that are again repeated as "facts." (I'll leave the acknowledged "personal opinions" alone... as everyone has a right to their own opinion.) Leverage is utilized by people who have the means to pay off the debt at any time. While this is absolutely true... leverage is ALSO responsibly used, every day, by people prior to accumulating funds to replace the leverage entirely. Buying a home is a responsible use of leverage. Financing education can be a responsible use of leverage. Insuring income during family raising years can be a responsible use of leverage. ... and many other examples are easy to arrive at. "ALL" debt is not equal, nor is all debt bad nor evil. It may make sense for someone with $300k in cash to finance 80-100% for real estate in order to possibly generate a return greater than the mortgage. You advocate leveraging a monthly payment which is not the same. Microsofts acquisition of Yahoo is a good example. They can pay cash for Yahoo but believe they can generate better returns by using leverage. Most people on this forum do not have such means. Still you are taking RISKS. This paragraph makes no sense to me. If you can re-state it I can try to address it. "Keeping a mortgage (with a non-compounding interest rate) and instead maximizing alternative growth accounts (with compounding growth rates, and especially preferring tax-sheltered vehicles) is not only safer and more conservative, but reaches a secure retirement sooner as well." Again no consideration for RISK and VOLITALITY. Au contraire! Risk and volatility would absolutely be primary considerations in the selections and balancing of growth accounts. I am sorry that is ridiculous. To suggest that 100% financed real estate is the way to go is wrong. You may be sorry (and apology accepted,) yet you are spinning off on a tangent. I made no generic recommendation about 100% financing. I merely defined "a perfect hedge" against inflation. Look at those speculators and homeowners who used 100% financing and are now looking at foreclosure. They did not put any savings anyway and what is the benefit of leverage if you cannot pay it off. You're spinning off into anecdotal hinterlands again. While anyone can pull out references to failures (either specific or implied,) anyone can equally point to responsible successes. Further, falling back to an argument that "most people are too irresponsible/dumb/uneducated (add your own insult here) and therefore do not deserve to be made aware of more responsible choices" is a silly position to take at any community message board where people come PRECISELY to learn and grow. "Every dollar you entrap INTO your real estate equity (by surrendering your mortgage leverage) is a dollar you have double-exposed to the deteriorations of inflation." Yet you state that inflation benefits your real estate holding. Exactly! When you've entrapped your cash into your real estate, your cash neither grows nor provides protection. The underlying real estate itself responds to the inflationary pressures regardless of whether it houses your cash or not, so entrapping the cash is merely added risk of illiquidity and wasted growth opportunity. The RISK of losing your home to inability to pay a mortgage is gone. The RISK of losing your home is *ONLY* gone when you maintain enough liquid cash to replace it. There is no other way to completely cover that risk, period. I grant you that with inflation your fixed payment is decreased but so what, it is still a debt payment. Indeed, so what? It is a payment on defensive, conservative leverage that is a reducing burden at the rate of inflation. Even if you are investing in the stock market your real rate of return is decreased by taxes, commissions, mutual funds fees, etc. Obviously the stock market is a generally high-risk/high-opportunity selection for funds, and should be used only to the degree appropriate to a client's financial life stage (and not a dollar less, either.) You are not going to lose your home if your mortgage is gone. HAH... yeah, right. Tell it to Trent Lott (an easily Google-able example) and the thousands like him who lost their paid-in-full homes overnight in Katrina... had to live in miserable subsistence conditions with life completely interrupted and no liquid cash to fall back on... and had to endure long periods of protracted legal battles among the insurance companies (if they were fortunate enough to be sufficiently covered) to finally receive their claim funds. Ask them if they are happy they paid their mortgages off in full... or whether they'd left them fully leveraged for the insurance companies and the mortgage banks to fight over, instead of the individual's getting stuck int he middle. And lest ye accuse *ME* of anecdotal support... that list goes on & on & on... year after year after year... state by state by state... family after family after family. The risk is significantly reduced without a mortgage. Having no mortgage, all else equal, is riskier than having a full mortgage with an equivalent cash position. I could not find anything re: "SLAP" Me neither... darn the search funciton! The risks to equity are S.L.A.P. S.oftening or dropping market resale values, L.itigation exposures, A.cts of God (natural disasters beyond insurability of liquidity,) P.ersonal Disaster (family and health issues that create burdens beyond home management.) BACK TO AGREEMENT: Every family has their own profile, yet the principals of responsibly balanced finance will always apply. A professional advisor will recommend structural plans to fit the family's profile (hopefully setting aside the professional's own biases in favor of the client's best interests,) and ultimately the client must decide which path they choose to take... as it is ultimately their own life and future they will be creating. Cheers, Dave Donhoff Leverage Planner
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Hi Eosinophil, FIRST of we need to back away from the minutiea... up, up, up to get some bigger picture perspective, like an architect starting with very simple pencil sketches on a blank piece of paper... so that we can THEN come back down to the nitty-gritty and micro-fit the situation to your specifics. What is more important to you; Eliminating your outstanding leverage balances on an accelerating basis, or stopping the monthly bleeding? (These are at counter-points for you currently.) Are you more concerned about the balances on one property versus the other... or about your overall family position on balance? How much accrued liquid cash reserves do you have socked away? How much is your gross family monthly revenue? How much is your current gross (including minimum payments for all debt and homes) family cost of living? You are paying to rent the money you are using for retaining the ownership of the old home (the interest costs.) This interest is a "sunk cost" each month you pay it, if you have no tenants paying you for its useage. Is your continuing ownership giving you *any* appreciation currently? (Keeping in mind that market appreciation is a VERY tentative guess, at best, in the current environment... and if it is negative, you need to honestly figure it that way as well.) IF so, how much is the appreciation when calculated into monthly dollars? How much of your sunk interest costs are being ofset by your potential monthly appreciation gained? Whatever your sunk costs of interest, minus your dollars from appreciation (or plus the dollar costs, if depreciating currently,) is what you can call your "monthly burn." This is the consumption of your net worth you are incurring to continue carrying this property. NOW... this home CAN be sold (gotten under contract with a 30 day escrow period, or less) within a 2-6 week marketing time, AT SOME LEVEL OF PRICE, AND ADVERTISED EXPOSURE. This "price level" is what we call the "quick-sale price value." If your agent were to (honestly) determine the realistic quick-sale price level in that local market... it would likely be lower (perhaps much lower) than where you are holding out right now... and the agent would likely need to ramp up some significant marketing costs... which they might only be comfortable doing with some funding (or guarantees) from you. All of this, naturally, is going to be a revenue burden off of what you were previously hoping to sell your home for. NONETHELESS... this is a numeric exercise that is CRITICAL to do... RIGHT NOW... because it will give you the numerical difference between where you are right now in realistic net worth, were you to do this immediately..... VERSUS how much you are "burning through" on your monthly burn rate if you simply close your eyes, cover your ears, pray really really hard, and just keep waiting it out. KNOWLEDGE AND AWARENESS IS POWER... and you can't make an objective financial decision unless/until you have the actual facts in front of your face to review and think about. ========================================================= OK... soapbox aside..... *IF* you decide that you have reason to believe that simply waiting longer will actually be worth your while in a higher sale price... then there *is* investment property financing available in the range of 3.5% to 4.5% APR, on an interest-only basis, up to 70-75% LTV, strictly on a fully documented (income, employment, assets) basis... which could very significantly reduce your monthly burn overall. Its something I have at my firm... but not to be 'spammy' there may be other brokers (perhaps your regular loan broker) who have it as well. Its not a retail program, so you'd definitely need to connect with your broker for it. ========================================================= ALL THINGS CONSIDERED... (And in truth, we haven't seen enough details to truly consider all things...) I would *PROBABLY* be leaning toward advising you to take a deep breath, swallow hard, plug your nose... and have your agent re-price the home to the local quick-sale price... and get it over with while we're in the summertime "moving & home-buying season." All the best! Dave Donhoff Leverage Planner
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I would advise you to purchase Title Ins. It protects you down the road if the closing attorney is sloppy and does not complete the necessary filing of documents. I say this because we had an issue which almost delayed our closing. We discovered the error 22 years later. We did not have Title Insurance, but did have a signed document from the attorney guaranteeing a 50 year clear title. That was a relief, getting the old paperwork filed was another story. We had to have proceeds held from the sale until the work was completed. My current attorney ended up filing the paperwork that was not done 22 years ago. The previous attorney did pay for the filing fee, but we paid the price for his error until it was cleared. You always need to protect yourself. As you can see things can surface unexpectedly years later.
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joyfulguy
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
The money which we loan to a bank, or borrow from them, e.g. owe them on a house, is "principal".

The systems by which the world works, or one governs one's life, is "principle".

o j
rivkadr
Original Author
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Darn. I spelled it correctly initially, looked at it, said to myself, "That can't be right! That's the guy who runs a school." and changed it to principle. What can I say? If you're not used to dealing with financials, it's not a word you use a lot.
dave_donhoff
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hi Rivkadr,

OK, great! This may take a good bit of back & forth, doing it this way.... which is apparently fine if you're in no particular rush anyway.

More questions;
Itemize your current liabilities, and for each;
Balance, interest rate, amortized term (or minm pymt determination method per their agreement.)

Itemize your appreciating assets, and for each;
Current market value, current growth rate, any access restriction periods.

Itemized monthly living cost budget.
Total current cash-type account balances.
Benefit values for each of your life insurance coverage (and cash values if you have that.)
Benefit values for each of your disability coverage.

What is your personal realistic exepected growth situation for your home over the next 10 years?
Expected average annual rate of growth, 10 years? Total growth in dollars?
What is your personal realistic expectation for income growth over the coming 10 years?
What is your personal realistic expectation for your securities investment growth over 10 years?
What is your personal realistic expectation of interest rates (charged and earned) over 10 years?

You currently say you have $2,000 - $2,500 'extra' each month.

Tell me, of the FIRST 'extra' $1,000....
how many dollars would you typically choose to send toward;

$____________ Add to Reserve Cash earning 0%, saving 0%

$____________ Deposit to a safe "No Touch for at least 10 years" tax-sheltered retirement account earning a compounding 5%

$____________ Permanently surrender (for at least 10 years) into your mortgage principal, saving a 5% after-tax savings rate of interest,

$____________ Invest in High-Opportunity/High-Risk fully-liquid taxable securities account

$____________ Spend to enjoy life

Of the SECOND $1,000;

$____________ Add to Reserve Cash earning 0%, saving 0%

$____________ Deposit to a safe "No Touch for at least 10 years" tax-sheltered retirement account earning a compounding 5%

$____________ Permanently surrender (for at least 10 years) into your mortgage principal, saving a 5% after-tax savings rate of interest,

$____________ Invest in High-Opportunity/High-Risk fully-liquid taxable securities account

$____________ Spend to enjoy life

Rank the following value in your mutual married order of priority (1 most important, 3 least important);

_______ Safety/Security

_______ Control

_______ Returns/Savings

What is your estimated current NET Worth?
(Total cash-sellable value of everything you currently OWN, minus everything you currently OWE.)

In general, how comfortable are you with risk to your net worth?

In general, do you objectively measure & quantify your risks?
If you do, how to you hedge against your risk exposures?

If you do not, WHY do you not?

How much of your liquid investment accounts are you comfortable exposing to risk of loss?
How much of your non-liquid retirement accounts are you comfortable exposing to risk of loss?
How much of your home equity are you comfortable exposing to risk of loss?

Enjoy!
Dave Donhoff
Strategic Equity & Leverage Planner
dave_donhoff
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hello.... Rivkadr... you still out there?
rivkadr
Original Author
17 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hi Dave,

Still here. But I fear some of your questions are a bit over my head; I'm not even sure how to answer some of them, to be honest.
dave_donhoff
17 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hi Rivkadr,
NO WORRIES.... since we're all anonymous here (or at least you are ;~) go ahead & run down from the top & ask what each question is actually asking.

I *FULLY EXPECT* a lot of folks (except Ol Joyful & Annie) are themselves wondering "why on Earth is Dave asking for ANY of that stuff, let alone ALL of that stuff... why not just "sell Rivkadr a mortgage" plain & simple."

As we gather up the details I've named, I'll explain the various ways they balance out & the effect they have on each other, and the importance of how they fit in together with your total family leverage (the combinations of your total debt instruments that allow you to own or control your assets & risk-coverage instruments.)

So.... as with music, you can really choose to start anywhere... but its usually easiest to start from the top.

Dave Donhoff
Strategic Equity & Leverage Planner
rivkadr
Original Author
17 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Okay, so some clarifying questions, then. I expect I will sound very stupid, but please recognize that I generally don't deal with money matters too much myself, so a lot of this is over my head.

1) Itemize your current liabilities, and for each; Liabilities, I assume you mean things like student loans, mortgages, etc? i.e. stuff we owe money on.

2) Itemize your appreciating assets, and for each; What would an appreciating asset be? Are these like stocks? We don't own anything like that anymore. We have my husband's 401k -- does that count?

3) What is your personal realistic exepected growth situation for your home over the next 10 years? Expected average annual rate of growth, 10 years? Total growth in dollars? I have no idea how I would estimate things like that :( I have no clue on most of your growth rate questions (except maybe our expected income -- I can hazard a guess on that).

4) What is your estimated current NET Worth? Can you have a negative net worth?

I just reran our budget; due to my husband's job changes and a raise on my part, we're actually making an extra $3500 a month. Does that change your little form up above at all?
dave_donhoff
17 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hi rivkadr,

Okay, so some clarifying questions, then. I expect I will sound very stupid, but please recognize that I generally don't deal with money matters too much myself, so a lot of this is over my head.

PUHLEAZE!!!! You deserve (and GET) my sincere respect for so MANY reasons!!!!
A) You're willing to OPEN your MIND to serious financial topics (and not just swallow the emotional poop passed down from those who've never tried to understand!)
B) You're willing to be completely OPEN WITH YOUR DETAILS (even if anonymously... you have no idea how many people are afraid of simply being real, even when nobody can know who they really are!!!)
C) You are SO GENEROUS to do so out in the open on a public message board, where your learnings can be silently read and absorbed by others who WISH they had your guts!!!!!!!!!

I cannot emphasize enough THE HONOR YOU DESERVE for taking this on, step by step, out in the open!!!

TRUST me when I say, there are MANY folks who feel much "dumber" about their questions... and hate the fact they haven't had the courage to step out like you are. Your COURAGE trumps all... and it is the ONLY way anyone gets "smart!"

OK, with your questions;

1) Itemize your current liabilities, and for each;
Liabilities, I assume you mean things like student loans, mortgages, etc? i.e. stuff we owe money on.

Exactly... make a laundry list for us here. If you have a recent credit report it will show much of what we are asking about... otherwise gather up your monthly bills.

Example;
$461,356 1st mortgage, (pull out your NOTE to check on the following,)
5 yr ARM in 3rd year, (amortized, or interest-only?)
Start date was July X, 2005
Initial Fixed rate is X%
Margin is 2.25 (or it is 2.75, or other?)
Index is 1 month LIBOR (or 6 mo LIBOR? 1 yr LIBOR? Treasury index?)

$45,356 Student Loan, consolidated from multiple loans,
Interest rate is X%, minimum payment required is $YYY (or a % factor, if you know,)

$12,486 Provident Visa card, 8.9% rate, 2% of principal minm payment
(By the way... the 2% of principal is the standard minimum payment for revolving credit.)

$8,594 Ford auto financing, 3.5% rate until 1/1/2010, then 8.9%. 8 year loan, minm req'd payment $x,xxx

You get the idea...

2) Itemize your appreciating assets, and for each;
What would an appreciating asset be? Are these like stocks? We don't own anything like that anymore. We have my husband's 401k -- does that count?

Appreciating assets are real estate, stocks, mutual funds, bonds, cash-value life policies, pensions, annuities, securities held INSIDE your 401(k), IRA and ROTH accounts, and similar.

Non-appreciating assets are your non-cash-value (term) insurance policies of all types, anticipated inheritances, business ownership, personal effects (tools, furs, jewelry, etc.)

3) What is your personal realistic exepected growth situation for your home over the next 10 years? Expected average annual rate of growth, 10 years? Total growth in dollars?
I have no idea how I would estimate things like that :( I have no clue on most of your growth rate questions (except maybe our expected income -- I can hazard a guess on that).

That is really *OK*!!!!!! When the answer is "I have no idea" it triggers some follow-on questions;
(And its perfectly acceptable to "cheat" by asking realtor friends, checking Zillow, or Googling your local negihborhood name along with the keywords of "appreciation rates in Irvine" (or wherever.)

Are you familiar with the past longterm trend of real estate in your area? If so, what was it?

Do you believe that the future longterm trend will be significantly different? If so, in what way?

4) What is your estimated current NET Worth?
Can you have a negative net worth?

Unfortunately, yes... in fact the MAJORITY of the general public has a negative net worth. That happens when the total cash value of everything you own (and could sell,) is less than the total repayment balance of all the debts that you owe.

I just reran our budget; due to my husband's job changes and a raise on my part, we're actually making an extra $3500 a month. Does that change your little form up above at all?

That doesn't change the questions (especially the "divvy up your 1st and 2nd extra $1,000,) but it does give you some extra growth power, which is ALWAYS a good thing when you know how to employ it most effectively.

ONCE AGAIN... I HONOR YOU FOR YOUR UP-FRONT COURAGE!!!!
(I suspect you are "giving" people a great deal in this exchange!!!)

Cheers,
Dave Donhoff
Strategic Equity & Leverage Planner

Dave Donhoff - refinance questions...

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