"Kim, thanks for the response. I wish the classes were defined better too and that I understood the underlying lineages more. the more crosses there are, the more it gets confusing. I like what Lux say, "it's all in the genes, but what genes." Hi Gean, you're welcome! I'm glad this thread is getting the depth of thought you're giving it. Thank you! You'll understand more of the underlying lineages more with practice and exposure. Studying the parentages on HMF will begin to show you patterns, lines which do or don't do what you seek. "The main reason I think about parentage is not so much that I'm esoterically interested in the problems of ARS classification. I'm not a rose breeder,but just an average joe. My interest is my garden and what will do well in it." Yes ma'am, totally valid. "For example, mildew is a problem in my garden because of the climate up here and maybe also my lack of airflow because of the trees around here. Some roses do perfectly fine, others are really susceptible. I've never dealt with mildew before, so it's something new for me." Yes, and ironically, sister seedlings from the same hip will often show tremendously varying degrees of resistance. "I look for hybrid musks because they are supposedly more tolerant of the lack of sun and general climate up here, but some seem to be susceptible to mildew, some not. Why is that? What is in the lineage of some that cause susceptibility to mildew but not others." Hybrid Musk is a misnomer. Originally, Aglaia was created by crossing multiflora with Reve d'Or. Reve d'Or was a seedling of Mme. Schultz, classed as a Tea Noisette, but of unknown parentage. Noisettes originated from musk X China, but there is no known link between these and Mme. Schultz, therefore with Reve d'Or, therefore with any of the established Hybrid Musks. That link is often repeated, but never proven, so it's rose legend. Everything about them as a class, look, behavior, scent, shade tolerance, botanical details...all go back to multiflora. Hybrids of multiflora can be intensely chlorotic due to pH; can mildew something terrible; tend to have great shade tolerance; greatly exhibit the shrub to climbing growth demonstrated by the HM class; traditionally have pastel to white coloring, which is completely logical for under story, woodland plants. Dark flowers don't reflect a lot of light so wouldn't attract pollinators and would die out in Nature. "Musks" aren't necessarily susceptible to mildew. Multifloras often are. Ballerina is a mildew martyr here. There is no "musk" in her expressed characteristics, but there is a TON of multiflora. Each seedling of the same parents is going to have as different an immune system as siblings from the same parents. Some combinations will produce greater resistance than others. "The worst mildew I ever had was the beautiful found rose by our own dear Ann Peck, Old Grey Cemetery noisette. The lineage isn't known but classed as a Noisette, I figure it has musk in it. - is musk highly susceptible to mildew? OG was bs impervious, I thought and tough as a boot - her words and my experience echoes it. Why is that? But highly mildewed in my yard." Mildew is a juvenility disease. It most often affects new foliage. Rust and black spot are geriatric diseases, affecting aging foliage. You can force any plant to develop the infections, even those with great resistance, through culture. You can force even the healthiest rose to mildew by stressing it for water severe enough. I stressed my R. Arkansana into terminal rust through water stress. I now over water it and it is squeaky clean. Many China roses mildew quite a bit. Look at Old Blush. I've not encountered much disease of any kind on roses which demonstrate strong musk influence. Secret Garden is totally immune to everything here. No fungal issues at all, even in a very stressed, shady, dry and windy spot in a client's garden in Santa Clarita. No diseases at all. Penelope mildews like crazy in the same garden. Erfurt and the Lens hybrid multifloras mildewed here in Encino. Secret Garden, stressed tremendously in a five gallon can with almost no soil left in it, and pulled from the roots it grew into the ground is spotless. Oddly, Pookah is disease free here in the same area as the others who have mildew. "I find that some hybrid musks have problems with mildew, some don't. Cornelia suffers but Exc vS its next door neighbor doesn't. Does Cornelia have more musk in it? Lineage isn't known. Is musk the issue? Is Exc VS really a hybrid musk? It is also classed as a polyantha by some. The vintage catalog says what binds the hybrid musks together is their shrubby nature. That's helpful for knowing how they grow but not so much as to their disease susceptibility." There is no known link between anything musk and either of those roses. There IS a high percentage of multiflora in Schubert. That and China roses. Schubert also contains a decent amount of Frau Karl Druschki, another rose which can mildew like crazy. It appears the combination of the two sets of genes provided the better pairings from Schubert's disease resistance. From Cornelia's behavior and performance, I'm comfortable offering that it contains a decent amount of multiflora, just as the other Hybrid Musks do. Sally Holmes is, by breeding, a Hybrid Musk. Ballerina, though of unknown origin, is considered one and Sally is Ballerina X Ivory Fashion. Polyanthas sprang from multiflora. Polyanthas led to several of the roses in question, Excellenze von Schubert for one. Ballerina is like a pinker, repeat flowering multiflora, almost what you'd expect from a pink, The Gift. Knowing what you do about Sally Holmes, is it that far a stretch to consider that, perhaps, the unknown seedling which created Penelope, Cornelia, and the rest might have been either Ballerina, Trier or something very similar? Here, Sally has much greater mildew resistance than Cornelia, Buff Beauty, Ballerina, Erfurt and many others. Talk about blurring of breeding! Robin Hood (a product of a hybrid multiflora crossed with multiflora and China roses) crossed with another poly led to the poly, Happy. Cl. Happy is like a dark red Hybrid Musk/repeat flowering rambler. Robin Hood when crossed with a Hybrid Tea resulted in Iceberg. Iceberg has characteristic mildew on the peduncles and can be forced to black spot if kept pruned too harshly. Notice some trends here? Getting the idea where your mildew originated? "If I could figure out where the predisposition to mildew comes from in its lineage it might help me avoid those types of hybrid musks. Prob the answer is there is no answer, I'm just trying to over simplify." No, I don't think you're trying to over simplify, but the answer is a bit more involved than we'd hope. The mildew came from multiflora and China roses. Some reshuffling of the genes through breeding has led to some which are less susceptible, but without personal experience, it's almost impossible to know which ones. Might you have tried moving the worst offenders around to see if a change of a few feet might help them remain cleaner? A suggestion...Nastrana is known to be a China rose X musk cross, therefore a real musk hybrid. Secret Garden is, by characteristics, a musk or musk hybrid. Have you tried either of those? Lavender Dream is out of Nastrana and Yesterday. Yesterday has Ballerina in it, but has been very healthy in places Ballerina isn't. Narrow Water is a sport of Nastrana. Trying some of these which are either known or highly suspected of being descended from actual musk roses might help answer your questions about where the mildew came from and what might be used to avoid it. Darlow's Enigma is highly multiflora by characteristics, but much more disease resistant than the traditional Hybrid Musks for me. Perhaps it might work for you? It's thought it might actually be Cascadia, which has multiflora, Brunonii and modern roses in it. I hope I've at least given you some more ideas to ponder. Thanks! Kim

Kitchen just means to me a room for cooking and food preparation. I was able to cook perfectly good food in some fairly ugly tiny apartment kitchens at the beginning of our marriage. The angst is over the expense and the multitude of choices. Part of me always questions the expense/number side of the renovation. Is X or Y really worth this? I had several splurges in my kitchen. They were things I would look at everyday. I knew cost averages on everything from my TKO research, and I had to weigh the practicality of the item with the visual and textural pleasure that such an item would give me. Then there are all the possible directions a kitchen can go stylistically. The angst comes over having to choose to go down one path and yet there are other paths that I haven't explored. So, I wonder what's down those paths that I missed out on. (I see glimpses of this when I see all of your beautiful finished kitchens on GW.) But once you start down a path, it's unidirectional. At each fork, the style choices become more restricted. Eventually, a finished product exists, but what if I had taken the other fork in road? That's where my angst arose. (Maybe I just need an infinite number of kitchens:) Meanwhile, I can say that it does my soul good to live and cook in my new spaces. I still caress my Antique Brown leathered granite daily. And it makes me smile. But I also know that all of this stuff is fleeting and could be gone tomorrow. Carpe Diem! Oh, and I got another small rooster for my hood! And cheers to Florantha!

Vee, how involved were your parents with your and your brothers' schoolwork? I assume because you went to boarding schools, they must have approved of the curricula. But if ever they didn't approve of something, when they got wind of it would they have said, "What is this you are spouting? Where did you learn that?" Say, suddenly some member of the faculty decided to enlighten the pupils about the differences between and relative merits of communism, totalitarianism, socialism, and fascism (perhaps unlikely but I'm using something extreme as illustration), would they have demanded an explanation from the teacher and/or the administration? I ask because my parents were pretty much hands-off in their attitude toward what we were taught in our State of Iowa-run public education. The state had a good reputation in education with high graduation/low drop-out rates and the number of students who went on to colleges and universities. In fact, the Iowa education standard was used as an exemplar and adopted by other states. For many years the 'Iowa Achievement Test' was given to students every year to see how much they have learned since they were last tested. Most normal kids loathed the achievement tests, but I adored them because to me it was like solving a very detailed puzzle. In other words, I wasn't normal; but I was a dandy test-taker. :-) Anyway, getting back to the point I'm trying to make: My parents left it to the state as to what we were taught in school, which they supplemented at home and in church, etc. But if we came home and started talking about weird things, they would say that sounded like a lot of baloney, yet they probably wouldn't have been bothered enough to confront the powers that be. They probably went years without having a thing to do with any of our instructors. Now jump forward two, three, and four decades: One of the biggest complaints in U.S. education is uninvolved parents. When my sons were in school, their teachers nearly drove me crazy by keeping me informed of everything -- and I mean everything -- the boys were learning and doing. They wanted me to attend weekly conferences, which I did because I didn't want to be accused of being uninvolved. But I didn't understand the fuss if the boys were behaving, doing their work, and learning something. Because of my laidback attitude, the teachers disapprovingly wrote me off eventually. Recently some parents in the U.S. have become very vocal about their dissatisfaction with their kids' schooling. What was your parents' reaction to your marks? Did they give you the third-degree if you didn't get what you should? Anyone else who wants to weigh in, please do!

Hi! I'm a flower farmer by trade. A general rule for when to purchase bulbs/tubers/etc. Is once the current crop is finishing up blooming/ producing, it's time to order new stock to the upcoming year! Sought after varieties sell out FAST! Check out Summer Dreams Dahlia farm, The Farm @ Oxford, Shady Grove gardens. Floret flowers also lists US farms selling tubers, as well, on one of her blog posts. Could also check the slowflowers directory of flower farmers. I believe there is a search function. Hope that helps! For landscape plantings, I would space them out more. But for production here on our tiny urban farm we grow everything with very tight spacing. My dahlia rows are 4' wide by 60' long. Tubers are planted on about 15" centers in an offset pattern. I have about 160 per row, give or take. Ours require 2 layers of horizontal netting for support, and T-posts every 8ft. We strategically fertilize, prune, and irrigate to ensure high production for such intensive plantings. I find dahlias to be extremely easy to grow, and think you should go for it! Bloomingbulb has some pretty good deals right now to try out some , but those will be imported stock so be aware of what that means. Happy growing!