There's a lot of superfluous and awkward space here. The entire right side of the house could be lopped off without suffering any lack to the function as a whole. Stack the stairs. Make the dining room the family room, and the hearth room the dining space. The kitchen can be smaller by about 25% with no loss of function and still leave you with two nice places to eat. Add that space to the pantry and study. The entry is large enough to carve a study out of from under the stairs and the rest of the excess space.

I agree: lots of wasted space, too much square footage as circulation space. The hearth room is huge, but will be almost impossible to furnish on the left right side of the room. The family room is at the wrong location in the house, in my opinion, it should be closer to the kitchen--and it's probably too big. Where does the TV go in the family room? Kitchen has yards of counterspace that will not be used because they are outside the work zones along the upper right. The area between the U-shaped stairs will be awkward and hard to keep clean. Powder room is too large and an awkward shape.

Sorry, I don't think this is a good fit if you want an efficient plan.

The entire right side of the house could be lopped off without suffering any lack to the function as a whole.
If I lop off the entire right side of the house, I'm left with essentially the same tiny house I currently have, which is not my goal.

I do want a more formal house, with distinct separation of spaces (no "open" plan, no "multi-function" rooms).

The hearth room space is supposed to be small and cozy, just room for a table and two chairs for laptop computing and reading (both DH and I do this in the evenings and on weekends, while working in the kitchen). But I want that computing space to be separate from the eating area/table so that I don't have to clear the table of computing stuff before we eat. No TV in or near kitchen. We like to retire to the TV after dinner, far away from the kitchen mess. Hence the location of the family/tv/great room.

I could probably make do with one formal dining area (and no breakfast area), but I don't want the kitchen open to it or to be seen from it.

Kitchen can shrink some definitely, but not much b/c I want an 8' island and minimum 54" wide isles. I could turn the kitchen 90 degrees, but that puts me in the prep zone staring at the interior of the house rather than out the back and side (where the views are).

How to stack the stairs? (and palimpset, that "area" between u-shaped stairs is not floor - it's open to below and above - the architect said he liked it better if the two railings were a bit separated like this). The stairs are, I think, the most difficult design-issue we've had. If we could get the stairs right, I think everything else would fall into place.

Here is a link that might be useful: Where at home do you compute?

This post was edited by jenswrens on Tue, Jan 1, 13 at 17:15

Can you get rid of the front set of stairs. If you stand in your entry, you walk 10 feet left or right and get a set of stairs. You also see both sets standing there. Most house I have been in with two sets of stairs have them such that they are at least 40-50 feet apart not 20 feet. You could use the space saved for a nice formal butler's pantry or bar. Your bathroom seems a little out of place. I think guest would get lost trying to find it. Maybe better off of the back half of you entry opposite your present set of stairs. Your entire entry space and bottom of stairs is a lot of wasted space that could be used for other uses.

There is floor at the bottom of the steps. I understand that it is "space" in between the railings as the stairs ascend, but at the bottom there is a floor, it does not extend into infinity. . That little slot is going to be annoying to keep clean so it should either be larger or not really exist.

Unless the upper flight of stairs floats from the landing to the second floor, but that is not how it appears to be drawn on the plan.

This post was edited by palimpsest on Sat, Dec 29, 12 at 21:46

It's a horribly inefficient use of space. It's like a pair of harem pants. Tight in spots and bloated and big in the wrong parts to ever look "right". The kitchen is way too big, or at least too big in the wrong places. The family room is too big and in the wrong place in relationship to the kitchen. Now, if you rename it the living room and designate it as the formal gathering spot and the dining room as a formal space, then you might have a better division between formal and family space. But, then you'd still have too much emphasis and room devoted to the least used spaces rather than the most used spaces.

If your garage space will be under the house and you'll always be entering that way, then that's where the mudroom needs to be. It doesn't need to be upstairs taking up space. The office can also go on the lower level unless you actually work from home. With laptops, you don't need an entire room devoted to computer space. Get rid of it entirely unless you want to add a bathroom to it and call it a guestroom.

There is a real lack of understanding of the human size in this space. Humans find any conversation area that gets beyond about 10x10 to be cold and impersonal, especially if the ceilings are tall. Conversation means raised voices when you try to arrange furniture in a large space that doesn't take that into account. A 20x20 greatroom is too large for comfortable conversation, and too awkwardly shaped to have two conversation areas. The most visually harmonious room proportions are never a square room. It is a 4/5 rectangle. 8x10. 12x15, or even 16x20. And the ceiling height should be proportionate as well.

With such challenging parameters, why isn't there an architect involved with this?

This is what the switchback stairs are supposed to look like:

With the final flight ending in the basement like this, so there's no annoying slot :-):

But that little detail is so minor when I'm worried about the plan as a whole.

If I eliminate one set of stairs, the goal must be to incorporate an entire set of stairs (switchback or other) as close to the kitchen as possible.

You may not be able to tell from the plan, mason, but from where I would exit the car in the garage (mid-kitchen) to the center of the switchback stair is ~45 feet. Walking 45 feet in one direction to go upstairs (carrying groceries, luggage, backpacks, or even nothing at all) and turn around and walk 40 feet back to the kitchen is NOT going to happen. I already do that in my poorly designed current home and it's a huge daily PITA, so I don't want to design that flaw into my new plan. So much of a PITA that DH has been known to prop a ladder at the kitchen end of the deck and climb it to get into the house just to avoid the long ridiculous back-and-forth walk to the stairs.

And unfortunately with this plan (as opposed to the courtyard approach plan), we won't be able to drive up to the front door.

Need some creative suggestions here... please?

If putting the garage under the house is creating such a huge PIA for you (and I agree that it is), then why the heck is it "non-negotiable". Sounds like it should be the absolute last thing you should be considering.

Green, we don't have a garage at all right now. And the parking area is 40 ft away from the only set of outside stairs, which are at the opposite end of the house from the kitchen. Having a garage, even a drive-under, will be a huge improvement for us. Drive-under fits well with the slope, is common in this area, and I'm not wasting my precious square footage and views to a dark black hole attached to the side of my house. The DEP is "giving" me ~ 450 sf of additional house on my encumbered property. A simple 2-car garage eats up all of that and more. I don't live in the garage; I live in the house. We initially wanted a detached garage (also extremely common here), but the DEP said no way - too much disturbance. So here we are.

There IS an architect involved in this. He seemed to lose interest after we rejected his first plan. It was beautiful. But it didn't function for the way we live. We've been through a couple of renditions with him, but he doesn't seem to understand what we want, or he doesn't care. I'm probably a terrible communicator. Perhaps we need a new architect.

Not sure why people keep saying that the "formal" areas of the house will not be used by us. We used our DR every day in our previous house, and I want a formal DR away from the kitchen. It will get used, weekly if not daily. And call it a Great Room, if you wish, or a Living Room. But it will be where the only TV in the house is (which I don't want near the kitchen - I dislike TV and TV noise), meaning we will use this room almost every evening. If it's that far away, I also probably won't make my daughter wear her headphones to listen to the TV and xbox, like I do now - yay for her! :-)

Yes, there is an official mudroom in the basement off the garage. But I also envisioned a "back hall" area off the kitchen to contain the pantries and powder room and stairs down and the odd crap that won't always make it down the stairs every day.

DH often works from home and has tons of computer crap and files and wires and phones etc that I'd rather not be all over my kitchen, living area, dining area or anywhere else. I'd love to stick his crap in the basement, but he also needs to be able to have colleagues over. So, yes, I do need an entire room devoted to not only computer stuff, but files, and electronics, and tons of books that need a place to live. That said, this room could potentially be scrapped to the basement if we need to gain square footage elsewhere.

The architect's family room was 24x24, so I thought that reducing it to 20x22 was better. The room will have only a 9' ceiling (no vaults). I agree it could be smaller, but I don't want to be tripping over furniture. I also don't want an overly large "cold" bare room. It will potentially need to also accommodate a grand piano I am inheriting (I already eliminated the small formal LR the architect kept giving us for the piano.) Do you think 20x16 will fit this?

So, how can I...

I agree with the others about the size and utilization of the spaces. I understand what you're trying to do, but, IMO, the reality is that you will end up living in the kitchen/hearth room area. DH and I came to that conclusion a long time ago, that it is very human to gravitate to those spaces that are most convenient. We live in our kitchen/family room area. The DR and library are used for formal entertainment, but not on a regular basis.

If you think trucking back and forth from the garage to the stairs on the right and back again is a lot, keep in mind that this is what you will be doing on a daily basis to get upstairs. If you want to carry food and drinks to the family room to snack or for when DD has friends over, that's 40' worth of potential spillage along the way. If DH uses an office/computer room and has people over to use it too, then why is the study so small, yet the foyer which is just pass through so huge? and despite its size, has a door conflict. If the hearth room is supposed to be small with 2 chairs and a table, why is there room for seating 7 besides? Wouldn't that be the place to dine on a daily basis rather than around the corner in the formal dining room? And the kitchen is huge which is also adding to all the steps that need to be taken just to get from here to there. I agree with others that stairs going up and down near the kitchen will be far more convenient and a real space saver, allowing you to either make the plan on the right more compact or to increase the size of the study for better use.

When designing our home, we spent a lot of time with "paper dollies" as DH called them laying out our furniture arrangement so we got a better idea of space utilization. That may help you decide if your family room can handle a potential piano, how to place the conversational cluster, TV location etc.

I'm just getting a strong sense that the space available isn't being devoted to the best utilization of how you live. I'm also getting a sense of an undercurrent that isn't being addressed...something about how small the space is you're in now and how you want all this expansive space. I'm getting a sense that this may be "be careful what you wish for". You want to be sure you understand exactly what you don't like and exactly what you need so you don't end up being unhappy by swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction.

We went through 7 years and 6 architects when designing our home, so if the one you have is already losing interest, perhaps s/he's not the right one for you. And a fresh set of eyes may take you where you need to go...

Well, I love it! The kitchen/hearth room is amazing and the formal spaces have a much better flow than in the earlier plans. I would love to have a large space like this, with all that light/views...and plenty of room for family gatherings :)

The DOWN stair is a head knocker. The enclosure must be 30 to 36 inches longer. I am always highly suspicious of any plan where the stairs don't work.

To me there seems to be too much retracing of paths through the entry space. You might try a door from the dining room to the hearth room and/or a door from the dining room to the living room. I believe it is good to be able to walk "around" in a house instead of back and forth through a central space especially if you have children or you like to entertain.

The only wasted space is space you can't access.

That's true about the second basement steps, the drop shown is only about 60" before it hits the pantry floor. There is also no room for a landing at the bottom. They would end up facing the basement wall with little or no space.

Thanks for the input! I expected everyone to dump on it - which is why we haven't submitted it yet, because there's something about it even I don't like. Something that doesn't "feel" right. I know what's obviously wrong (like the stairs and the big entry and the bumps), but I need actual suggestions about how to improve them. Palimpsest and Reno8, you gave me some good starting points - I'm going to try to move some things around in photoshop today and come back again.

I posted here to get a fresh set of eyes and to try to hash out the problems with you guys before we either go back to our architect or seek out a new one. I really don't want to have to go through 6 architects, Annie! I've already wasted years on this; I can't afford to waste many more.

I do have a lot of site limitations and restrictions, and trying to incorporate the light/views/parking/DEP with our interior functions is driving me nuts. I know I have to compromise somewhere, but I cannot figure out what makes the most sense to compromise on. (Help! Suggestions, please?) And no, the architect has been no help there. No hand-holding or guidance at all. His suggestion when we expressed our concerns about privacy was "hang curtains." Umm, no thanks. You're missing the point, dude.

Annie, once again, you hit the nail on the head with your uncanny ability to read between the lines. Yes, my current house is very small. One architect we interviewed, in fact, called it a shack. "You live in a shack," he said, laughing. And no, I don't want any multifunction rooms or any Susanka bs, because I already live like that, and I HATE it.

I have lived in big houses before, so I know about space, and it is delicious. I walk around my life with a tape measure, so I also know what feels comfortable to me. Any walkway smaller than 4' begins to feel cluttered and cramped. At the same time, I don't want to overbuild. I can't overbuild b/c of the DEP limitations. So I need to build smart. But if that means my only option is building an open-plan cottage with multifunction rooms and no hallways, then it's not worth it to me to spend the money. And there is intense psychological pressure to get it exactly right the first time, b/c the DEP only allows this once for the life of the property. So I'm also stagnating from a fear-of-failure complex.

That's why I'm seeking advice from all of you. I know you can help me find some answers.

Hearth room: I'm hearing that you want a small, cozy area for everyday meals and quiet evenings -- is it just you and your husband and one daughter? I have a room the size of your hearth room (well, one foot bigger), and it houses a table for four PLUS a sofa, loveseat and two recliners -- and a TV and fireplace. If I'm correct in thinking that you want "cozy", you need to go smaller here.

Also, that curved wall is going to cost BIG BUCKS. Are you okay with that?

I understand that when you start with a desire for a big island, you end up with a fairly large kitchen; however, you can reduce some space on the "far side" of the island. You're going to work on the side with the sink /window, and you have your pantry for good storage in that area. Given that your kitchen opens into the Hearth Room, all that space behind the island is rather wasted.

Also, you're looking at massive aisles between the island and the main cabinets, which will mean more steps. I'd cut them down to standard size. Bigger isn't always better: My current kitchen (a galley) is a little too wide, and although we can pass one another easily, I end up not using half the kitchen because it's just easier NOT to walk back and forth between the two sides.

I live in a very large house right now, and I hate it because it is so inefficiently designed. More space should never be the goal; rather, the goal should be THE RIGHT SPACE.

I don't think anyone's said it yet, but the dining room is entirely too far from the kitchen. I understand that you want it to be separate, but carrying things back and forth is going to be a chore. I'm wondering if -- and this is a HUGE switch -- you could keep the kitchen/hearth room combination kind of "as is", but move the dining room to sort of a "bump out" on the far left of the house. This would put the dining room directly adjacent to the kitchen, but it would also make it very private -- far from the TV, etc. You could have windows on three sides, which would be very attractive.

The entryway is as big as a room -- why?

Switchback stairs are lovely, but very expensive in terms of both labor and square footage. If this is going to be a splurge item, I'd move them to the entryway. This'd mean you'd enter the house near the kitchen (for groceries), and you'd see those expensive stairs on a more regular basis. Another option would be having them "open" to the family room; I'm picturing greenery and lights at Christmas.

How do you "stack" the staircases? You have two sets parallel to one another, on top of one another. Think of a public building with a stairwell -- perhaps a library or a courthouse. As you walk up one flight of stairs, there's another directly below you. This works on a smaller scale in houses as well as in large public buildings.

You say the garage MUST stay under the house. If so, I'd look into a dumbwaiter to bring the groceries upstairs.

You're looking for...

I think that it would improve the plan significantly for me if the family room were connected to the entry, at least visually. At the moment, when people enter your house, they'll see the dining room, the stairs (which go to private parts of the house) and the kitchen, but not the room you're most likely to bring guests. I think it's the tucked away entrance that makes me feel like the family room won't be used.

Also, as you have it now, I don't think the hearth room is cozy for 2 people. I know you want space, but space isn't cozy.

Perhaps something like this?

{{gwi:2104972}}

{{gwi:2104973}}

Maybe something like this this could work? It's not perfect but I think it improves on some of the things you want. I angled the entry to get a courtyard feel and added a door to the pantry so pulling up to the front porch and unloading groceries would be a breeze. The foyer and the front hall are roomy... but I like how they help define the spaces. I think overall it flows pretty well. To make the living room a more comfortable space I'd recommend making the privacy extension more of a bay to focus the view, and in the future it would provide a nice nook for the piano.

OMG! OMG! I am almost in tears. Brilliant, nicke360! Where have you been hiding?

I have much to say to everyone, but little time at this moment, but I just wanted to say thank you all! I have been making lists, measuring furniture, playing with photoshop all day... I need to sleep on all of it, and will be back in the morning fresh and with comments.

Thank you!

This post was edited by jenswrens on Mon, Dec 31, 12 at 1:31

Oh wow, nice plan, @nicke360! My little cut-and-paste iteration looks silly next to yours! :)

nicke360....a huge improvement...this plan makes so much more sense. Only thing is I do like the rounded corner in the old plan and would try to stick with it if I could.....

Really, really like nicke's plan for you! It would also be very easy to accomodate a dumbwaiter if you wanted to.
Also, very easy to have the stairs be "open" (like your pictures) and still have windows on their back wall, if those views are too important.

But, overall, that is an excellent solution for you elevations, function, etc!

(on suggestion though... If you plan to play that piano, it might not be fabulous to have it share with the TV in the same space. But is there a reason your daughter couldn't watch TV downstairs/in the basement? Or, for more formal gatherings, have the TV concealed (in the bookshelves, for example).

Nicke- Beautiful plan! It keeps all the features that Jenswrens has wanted and makes it even better! :)

Wow. Nicke360, you did a great job of pulling everything together in this plan. I like it a lot, but wonder about changing a few things. I really really like the covered porch and study and courtyard effect, the grocery door, and I love what you did with the dining room/hall area. Love the window seat in the stairs!

I agree with Annie - I would like to keep the turret in the breakfast room (knowing we may have to square it off if costs don't permit - but I've kinda fallen in love with the turret idea).

The only other two things I wonder about are:

• 1) The stairs (type and location). That is the south-facing view wall. Does it make sense to keep the stairs there or will they block light? I guess if there's a clerestory effect with windows on every landing maybe not, but I can't picture it well.

  Will sound travel up the stairs from the TV/Living room?

  There's really no privacy from the front entrance or hall window when walking down the stairs from the bedrooms (say in the morning in PJs) to the kitchen. Granted, we're not on the street, so it's less of a concern, but...

  I had thought I was married to the switchback stairs, but I'm not opposed to other stair designs if they might work better.

• 2) The angled foyer leading directly into the Living Room. I've always liked houses where the sightline from the front door goes directly through, uncluttered, to a window or other focal point (like a fireplace). I'm not sure about having the LR with the furniture etc to be the first main view from the entry.

  DH really likes the angle, but I'm having a hard time visualizing it. Does it continue to the second story? Anyone have any photos of an angled front entry? I can't seem to find any.

And finally, it was not my intention to offend or alienate anyone with all my previous posts, so I apologize if I did. I'm so thankful for everyone here who contributes. I've just been so frustrated with this whole process, spinning my wheels over and over. I know my tastes have always been a little off-kilter from the norm, and didn't mean to imply that other people's open plans or kitchens or whatever are "boring." What I was trying to say is that I don't want to spend all this money and end up with a plain-jane ordinary tract-type house. And Mrs. Pete, I obviously do have a hard time communicating my wishes, but you and Annie and nicke360 seemed to be able to hear and decipher my thoughts just fine! And I really appreciate that. Thank you.

Nicke360, can I email you? Or would you mind emailing me? My email is on MyPage.

I think I can assuage some of your fears...

The stairs would be fabulous with windows over the landing. Light draws you in and to see the light both above and below on the stair case would be fabulous. One of the loveliest windows I've seen was on a stair landing at Olana. What's so outstanding is that design is made out of cut paper sandwiched between panes of glass.....

Re privacy, the stair case is offset from the front door, so it's not a direct sight line...and you can address that with how much glass is in the front door and how obscured it is.

Re sight line to living room, as nice as it is to see straight through, it's even nicer to have the home unfold as you walk through it....the set up is very similar to mine, where from the foyer, you see the focal point of the fireplace which draws you in, and as you approach, then you see out the windows to the back. It really works well.

The angled entry might look something like this one....not sure of what exterior style you are thinking of though.

[Traditional Entry design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-entryway-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_741~s_2107) by Other Metro Design-build Blue Sky Building Company

KelHuk, Your updated plan is an improvement, but you still have 1/4 of that large living room as just empty space. And your foyer/hallway is a giant freeway of empty space running through the middle of the house. To some extent, this has to happen: When you want individual, four-wall rooms, you have to have hallways; however, I'm seeing a disproportionate amount of space devoted to walkways.

Nicke360, I do like this plan much better. It has a "flow" that the OP's plan is missing.

A question about the foyer /entrance: Do I understand correctly that you cannot drive up to the front door? At all? So why plan a large, grand foyer at all? Where will guests park?

If you are concerned about the angle and the stair privacy you could tweak Nicke360's plan by making the entrance where the double windows are for a view straight through the dining room (which tends to be a center table and chandelier) and square off the angle and reconfigure the hall and bath adjacent to the study.

Hi jenswren

Following your thread and wondered where you are at with all of this. Any updates or changes?

I really like the angled foyer and it appears to solve many of the issues you didn't like plus add some pazzaz to the exterior/courtyard feel.