Mightyanvil, Thank you for the contract breakdowns, I really appreciate that. That is definately part of what I was looking for, ways to create a win/win for us and our eventual builder. We have someone we are interested in using but have not talked specific contracts yet. There seems to be some perception that 1. I am not interested in quality and 2. that I don't realize the potential costs of quality and the unforseen. I appreciate that you are trying to warn me -thanks. I do understand these things and am trying to be prepared for them. What I was trying to get at is that somewhere out there there is a good contractor who will look at a project and take into account our site, our materials choices, our plan, etc. and come up with a bid or projected budget and a price to build our home based on all those things plus whatever he/she needs to make it work, do the job and continue to run a business successfully. Fine with that. There is also someone out there who will do all the same things and will take opportunities to increase the profit he/she takes from the job without offering any additional quality or service to the owners. My whole point is that from my point of view the second scenario is not okay with me and I was wondering what others had done and how they felt about their experiences. I would like to guard against scenario #2 if I possibly can. I know if I choose more expensive materials I will also have to increase the labor portion because it will take more skill from the tradesperson required to do the job. We do want a well built home and know that we will have to make choices and potentially sacrifices to get the things that matter most to us. When I was projecting our budget I took the averages from about 5 different sources of information and then depending on my ability to verify how that would apply to the home we are building I would either use the highest number if I didn't know or the amount that seemed to fit best with our project. There were some items that I was able to verify by actually going out and getting real numbers others by saying 'we are building a home next year it will be (description)if I am looking for 'x' and I budget 'y' is that reasonable? In the 'unknown' areas I spoke to a friend who owns his own concrete flatwork company, he has built several of his own homes. One of his sites was in our neighborhood and similar to ours, so in my basic labor and materials budget I took the amount he paid for excavation and tripled it for safety. I compared that to the prices others have paid in 'hairy situations' and my number was always the highest. We have already dug some on the property as we put in the septic and the excavator at that time did not feel we would have a problem *from what he could see and had experienced on our site* digging the hole for the house. I took the highest foundation cost and added 50%. We have city water, septic is in and we have electrical ready to go. This home will replace a manufactured home so our permits are inexpensive-about 1/3 of what it would be otherwise. When I got my budget together I looked at the overall total and added 10% to the entire thing. I did find that some numbers varied more than others and were harder to pin down. Other times the same number kept popping up so I felt I must be close and the 10% on top of that should cover it. I actually showed this budget and the plan to the builder we are considering and she gave me the feedback that most of my numbers are 'conservative'- in her terms which meant 'high' and we should be fine. Even if our budget goes over another 10% from that we are ok -including the fee amounts she quoted us for her services. At the time the plan we had been considering was built as a spec house nearby and we had gone through it several times. When I contacted the builder I explained that we really liked his house and were considering building that home ourselves. We shared with him information about our property and our time frame and we talked about the finishes in the house and the different things he was including. When he gave me the price for the home as built but on our site it was about 16% higher than our highest number and it did not include everything. Based on comments some have made, maybe it was still a 'fair' number but then again maybe not...in our county you can look up valuations on permits and the price he quoted for house only was $100k over that amount and it was $200k over what he told the county his cost was. In talking with my concrete contractor friend who has built his own homes he told me that builders usually underestimate their expenses for the county but that the county gets very close and they include approximately a 10% 'contractor markup' in their valuation. Enter builder #3, nice guy, only builds turnkey, fixed price. Not sure why he was interested in us as we were very up front that we did not think we would go that way. He was trying to convince us why we should I think. He was very helpful and actually wanted to see our site. He has just finished carving half a hillside out for a huge custom home which we toured so he knows about 'hairy excavation' and he looked at our site and said it was about average for our area and he didn't see a problem. Famous last words I know... anyway he ballparked a price about 10% less than the higher guy and about 9% above our 'cost plus' budget. This makes sense as he does need that 'coverage' in there, but...we had already added that to our numbers so...either we are still way off or...make of it all what you will. The highest number is out of our budget, the middle number is doable and the low number means new furniture, nice landscape etc. Guess which one I am planning on? Guess which one I am HOPING for?! :) So perhaps some will say this all bears no relevance to an actual project and maybe it doesn't. I am not trying to control every aspect, just educate myself and be prepard so that hopefully we make a good choice when we do finally sign that contract. I just wanted to know what everyone else was thinking about builders, pricing and contracts and how to best go about building a home for a 'fair' price. We are committed to building a house, it will be interesting to see what it will actually cost. Thanks all.

I learned a long time ago these people are not afraid of insulting you, so don't be afraid to stand your ground about your work. If it's all original work, put out a sign stating your work is copyrighted. If my wife made up a poem and displayed it and somebody was copying it, she would quietly just pick it up and hold it. And let the copier say something. One of the biggest problems in this business is "crafters" who can't BUY an original idea. So they troll shows looking for something to copy. And if you have something different, you must protect it. When I made house numbers I had frames designed by me. I had this sign in my booth prominently displayed. "I have a copyright on my frames and a pitbull of a lawyer!"

bumblebeez - That's funny that we both had snakes. I caught ours with a "grabber" too! Put it in a huge glass jar with some hole punched parchment paper, rubber bands around the top. Then my daughters boyfriend took it home to release at his house. We want to see if any others show up and didn't want to think it was the same snake. caramia - I was sure it was a rattle, because it was curled up, striking and that tail was going a mile a second! LOL However, my daughters boyfriend said he thought it was a corn snake. We have had rat snakes appear at our previous home, and they were huge black looking snakes. I am sending the photo to a friend that works at a wildlife preserve to identify the snake. lyban - We live in NE Tennessee. I think the stools were a great buy, and DD's boyfriend love them!

Hi (Canadian) Ladydi of B C, Looks like every time that members of that family come out ... they'll "see red". Neighbours, too, for that matter. ole joyful