Breezy,

RE: the gas meter. Yes, the meter size is important--and something the appliances stores never mention when selling these big, all-gas ranges.

I had a lot of gas utility people traipsing through my house when my line started leaking under the street. I got to hear a lot about meter size. What my gas company has you do is add up the btus of all the gas appliances in the house (grill, furnance, fireplace...whatever you got). I don't think they look at peak, they look at the most you could possibly be drawing at one time.

My gas guy said the same thing....he kept referring to my range as a furnace because it was equivalent to some furnaces he installs.....he pointed out that if I had the the range running with multiple burners and the oven and the furnace and the gas dryer and the gas water heater that I might have an issue with the gas pressure at the range which may affect performance. I get that....

The issue that we are having though with the burners and the oven aren't related to that......

Marion k.

Marion,

FWIW, I was answering Breezy's question from the previous thread. It had nothing to do with the current issues.

S.

Here is a link to the previous posts.

Can't believe we are on part 3 and Dave had a few before that! Gracious!

Here is a link that might be useful: Previous Posting

Thanks for the info sharon... and to all, I did not mean to imply that meter size had anything to do with this issue. Ironically, tonight the ignitors on our Wolf AG were popping constantly. One burner was set on simmer but the oven had been set to preheat and had started cranking up. The simmer dot was burning about 1/3 at best. I turned the burner to medium and got dancing flames but stopped the popping. I then turned on the vent hood and put a pot over the burner and the burner returned to its normal stage at the low end of medium. Once preheat was well under way, the burners behaved normally at all settings. As I have mentioned before, it seems that this is not an all to uncommon issue with AG ranges to some degree but very and effortlessly manageable. However, some how in their redesign, the issue was rendered unmanageable in the Wolf. And BTW, my meter here is the same at new house and MORE than adequate to handle what I have here.

In doing my research on meter size, I learned that my 2 furnaces combined put out 140K BTU's. My range puts out 200K alone so calling it a furnace is an understatement. The gas company is set to call me because my total BTU per hour, which would be peak usage, is 500K BTU and the meter company has indicated that the meter at my house can handle that but only if the line size and pressure to the house is at a specific level (which is why I called gas co). They also confirmed that 500K is just under the max for the meter I have under the best of conditions. Anyway, its a gas company issue since they have to size the meter to fit my needs which the contractor should have verified but that is an ENTIRELY separate discussion.

My son has the green light to return to school today. The plumber is coming Thursday to put in the bigger pipes.

Great news bob411!

That's great! Glad he's doing better!

Dave - what items were included in your refund check from Wolf? Did they cover delivery and install? We have yet to "see" our paperwork and I know the dealer has it all. It is like pulling teeth to know what we have to work with. Feeling very, very frustrated today!

Thanks!

So my second service call completed. The technician basically spent a bunch of time fiddling with the air/gas mix on each burner. This was after spending the last service call doing the taping/caulking thing.

When I arrived, the oven was set to 400 and had cycled past the preheat. The back right and left burners were on and seemed to be working fine.

We cycled through the various burners, turning them off and on.....I asked a bunch of questions regarding flame quality and did it make sense that the inner ring was not on sometimes when the burner was set to high - was told that when the burner was on high that it was basically stealing the oxygen from the inner ring.....but he then fiddled with the air/gas mix and it seemed to work better.

The technician was here for about 45 minutes.....after about 30 mins of having the oven going and testing the burners, we started to see the partial ignition problem on the middle burners (front and back).....he fiddled some more but was unable to get that to go away.....

To be clear.....if I left it alone with the partial ignition, eventually it would ignite the whole ring but with that inevitable whooosh that comes with a lot of gas sitting there waiting to burn off. Or if I blew on the burner or put a pot on the burner the ring would fully ignite...

But....that's just not right - my 9 year old Maytag would never do that....and more to the point, I can't have a babysitter or my kids (when they are old enough) operate the range if it behaves that way.

I asked the technician a couple of times if he thought that this was right/normal and he did agree that the ignition of those burners was not right. He also told me that he had done all of the adjustments to the range that he has in his tool kit and that he would have to make a report to Wolf on this issue.

My guess is that a lot of people have seen this and attribute it to that's just the way it works and have not made too much of a fuss. My view of it is that I spent a lot of money on this range to get a bunch of features that I wanted......I expect a 20 year old range to have quirks - not one that was delivered to my home a month ago.....

Will be calling the distributor tomorrow to see what the plan is.....

Will keep you posted.

Marion K.

plum, I've been refunded for everything but the initial install, and according to Wolf, that'll arrive within 2 weeks.

It certainly wasn't easy getting all that done, but clearly, it's worth it.

keitel

Out of curosity, how much was the install for the range only? I paid an installer from the appliance company who installed all my other appliances (got everything but Blue Star from them)to install it after work one day. I had all of the moving equipment, a pretty incredible dolly that moved the unit into place effortlessly, and it only took he and I to get it from garage into the house and in place. All told, it was 3 1/2 hours and that included him having to leave and go to Lowes to get a fitting he did not have (about an hour). I asked at the end how much I owed him, I thought $250 was a grand amount given he had only spent 2 1/2 hours on the actual install but he replied $400. WOW! My fault for not asking first and mind you $400 is not rediculous but it was, in my opinion, just short of rediculous.

breezy - we paid $188 for a previous range (not the Wolf in question but prior to that) to our "handyman" friend - (he is actually an HVAC guy, but does electric and other jobs too) - had to fiddle with the line a bit to get it just "so" and move an electrical outlet.

I am getting quotes now for the new install for the replacement range - of course, we now have to move the **** gas line again to fit the new range - but I will post info if I get it.

As a side, one company quoted is $60 to deliver the range, another $150. The distance from each is about the same. Huge range of pricing!

$400- ouch!

I paid $385 for the install, $100 of which was to repair a crimped gas line irresponsibly installed by my builder (new home). So, it was $285 for install only. That did shock me a bit when I got the bill but the guy did spend the whole morning checking the gas lines, installing, levelling, and thoroughly testing the range. The same guy then came back and spent another 2ish hours re-checking the gas meter, gas lines, and each individual burner because of the stupid oven/burner issue (which turned out to just be a flaw in the range) and didn't charge me for that. This is also the same guy who has given me the loaner until the Blue Star comes and he can install that. In short, it seemed like a lot of money at first, but given the time, care and effort he's put into these jobs vs. the way other "installers" walk into my house with their snowy boots on, dump the appliance on the floor and ask me to sign, I'd pay it again in a heartbeat and I'm happy to support a guy who understands what being a professional means. Sorry, a little rant snuck in there.

Just chatted with Maroline (the distributor). My file has been kicked up to the Director of the person I was chatting with. That individual will call tomorrow to discuss what next.

We'll see.

Marion K.

We got our big 1 1/4" gas line today, it was supposed to be yesterday, but some one's walk in freezer, full of meat took precedence, so they cancelled till today. IT WORKS!!! Can't believe it. I'm going to try it a couple of more times, but so far it is perfect.

That is great news. Hope it keeps up for you!

Help me recall...did you install larger than was noted for Wolf specs or did you have to replace to get up to the specs?

We have checked all of ours - except undergound- and were within the needs per the manual.

Enjoy - and happy cooking!

We are supposed to receive a replacement in a couple weeks (they will check it out for us before sending it). DH is considering swapping out the 1/2" flex line for 3/4". The tech didn't think it would make a difference, but didn't think it could hurt either. Any thoughts?

Well.....the distributor called yesterday and offered me a duel fuel at no cost. This was after only 2 service calls - the service guy said that he had done all that he could and there was nothing more.

Says he discussed with Wolf and they can't guarantee that the next range they give me won't have this issue as well. Supposedly an intermittent problem.

But....I already have an electric wall oven (a Wolf no less) and really want the AG. I also think that it would cost me $500 or more to pull in the circuit because I would need a new circuit, a breaker and possibly a new panel as I don't know that I have a spot on the current panel to hold another 220V circuit.

So he is now going to speak with the regional sales manager as to what to do.....either a new AG or a refund is where I guess they are going.

And just to make my day.....when I was showing the contractor what the issue was, I couldn't get the right front burner to light at all.....

Arggghhhhh.....

Will keep you posted as to what next.......this is all really so sad....

Marion K.

Marion,
Sad news indeed. We weren't offered the dual fuel, but I would have reasoned the same as you anyway as we really wanted gas and we were not set up for dual fuel. Also, they would not replace the range since they could not identify the problem and could not guarantee it would not happen again. So...you know the rest of where we are. I am really so very sorry that so many are experiencing the same issue with no real resolution.

We have our new range coming but need to move a gas line to accommodate a different location. Really not something you expect to keep doing multiple times!

Let us know how it goes - and good luck.

catmom - if you are within the stated specs for Wolf, I would not put your own money towards the "fix" of the range. I know you want it to work but if you have done everything right, and you have...they need to stand behind the product and make good with you. I hope it gets better soon!

If there is a chance it could only be beneficial (not harmful) even for the new range, I have no problem swapping out the line/flex pipe for a wider diameter one. I get the impression that they still feel it is our various set-up(s) and/or a variety of reasons why we are all experiencing similar (if not the same!) issues, and not a design flaw. Maybe over time they will realize it or find out that this is not so (of course, by then it will be too late for many here anyway, because a switch to a different brand will have been made).

I am trying to remain hopeful that the new range they send will work perfectly (as to our collective expections!) from beginning to end (of its lifetime and mine!). If there are still issues (again, praying there aren't!) I can only hope that that between us (and Wolf) we will be able to find a solution (one that is acceptable to DH and myself) so the range will function as it should so we can continue to have a Wolf AG range.

I'll keep you posted. Won't happen 'til a week from this one.

The last 57' of my gas pipe going to the stove was 1/2". According to Wolf you need a 3/4" gas pipe. No matter how long it is. I don't know what the limit of length you can get away with 3/4", but my stove is 96'from the meter, and that meant it needs to be 1 1/4". So if I put in 3/4" pipe Wolf would of been satisfied, but I didn't want to have to do this twice.

I have posted this b4 but probably long ago so here it is again b/c it is kind of funny.

My gas line through the attic and just above the Wolf range is 1 1/4 inch but starts out 2 inch or so (huge). The feed from the 1 1/4 inch line to the stove (about 12 feet) is 5/8 inch. The existing duct work for the hood was 7 inches (remodel project) and a minimum of 9 inches was spec'd by Wolf.

So I called Wolf and talked to their tech's. I explained the gas line and vent duct size issues. They seemed to be very concerned at the large size of the main gas line to the stove in the attic until I told them that it reduced to 5/8 (it may have been 1/2 even, I can't remember) anyway, they said don't worry its MORE than fine. Then I told them about the 7 inch vent duct for the hood and they said, OH, that will be a problem. Well, to tear out ceilings etc to increase the vent duct work would have been another cost (but so would increasing the gas line size too) and the vent run was only about 10 feet.

Now go to the installer. He said the under sized gas line (which was my main concern) could be a real issue but not to worry about the vent hood duct size; due to the short run, it will be fine.

In the end a 5 years later with no changes, both have performed wonderfully.

FWIW

Marion -

Wow - they offered to give you a dual fuel - that's a really good deal and you ought to consider it seriously. Yes you'll have to run extra electric but that shouldn't be too big a deal. The Wolf dual fuel gets very good reviews and doesn't seem to suffer from the problems you guys have been having with the all gas.

I know that it is a good deal if I wanted duel fuel - when I was searching for appliances I looked for AG - never was the person that wanted DF but got AG because of the price - I have a 9 year old Maytag AG convection that I really liked....I really wanted the AG to complement the electric Wolf wall oven - that I have (wasn't married to the idea of an all Wolf kitchen - long story behind that - it just worked out that way).....

I thought that the duel fuel was also a sealed burner unit - but I admit that I haven't looked at this at all.

We'll have to see what they come back with on Monday. I might still consider it but right now, what I want is a working AG range.

Marion K.

So we chatted with the distributor....

Apparently, he has chatted with the manufacturing/engineering arm at Wolf and they say they are working on something to address the issues that we are having....but, it would appear to be an intermittent problem because not everyone is complaining (and apparently the distributor has a 2007 in his home and has no issues). Now having said that, he also told me that he has some other customers that are having the same issue as me in both natural gas and LP.

So my choices are: Wait a few weeks to see if the engineering guys can figure out the issue and either get a retrofit kit or a 2008 with the fix in, get the duel fuel that they originally offered, get a replacement AG now and hope that it won't have the same issues or get a refund.

The guy was extremely decent and very frustrated by the situation because he recognizes that he could lose a customer and then any of the recommendations that might be made by me.....

But back to the options - the first one is a non-starter - if they don't know what the root cause of this problem is yet who knows how long it will take them to figure out. And to tell you the truth, for the amount that I paid for this machine, I'm not very enamoured of the thought that it might be held together by chewing gum and baling wire....the second option is not really for me because I don't want sealed burners or duel fuel, the third option to replace with another Wolf AG doesn't really appeal because I don't have confidence in the product right now....best case would be that it is good but what if it degrades the way that most of yours seemed to .....

So it looks like I will get the refund and look for a new range.....

I hate this.....I thought that I had done all the homework earlier this year....now I'm back to Viking and Bluestar....

I think it will be Bluestar if I can convince myself that the service and support will be good going forward - the one thing that I can't fault the distributor for was the level of responsiveness that they provided me.....it's just so sad that it turned out this way....

If any of you have any good guidance on what to do next I would really appreciate it.....my family is about to decend on my house this weekend and not only is the reno not quite complete yet, the range isn't working correctly which I will have to manage around (to complicate things, my one sister just had her kitchen redone and she went Viking and we had the discussion on reliability of Wolf vs Viking LOL).

Marion K.

Marion...
oh no! So sorry. Isn't is the most frustrating thing?

Have you talked with the Blue Star distributor for your area? (I read your other post about the retailer) Aren't they the ones responsible for service in your area? Maybe give them a buzz for the service issues.

The Viking story really is too funny. I think most of us in this situation ruled out Viking because of "issues" and here we all are, stuck anyway!

I wish you all the best! Let us know how it goes.

Well...the Wolf left the house today. The replacement range was delivered and will be hooked up tomorrow. I am just glad to make some progress to move forward!

catmom & marion - any progress with your different situations?

Nothing new at the mometn. We're still waiting to hear back from the distributor and/or tech.

Am told that they will deliver the Bluestar Thursday. Have to confirm with the distributor tomorrow as I won't let the distributor for Wolf take the Wolf away until I know for sure that the Bluestar will be delivered ..... can't be without a range for Christmas.....but if all the stars and the moon align, it looks like Thursday will be the day....

Next issue to tackle - my Thermador fridge installation....ugh....

Marion K.

Plum, glad to hear the new range is on it's way. I have my fingers crossed for you. Hopefully this is the one!

Has anyone heard from Dave? I thought for sure we'd get a report by now.

catmom - hang in there!

Marion - let us know how Thursday goes. Hope it is all good by then and you are cooking for Christmas!

Sharon - Thanks! My husband was doing the "range dance" or something last night to make sure there were no jinxes on it! It was kind of funny really.

Last I heard from Dave he was cooking on the loaner - can't remember when his Blue was coming....

I am so happy for the the replacements and hope the new ones work perfectly!!!

I have been ecstatically cooking on my Blue Star since Thursday. I was holding out on reporting until I'd used it a bit more but so far, I am in love, which I do realize sounds weird when talking about an appliance.

I have no idea what anyone means when they talk about an inferior fit and finish. It looks amazing. Things are tight, knobs are good, burner assembly fits perfectly together, height is easily adjustable, and it has a really smooth rolling rack on the bottom of the oven which I didn't even know about. It also has (and this may be new) blue lights i.e. the oven temperature indicator light is blue as are the fan light and the "light on" light. Yes, it's minor, but it looks very cool.

I've adjusted all the burners down to the tiniest dots of flame on low. I had one burner that wasn't sparking after the second day so I just took the top apart and tightened up the ignitor wires with my hands. No problems since, and if there is again, I'm confident that I can deal with it, and if not, I'm confident in the service company lined up to take care of it. It really is very straightforward to work on.

I will concur with earlier statements that this thing is MUCH easier to keep clean than the Wolf. Unlike the Wolf, it can be successfully and easily spot-wiped! And taking it apart and washing it all takes no time at all.

Drawbacks: the range gets insanely hot when the oven's in use for a long time. I would describe it as dangerously hot. The oven door is not entirely square. It's not an issue when the range is cool but it doesn't shut perfectly smoothly when hot. I'll address this later when it all settles and declares itself more fully.

All in all, I feel great about it. The burners just make so much more sense and are a joy to use (although there is a rather steep learning curve with those 22's). The oven is huge, the preheat is quick, the convection fan noise is not an issue at all, it's perfectly calibrated, the burners work the same whether the oven's on or not, and I hope I continue to be this elated for a long time to come. AND, it cost $1000 less than the Wolf.

Blue lights, tight knobs and a rolling rack to boot!
I know the drip tray trim is adjustable up and down somewhat. I noticed it on my own range once. Have you turned the burners on with the lights off at night yet? It's like staring into the fireplace.

That's great, Dave! I'm glad that you are thrilled with your new range. Must be a relief!

Sharon

Bluestar to be delivered Friday....hopefully I will get my gas hook-up Saturday.....cooking Saturday/Sunday.....oh so close to Christmas....

And trying to get the Wolf picked up Friday as well. Hopefully, I can make this saga end at the end of this week.

Will update after I am all hooked up....

Marion K.