My two cents...

I would suggest that a hidden lower heating element is the way to go. And if the top element is also hidden, so much the better. The hidden element(s) likely make for slightly more even radiant heating because of the additional heat diffusion of the glass, ceramic, or metal barrier between the element and the oven cavity. Plus, cleanup will be easier.

Regardless of the brand or price of the oven, I always worry about the self-cleaning feature being a source of problems. Complaints about many brands suggest that the use of the self-cleaning feature causes damage to the electronics, fans, relays, or even the heating elements themselves. As much as my spouse and I hate the drudgery of manually cleaning the oven, we intend to never use the self-cleaning feature of our 6 month old Dacor Millennia double wall oven.

Previously, we had a Bosch double wall oven worked fine for 9 years, although it was very slow to pre-heat. This was a top of the line convection oven that never failed...except when we ran the self-cleaning function. The seldom used lower oven's rear convection heating element melted when the convection fan failed due to the extreme heat of the self-cleaning mode. Replacing the element and fan was costly (about $450 if I recall correctly), so we stopped using the self-cleaning mode altogether. The hidden bottom element allowed us to place a layer of aluminum foil on the oven floor so spills were never a cleanup problem.

Thanks, Mrtimewise. All the ovens I'm looking at have a hidden bottom element. Bosch now boasts a faster preheat time (even has a 'rapid preheat' function) and has a shorter self-clean time (that can be set even shorter)...Maybe both to address the issues you had with the older oven. I think most ovens warn against putting anything on the bottom of the oven, due to the extra heat that will concentrate there, so I'd be a little afraid to try that, but will take some precautions. Thanks for taking the time to help out! I really appreciate the input.

Do the GE they have been in the business of electric ovens forever and you won't have to deal with some nightmare service company called A&E who service Electrolux or the incompetance of Bosch customer service.

Unless someone comes up with some amazing info I haven't yet considered, I've decided to cross Electrolux off the list, and am wavering between Bosch and Monogram. I like Monogram's racks, look (except for the stuff written right on the oven face around the knobs so I feel like it might eventually wear off), and the fact that I wouldn't have to deal with BSH for service. I like Bosch's price, cooking modes, and some other features.

I wasn't sure of Monogram's service, and what happens when/if GE sells, which is, of course, a risk with any company.

Rhome, I am so shallow. I like the Monogram ZET2 based solely on looks! I am sure that the experts here can chime in about the features and performance of each, but I just like the Monogram's clean-lined symmetry of the control panel, and the precision sharp cutout for the windows. I really like wall ovens with knobs, and both the Bosch and Monogram models you mentioned have knobs. I have not seen the Bosch personally, but the pic makes its control panel look kinda like the one on my $100 Sharp MW (sorry! just MHO). And it may just be an unflattering pic, and in real life the Bosch looks great. I have seen the Monogram, and played with the knobs and the rolling racks (I am SO TKO that I did that just for the entertainment, while I was with my friend who was shopping for a TV at Abt Electronics). I really like it, but that's just my taste, but you wanted feedback.

I know you compromised on the appearance of your 2nd F&P--I remember well your thread about it, and the reflective door that bothered you. So, I suggest you go to the store, see how these ovens look in real life, play with the knobs (Ha!), and see which one "feels" good to you. Also, bring with you your roasting pan or cookie sheets or something. The Bosch is claiming to have the largest cu. ft., but I find these claims are not always the case. But you may find that the capacity is significantly better, and that might be the decision-maker for you.

Guadalupe. I bought an Electrolux Icon Induction cooktop.
Luv it! Our Speed oven as well as our Convection ovens are Electrolux and they have been trouble free for over 3 years. They had a super deal for the Service Contract for the induction unit $79 for 5 years, or I would never have bought it--but--for that price how can you go wrong????.
NOOOOOOOOO, the contract is NOT wiht A&E , it is with GE
Moral of story: Don't turn down an Electrolux cause ya think it hasta be serviced by A&E, not so, at least in S Calif. I bought all my appliances at Pacific Sales.

Gary

I spoke too soon. I suspect most of you have seen the Lady's post that unable to get her Miele Dishwasher fixed?
(Down about 2 months now).
She has a Service contract on that Miele---now we would of course assume that would be an A & E service contract?
WRONG!!!!!! She has a contract with GE, yep GE!!
OH OH, I better hope that Electrolux Induction unit is as reliable as the rest of my Electrolux stuff, or I could end up using the DCS sual burner cooktop out on the Patio.

RATSSSS

Gary

I've had the Electrolux Icon double ovens for 2 years and they have performed extremely well. I disagree, however, with one of the above posters in that while the concealed bottom elements look nice, it does not make for easier cleaning and takes longer to preheat. My prior oven without the concealed element allowed for placment of foil at the bottom handling spills with ease. With concealed elements, you may not use foil as it will burn onto the bottom of the oven. When food drips, it immediately burns onto the oven bottom and requires much work to remove. I'd go back to the unconcealed elements in a minute. Just my two cents.

Oh, yay, more feedback! For awhile I thought I was on my own! :-)

I did go to look at ovens in person yesterday. That is when I eliminated Electrolux. It wasn't because of service, because I already have an ICON hood vent, and 2 ICON all-fridges, and an all-freezer...It was because the racks were shallower than the Monogram and the Bosch, and ...Shoot, there was something else I can't remember right now. Maybe just the reports of faulty porcelain, which is a problem I'm completely tired of having.

AKChicago, did you notice the lettering applied right to the control panel area of the Monogram, right around the knobs? It didn't seem tacky at all? Just curious, because that was something I was afraid might look like heck someday. (Like our measuring cups and spoons that no longer say what measurement they are.)

The knobs were OK, but didn't give me overwhelming confidence for accuracy...I think I'm missing just a bit of digital evidence that the oven is doing what I'm telling it to. I'm used to knobs in addition to a digital read-out, not just blindly trusting that the oven is understanding that I've turned it to the dot that says 350...Does that make any sense? Oh, duh... I just realized the oven wasn't plugged in, so it had some digital stuff that wasn't showing. (Hit self in the forehead) I need to find one that's operational.

The temp adjusts only by 25 degree increments and the oven offers fewer convection modes than I currently use. I'm not really sure those are legitimate issues, though, since maybe in real-life use it would make no difference. My former oven only had Bake and Broil, after all...

The Bosch I'm looking at doesn't have any knobs. I prefer knobs, and for appearance, like you said, is even more of a compromise of my preferred look, since it does have a lot of black glass...But not as much as my current F&P, so maybe that's tempered me a bit on the black glass and appearance issue...an almost happy medium? :-)

Rhome - I did not notice the lettering on the GE Monogram, but you have a valid point. My sister's front loader washer had the lettering come off around its dial, and it has been frustrating for her to get that repaired. Also, I remember the very long Viking thread on this Forum in which a lot of Viking owners complained about the lettering on their Viking appliances (various) wearing off, and how there isn't much to be done about it. Having said that, I don't recall anyone making that complaint about the GE Monogram, but you are trying to winnow down the choices, so maybe that is a factor to consider.

Maybe if the digital readout gives enough info, the stuff written on the face won't be as important...I will definitely have to see one that has power hooked up. I think my oven will probably be taken away next week sometime, so I need to get running to appliance stores. My kids will love that...

I looked at the same ovens this weekend. They all seemed great to me and I had such a hard time deciding, but I finally ordered the Monogram today. I figured they will all bake/roast etc. pretty much the same, but I think the Monogram will look great in my kitchen! The only concern I had was that the monogram is a bit smaller than the Bosch, but 99.9% of the time that will not be a problem for me. Have fun shopping, always fun with the kids!

I really like my Electrolux and it was serviced by the company that I bought it from. It is very flexible in that you can set it at any temperature and use convection or not. I use it to bake but also to dry art work. I can have a breezy summer day any day of the year my oven. I like the roll out rack and it is the easiest for me to take out and replace but I like the regular rack too because I change them around alot. Because I had the oven replaced, I have extra racks. It preheats to 350 in 5 -7 minutes.

Wekick brings up a good point about oven racks...

In our Dacor Millennia MOV230, relocating the oven racks is the one sore spot for us. My spouse is "just OK" with the standard racks, but she finds the full extension "glide rack" next to impossible to remove and re-install. It takes me a bit of time to wiggle things into the proper orientation, too, as the glide rack is re-located. Perhaps she'll eventually get the knack of it, but for now I'm the "rack adjuster" in the family.

I should also mention that the racks (in particular, the glide rack) never seem to lay square in the tracks. This is mostly due to the rear cover for the convection fan/element at the back of the oven. That cover is located slightly to one side, not centered in the oven. This means one side of the back of the oven has more space between the edge of the cover and the side wall of the oven. When a rack is pushed all the way back, the extra vertical space along one side allows the rack to slide rearward a bit more. As a result, the rack will sit askew in its track. Of course, this slight twist is only a visual thing. But I do find myself constantly pulling one side of the rack forward slightly to eliminate the odd, non-symmetrical appearance of the rack position. Dacor could have made the rear fan/element cover slightly wider, thereby completely eliminating the problem.

I may try adding a heat resistant "space filler" of some sort next to the fan cover, thus preventing the rack from moving back the extra 1/2" on that one side.

Just thought I'd mention this irritating "feature" on the Dacor.

Thanks for the further input...One thing I noticed about the Monogram is, although it has a Proof mode, it doesn't go below 200. Not sure on Bosch.

Love the idea of creating your own breezy summer day to dry artwork! If I tell the kids, I'll never have room to bake...
;-)

Rhome - just wondering whether you've decided on a wall oven. I noticed that Cotehele just posted on the Kitchens Forum with pics of her bakery (so nice!). She has the Monogram wall ovens, and it looks like she is really putting them to use, so she may be a good person to ask about them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cotehele's Thread about Her Bakery

Thanks, Akchicago. I just finished posting to Cotehele's thread before I checked in here!

I have been discouraged by 2 different stores from getting a Bosch, because of my supposedly 'rural' location. That brings the Monogram to the top, I guess. One salesman also showed us the newest Viking. Never thought I'd even look at a Viking anything, but it's an impressive unit. Should be for the price!

Either are a LOT of money when I hadn't planned on spending any...for an oven I thought I already bought. So disappointing, to say the least. My original F&P was something like a display model, so a 'good buy' (ha)...What I will get back from them won't go far toward a full-price oven. I'm tempted to get a GE thermal oven and forget it! I had a GE Profile range for years without convection, and did fine. When did I become such an oven snob? ;-)

Hi, AKChicago...Ovens not in yet. This exact oven model was actually my almost-tied-for-first choice back when we built the house, and I still wondered every once in awhile if I shouldn't have chosen it. It was less expensive then, so probably would have won the battle if I hadn't found the F&P for such a good price. That sure ended up to be too bad! But now I have what I'd wanted all along...So all's well that ends well? (If it weren't for still having to come up with the extra $1900!)

F&P let me know the 'check is in the mail' last week, but I checked with the service company today and they'd received all the paperwork except the check. She was guessing it'd arrive Friday. When it does, they'll call to schedule the removal. It won't be until that happens that DH can make adjustments to the cabinet to fit the larger oven. So maybe by the 15th I will be able to try them out and post photos!

I thought I would update this thread with a recent experience that we had with our Double 30" Electrolux ovens. Installed this August, they seemed fine, until we released the time was running fast on the clock. No big deal. Then we noticed things were taking much longer to cook in the top oven than the bottom, as well as taking much longer to get to temperature. After buying some after market thermometers, we saw the top oven was running 150 degrees below what it said it was running at, unless convection was picked. Bottom oven seemed to run closer to desired temp, but still off a bit.

Called Electrolux and had a service company take a look at it. We were not happy about having these problems in an expensive (and new) oven, and requested a replacement. Electrolux said they would get back to us. 1 week later we found out the swap was approved.

New oven was delivered, and the temps are running dead on perfect. Every product can have a one off lemon, it's how they deal with it. I am VERY pleased with the service we received, and I would happily recommend Electrolux to anyone who is interested.

FYI, regarding the blue flaking, we did have it on both the original oven and the replacement. After the oven was first installed and ran, there were some flakes on the bottom of the oven. After wiping them out the first time, we have never seen them occur again. I attribute it to the first time the oven is moved and not a big deal as it never happened a second time.

Glad for you that you had such a good experience. It's always nice to hear the positive stories.

Regarding flaking, it wasn't any initial little pieces that could be cleaned out and not dealt with again that worried me, it was the failure of the finish like I had in the F&P ovens after a self-clean that I didn't want to deal with again...Pits, chips, and enlarging bare spots in the bottom of the oven.

It is interesting to go to the Applinace Guru and read the various posts about people who run the self clean on thier ovens the day before Thanksgiving. It appears many people want nice clean oven when guest arrive, but that seems to be the busiest day for service call of oven that failed during self clean. It is a shame oven manufacturers don't seem to implement this feature worth a %$#@.

Entertaining reading... if you have thick skin ;-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Don't self-clean before a Holiday

rhome410, I will definitely keep an eye out on the finish. Before returning the old oven we did a full cleaning and I did not notice any additional pieces, but I will keep eyes open going forward. We were lucky in that they made us an offer to add a 5 year warranty on the new oven (from new delivery date no less) for $99. Normally I don't buy these warranties but after the last problem I figured I would go for it. Hopefully that will cover us if this happens in the future, but I'm hoping they have the interior finish issues worked out.

I am at the point of choosing either a single wall oven with convection, or even w/o. Whole kitchen is gutted and contractor soon ready for me to choose.

I have looked online at the forums to get good feedback.
Started out with GE Profile, looked at Bosch, and now considering Monogram. Also thought about Electrolux.

Am needing a cooktop to go with. Looked again at GE Profile, and Bosch. Missed picking up a closeout Monogram!

The Bosch I have looked at are for oven HBL5045 30inch thermal/convection, and cooktop NET9652UC. Can get closeout deal at Lowe's.

Only cooktop I looked at for GE Profile was a PP962.

Sister has Monogram and likes.

Concerned with reliability and ease of use. I too think I will stay away from self clean after reading all of these posts.

Any help will be appreciated. Am off again to look, and need to make a decision by Wed of this week.

Slp-ccc-az,
I now have a Monogram and had no trouble at all with the self-clean.

I don't think your cooktop has to be the same brand as your oven...Mine aren't. I would get the oven that suits you best and the cooktop that also fits your needs and wants best, and not worry about making them the same brand. You see the oven more, so in a tie between 2 models or brands, the look of it might carry some weight.

The Monogram is not at all complicated to use. The Bosch might be wonderful, but it being a new model to them with bigger cavity and features their other ovens didn't offer, it made me nervous. Electrolux seems to be very well thought of, but the smaller interior was a problem for our family. The Monogram uses the fans a little differently for their reverse-air convection and temperature regulation that I'm not sure I'm completely sold on, but we get decent results. I probably wouldn't notice and have any complaint if I hadn't had the Fisher and Paykel ovens right before...which were amazing baking performers...if only their finish and control buttons worked as well. :-/