Yes, it's typical - there's something called UMRP - a price below which dealers are not allowed to go - and although many of us consider it price fixing, the US Supreme Court ruled that it is legal. You can sometimes get deals on floor models, or get the dealer to throw in free shipping, or, as you found, a discount on a non-UMRP brand, etc.

Sadly, the best way to get a discount on high-end appliances may be to purchased a new or almost new home that is in foreclosure.

Do you deserve a discount? Or have you been conditioned to expect one.

Do you get a discount on a CAT scan at your hospital? How about at the Lexus dealer? Get one on an Apple computer or iPhone? What about at the supermarket? Some items are sold at a loss every other week while others never ever go "on sale" or have coupons.

What ever happened to a fair price for a fair product?

Who's to say the prices set by the manufacturers represent a "fair price for a fair product"?

And yes, if you choose a certain provider, a CAT scan will be discounted. Likewise, Lexuses are not all sold at MSRP. They constantly run lease promotions or the "December to Remember" sale, for example. I have seen sales on Apple computers. The price of the Iphone dropped considerably since its introduction.

When a price floor is artificially set by a manufacturer, you can almost be assured that you are not paying a fair price for a fair product.

antss - this might be the one place where I will never agree with you. ;)

"Do you deserve a discount? Or have you been conditioned to expect one."

I don't know about the first question, but the second one is clearly "yes". Maybe Lexus fixes prices (wolfgang - I'd bet those incentives are across the board, not dealership specific) but for every car that is price fixed I could name 20 that aren't. Apples are price fixed, but there's are others that are sold competetively. What about the supermarket you ask? Well no I don't haggle at the supermarket, but certainly have an idea of which items are cheaper in one supermarket versus another, and choose which store to go to based on my shopping list du jour.

"What ever happened to a fair price for a fair product?"

Of course everyone should get a fair price for a fair product, but who's to know what that fair price is if it's fixed by the manufacturer? If everyone is forced to sell pencils for $5 a piece does that make it a reasonable price?

If UMPR wasn't making dealers a nice comfortable profit then either a) they wouldn't bother to sell the product or b) you'd be hardpressed to find a dealer selling stuff as low as UMRP. Perhaps the real issue here is to protect the dealer who invests in a quality showroom from being run out of business by the internet guy or the dump store in the crack part of town undercutting him. Given the same price, I suppose the nice place will get more business. Is that what's going on here?

Simple economics: the price will be what the market will bear. If Miele and Sub-zero could not sell their appliances at their UMRP prices, the prices would come down. This applies whether we are talking appliances, houses, cars or gasoline (hence, the recent gas price drops when American drivers cut their driving amounts significantly). Since Miele et al can find enough buyers willing to buy at the prices they dictate in order for them to make their targeted profits, there is no reason for them to lower their prices via discounts.

At the individual retailer level, you will find other means to save money and "get a deal" that the retailer can provide to help encourage the sale to you. They are things like free shipping and installation, throw in a garbage disposal, or extend the warranty.

I bought a car recently where the dealer could not go below a certain price. To get around that, they gave me a free extended warranty, various upgrades, fancy car mats, free oil changes for a year. So the "discount" is not always in the form of a bottom-line price. So, to the OP, talk to your retailer and see what he/she has to offer.

Thanks for the positive responses and sharing good ideas.

Chipshot - My point on the CAT scan was not: do they vary in pricing but, do YOU haggle a "discount" when you go see the radiologist? Most folks just fork over their copay. Perhaps not the best example. Contractors with large volumes "earn" a discount because of that volume. I can tell you for a fact Sub Zero and Wolf can be had at a discount too. You can earn one also by buying 70 ranges, 70 ,- 736 TCI's, 70 microwaves, and 70- 30" ovens for your project. Depending on your distributor you might even get a few freebies for your personal use. Gratis instal and or delivery is fairly common, though has waned lately with $4 gas prices.

Wolfgang, - who say the price isn't fair. The end user makes this choice everyday on everything from which coffee to by, clothes to wear, car to drive home to live in, food to eat, computer and internet service to use. Isn't your broadband overpriced???? It runs on wires that are decades old, long since paid for, and maybe even underwritten by your local government. Lexus runs the Dec. sale to get rid of last years models. The only time a promotion happens is if they misguaged the market and or have a stinker on their hands. That model's production is then cut or canceled to re-align their sales. And yes, there are exceptions to this but rarely is a "discount" given on a Lexus. I phone may have dropped in price but it's still the same at the AT$T store as the Apple store as it is at Cingular or Best Buys. ABSOLUTELY no discounts on it. Apples go on sale just like Lexuses do . Old models, scratch and dents, store no longer will be carrying, ect... Thelower price iPhone was/is a calculated sales strategy to move more units, lower price after 80% of market is saturated, sell a few more to the deal hounds, and then roll out a new and improved model. lower price again but RAISE the useage fees which is where the real $$$ is. The few hundred bucks barely covers the cost of all the chips, silicon, aluminum, glass, and packaging on an Iphone. Apple and the dealers aren't making a whole heck of a lot on on a phone sale at $299. You probably don't get that because everyone else has conditioned you think handsets are free or 29.99 or 99 bucks at most. Apple/AT&T have simply taken the subsidy out of the equation, asked you to actually pay the real cost of the hardware and gotten you to fork over more $$$ and higher margin to their partner AT$T. How, by offering a free or discounted product? No, they've come out with a better/nicer/cooler product that you want and they're not about to errode their brand equity by letting a sales weasel move a truckload of stuff every week by any means necessary. This generally what Miele and Wolf do, build higher quality, better performing, cooler stuff and then charge a premium for it. Don't worry , they are also getting into the recurring revenue game too. Will soon be charging you to monitor your oven or wine cooler or fridge for trouble and automatically call you to sched. service call.

Ya think - everyone is not forced to sell ovens at a certain price only Wolf ovens ect..... It's not even forced, you can choose to carry the Wolf line or not. You could sell Whirlpool instead and be free to sell it at 25 bucks less than you paid the distributor for it and deliver and install it for free too!
You bring up excellent points about sales targets and "high"fixed price, Lexus only lowers if they are not moving product, it's rare and they go to great lengths to not condition people to expect a "discount". Ditto on showroom investment, that's really what's driving UMRP not where is my next yacht payment coming from.

The anti-competitive practice of UMRP is one of the major reasons we chose Monogram over some of the others.

GE does not participate in this practice. We still did not buy from the absolute low price dealer, but made an informed decision on price vs service and bought some of each. With UMRP you know the price up front, but not what you are paying for.

The 'fair price for the product' is EXACTLY the price the market will bear at the time of sale. IE the agreed sales price. NOT a market controlled price set by the manufacturer.

Ah, but if the manufacturer is getting enough sales volume then the UMRP is the fair market price and prices will not be discounted below UMRP. as others have said, you are not required to purchase an appliance which carries an UMRP as part of the sale.

When did profit become a dirty word? Appliance margins are a LOT slimmer than most people think! Maybe 25% on "luxury" brands. So, for that $7K range, the dealer gets $1750 of "profit". From that, he has to pay to keep the showroom open, the lights on, and the hours (and benefits) of at least one employee. Then there's advertising, community involvement charity events, reinvestment back into the business, and maybe there might be 5% of that $1750 left over as "profit" for the owner of the business after everything else gets paid. Often, the owners make far less than the sales staff do during lean times. Anyone think that we're not in lean times here? A lot of smaller family owned businesses won't have the economic wherewithall to withstand the current downturn. They've trimmed things to the bone already for consumers conditioned to expect "discounts". THere's nothing left to discount. Except service. Or close their doors.

Interesting thread. Jcthorne has it right; to me, a "fair price" is the absolute lowest price that a seller will accept for their product. Anything lower, and I'm forking over more my hard earned cash than I need to.

I think most every producer of products knows how much it costs to create and sell their product, and that includes all of the costs, including overhead like "community charity involvement events." Producers then price their product with a certain profit margin in mind, and it is this margin that is more flexible with some companies than others. Wolf, Apple, etc., choose to set a hard floor on this margin. Nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with other companies moving this floor on the margin to move more product, or capture market share.

As a consumer, I can freely choose who I want to make a transaction with. Profit is not a dirty word, but if I personally think a product with a UMRP is priced to high (too much profit for them, thinner wallet for me) than I simply won't buy it. Plenty of other options out there. It's one of the things I love about capitalism.

"As a consumer, I can freely choose who I want to make a transaction with. Profit is not a dirty word, but if I personally think a product with a UMRP is priced to high (too much profit for them, thinner wallet for me) than I simply won't buy it. Plenty of other options out there. It's one of the things I love about capitalism."

I agree vote with your wallet. Just don't bellyache because one firm has something you like/want if it were only a bit less or were more flexible about discounts. I'm not picking on you dhc8 , only quoting you.

"to me, a 'fair price' is the absolute lowest price that a seller will accept for their product."

So therein we have the answer. UMRP is to customers as labor unions are to employers. Screw them long enough and they'll band together and now you're screwed.

Personally, I want to be able to negotiate the price with the dealer. UMRP prevents me from doing that.

And I don't own a Lexus.

And eventhough I don't negotiate the price for that MRI, my insurance company does. It they think the price is too high, they don't pay.

ya think...

I don't think trying to get the lowest price that a dealer with accept is "screwing" them. They are not obligated to sell anything to us. I guess I don't see the correlation.

dhc8 - It was the word "absolute" that I reacted to. If there's a dealer struggling to pay his electric bill he might let something out the door for a few bucks above cost. That doesn't make it a fair price, and by him doing that he's set a precedent which will make it harder for every other dealer to get a fair price. My analogy, perhaps a bad one, was that there are employers who would love to exploit those willing to do hard work for minimum wage (or less), so those trying to make a decent living wage unionized and in many cases, in my opinion, now demand a heck of a lot higher wage than their work is worth.

ya think...

I think we disagree what a fair price for any given product is, but I see what you're driving at with your analogy. I don't know that much about labor relations, but it seems to me if UMRPs have been set collectively by companies, that would be collusion, and hence, illegal. The right of workers to organize has no such wiff of wrong-doing.

Anyway, interesting topic, fun discussion, but I don't think I'm adding much to rknee's question beyond my original post (sorry rknee). There's got to be a forum somewhere on gardenweb where this topic would make sense. Suggestions?

LOL nah, it's not that fun!

I don't think there's much to add to the original question. Bottom line seems to be that the general public can't buy below UMRP but can negotiate get side percs, or reduced price on other products in the package.

I've found some stunning deals (50-75% off list) by asking local distributors and to-the-trade retailers how/when they sell overstock and returns. There's an amazing amount of inventory in the channels that was ordered for canceled projects or returned/refused by over-extended homeowners.

I within the last month I purchased a new sub-zero for 60% off list and a 48" Best range hood for around 80%. Those two alone saved me around $5K. I'm picking up a $1,000 warming drawer for $225 this afternoon.

The places I talked with had loads of equipment.

Im not sure who would qualify as a to the trade retailer,or if when you mention disributor is that the regional agent for that brand/product? But do let me know. I'd be curious as to warranty and condition on returns/overstocks, but it sounds as if you've done well. I'm about to put in a whole kitchen applicance order, this would be helpful

Guys, your health insurer isn't REALLY, bargaining for that MRI, or hip replacement. It's more of an ultimatum, if you want our business and ACCESS to our members, this is what we'll pay for (x) procedure or medicine. Oh, and you cannot select or cherry pick profitable sectors.

You as a health care provide choose to be part of that network or not. When you sign up you then start rationing the services that loose you money so you can keep your business running and profitable. Consumes then wait and wait and wait, or are simply steered away from procedures that may benefit them (and arent life threatening) because their (your insurer) can't / won't pay.

Antss, I use the ultimatum style of bargaining all the time. I love getting a call back after walking out of, say, a car dealership that has rejected an offer. It's a buyer's market for many things these days. Take advantage! We're in the market for a piano and cannot believe how inflexible the stores are being. Eventually they'll be in more of a hurry to sell than we're in a hurry to buy. An efficient marketplace?

eljeffe, aren't distributers prohibited from selling directly to the public?

chipshot - good luck wih that style at the Apple store when you want to get the new iPhone, or at the SubZero dealer, or the Saturn deaker, or the Bose store. The fellow at the apple store hopefully can contain his laughter, but he'll throw your # away within 60 seconds of you're leaving the store. What's great about our system is you don't have to have an iPhone (whatever) there are other choices of gadgets that do the same thing at different price levels and sales models. Now, if you want the industry leader, the better interface, and the snob appeal/coolness factor that Apple has .........then you pay the freight. If you just want/need an apliance that is a phone, email and web interface , then there are lots of products out there. Blackberry had the market to itself for years.

I also think it's a bit ironic in that you bring up that style as it's kinda what UMRP is from the other side of the fence. You want this widget?, It's this price.......everywhere.

"What's great about our system is you don't have to have an iPhone (whatever) there are other choices of gadgets that do the same thing at different price levels and sales models."

And opting for one of those alternatives is like walking out without ever walking in, pretty much what we practice. We may get an iMac soon, especially if new models are introduced and old ones need to be cleared from inventory.

Apple must love all the people who need to have the latest and greatest gadget. My old iPods (a 1GB shuffle and an 80GB video) work fine (knock wood). Every three or four product cycles should do it for me, thanks.

Agree with your other-side-of-the-fence comment. A level playing field where all have the opportunity to be equally dissatisfied.

Please see a response to a Wall Street Journal article regarding price fixing, this sums up the feelings of many appliance dealers regarding UMRP:

Fixed Prices May Be Back, But Who Are They Helping?
After last year's Supreme Court ruling ("Price-Fixing Makes Comeback After Supreme Court Ruling," page one, Aug. 18), high-end appliance makers, such as SubZero and Viking, instructed regional distributors to experiment with unilateral minimum resale price (UMRP) policies. In a perfect world, I agree with UMRP policies, but I think the implementation of this UMRP is ill-timed.

In a weak housing market, where all appliance sales are off at least 20% and there is a saturation of dealers in the area, the competition for customers is fierce. When dealers are competing for the same customer, price becomes a major factor in the courtship of the customer. Who is to say that an operationally efficient dealer shouldn't be able to sell on a lower margin than its competitors?

The majority of our sales are to commercial clients, like builders, kitchen and bath dealers, and remodelers. We sell to them on lower margin with the expectation of their repeat business. However, with UMRPs on some of our brands, our commercial clients are forced to pay the same price as a retail customer. We walk a fine line: Do we violate UMRP policy to maintain our commercial business, or do we adhere to the policies and get eaten alive by our competition, who may violate the policy?

The irony of this is that the distributors that are enforcing UMRPs are complaining that their sales are off by 20% to 30% for the year. With dealers scared to violate UMRP policies for given brands, some are pushing customers toward non-price-protected brands. Could this explain why distributor sales are off?

Anon Appliance Dealer

chipshot, are you going to haggle for the new iMac? Doubt it, the price will be lower but it's not going to be open to debate. Same on your old iPod. Price was the price.

guy15 -last years court decision was not the start of UMRP but merely the judiciary's rubberstamp of it. Many brands have been practicing it for decades. This was simply an end to the debate over weather it was "price fixing". It will be interesting to see how these manuf. react to the current climate and lower sales. I think even the large vol. commercial sales are down too. So will they protect their image or their growth? Sooner or later businesses reach a point of flat or declining sales, growth is not infinite, I hope the current generation of leaders don't sell their co.'s souls for their own bonuses.

Haggle for an Apple product? No, I know better than that. I would, however, expect a lower price on an outgoing model iMac (assuming any are available). Today's offerings suit me just fine. I'll let others go ga-ga over whatever new features are introduced and pay for the privilege.

By the way, I was able to purchase Bose noise-cancelling headphones at a discount when the number of credit card reward points was cut in half. Prices aren't always measured in dollars.

Got a fantastic deal on a whole Electrolux Pro kitchen by ordering online. I got quotes for package from 4 dealers and had them competing against each other!! My total package ended up being $4,000 below lowest price available locally, I got free shipping (across the country) and they even threw in a garbage disposal! Happy hunting.

don't think Electrolux's reg. line has UMRP. Anyway all you,ve gotten is a Fridgedaire with a nice suit. So in effect you paid regular price so Electrolyx can allow dealers to give "deals" or worse you over paid for an average appliance.

Chipshot, you've proven that Umrp works for those that have exceptional products and adhere to the strategy. Apple has conditioned you to not expect a discount for their products.

Others are trying to do the same. Like SubZero. You can find a deal if you happen upon a discontinued model, open box, display, ect... You're just not going to get 15% off at a dealer.

Electrolux does have UMRP but got discount anyway. I considered Termador, Dacor, Viking and Subzero/Wolf but repair costs are exorbitant and friends who have them have had repeated service calls, particularly for ranges. Other friends who have Electrolux Icon Pro love the appliances and have had no problems. Who cares if it is dressed up in a nice suit (and it is nice!), it works!!

Electrolux does have UMRP (check any store) but got discount anyway and freebies online!!. I considered Thermador, Dacor, Viking and Subzero/Wolf but repair costs are exorbitant and friends who have them have had repeated service calls, particularly for ranges. Other friends who have Electrolux Icon Pro love the appliances and have had no problems. Who cares if it is dressed up in a nice suit (and it is nice!), it works and I am one happy camper!!

I know the ICON line has UMRP but didn't think the Reg . line was subject to it. My mistake.

Icon has URMP (was told by retail stores) but still got discounts, free shipping and other freebies from online stores.

electrolux

Great news!! Turns out end of month, end of quarter, end of year, slowing economy does encourage some dealers to be creative with their pricing packages. Saving about 12% percent as compared to the lowest price allowed quoted by several dealers (and web sites).

By the way, it took about 2 hours and 15 phone calls, but I was also able to find Lexus dealers that discount, too.

rknee

I'd be curious to know which Lexus model you were asking about, and what the discount was. Can you take delivery of that car this month, is it an 09 model or 08 and unless you recieved a signed order form stating the price (hopefully discounted for real) all you have is a sales pitch.

Great on the appliances, but a package leads me to believe you weren't just shopping UMRP appliances. I could sell you all wolf stuff and give you a whatever not subject to UMRP, no charge delivery, and as long as I still make money everyone is happy. Wolf is happy, your happy. It only matters long term for me if I don't make money, I'll probably fold shop. You won't care because your unlikely to buy another set of appliances for a while, and I'm sure you could find another niave appliance guy when the time comes. At the end of the day you will look out for your bottom line and I'll look for mine. It's the way the free market works. Fortunately for both there are plentyof choices for both dealers and customers.

The appliance brands are Dacor, Thermador and Best by Broan. I don't know whether these are UMRP or not.

Can anyone give me an idea of how much lower, in general, UMRP is from MSRP for high-end appliances such as Gaggenau, Thermador, Miele, Wolf, SubZero?
Is it 5%, 10%, 15%?

TO RECENT BUYERS of appliances, would you mind sharing approximately how much lower than the full retail price (MSRP) you actually bought your appliances for? Obviously no one would pay full retail, I'm sure not even Donald Trump, but I'd like to get an idea, when I walk into a retailer today, whether they're quoting me a price that's closer to MSRP or UMRP!

Thanks!