Placing an order shortly for Wolf oven. Double M series or one steam and one oven? Does the size of the steam oven feel abbreviated? Concerned about size...and cleanup?

The size is, unfortunately, a bit too small for a sole oven but is perfect for a second. I would love to be able to fit a half sized sheet pan in mine. But, for normal use it is just fine. I just use another oven for the sheet pans (and have a Viking induction range). Since you are getting another oven, I would definitely get a steam. For most uses the steam is big enough.

Cleaning has been a challenge, especially after convection roasting meats. The people at Wolf (who are fabulous) told me I could carefully use an odor-free oven cleaner, I forgot the brand, probably Easy-Off, but Target had it. That made a big difference as the smoke alarm had started going off when I used it.

One issue with the steam oven is that the temp can only go to 455 (? not sure of the exact temp). I use some recipes that call for 475 or even pre-heating to 500. Again, with a second oven available it is less of an issue.

Have had ours for 6 months now and used it maybe 10 times mainly for reheatig things, for roast chickens, and for pork tenderloins with very good results. It does seem slightly small but hasn't been an issue for our needs to date. Cleaned it once with Easy-Off.

Check out this web link. The size of the convetion steam oven is big enough to fit at least a 16 lb. turkey.

The Steam Oven – A Must Have Healthy Cooking Tool

I have easily convection roasted 2 chickens and a tenderloin at once in one roasting pan (that's when the oven got really dirty). I use it for everything but bagels (need a hotter oven to start) and baking where I want to use a half-sheet pan. I do a lot of higher-volume baking and like to have 3 racks going at once, so my other oven is important to me. Normal cakes, etc. are fine, as are smaller amounts where I can use the Wolf pan. I am very glad I bought this oven.

orchidslayer: Really appreciate the feedback. Do you actually do cookies in it too?

Nice thing is those small ovens preheat very quickly too. Just installed a Miele combi-steam and 30" CO. Have only used the big one when I needed a full size sheet pan or broader area for broiling (Miele combi has a broiler). I probably won't use the big one much, but thought I'd really missing when cooking many dishes for the holidays.

Yes, but I usually use my other oven for them unless I am just making a couple and can fit them on the included Wolf sheet pan or a smaller cookie sheet. I usually make a lot at one time and have a good system with half-sheets and silpats. When I make a couple of scones or shortbread from frozen (Bouchon Bakery cookbook) I use the steam oven on convection. There is no non-convection, non-steam heat option, but I pretty much always use convection in my other oven, too.

A 12 cup muffin tin fits fine, too. It kills me that it is just a smidgeon too small for the sheet pan. I wanted to get the 30" width as I though it would be bigger inside, but learned it wasn't. Too bad.

Sad to hear that you felt gouged with Wolf half size perforated pan. It seems that V-zug does not have one for their steam oven either, at least on their current product catalogue.

Miele has half size pans, bother solid and perforated that fit to the rack and telescopic runners. They are pretty convenience and holds a bit more compared with putting perforated trays on a wire rack.

Miele even has a wire rack that would hold 2 1/3 GN trays, 1 1/2 GN tray, or 1 2/3 GN tray. With this rack, I can use standard size tray available from hospitality supply stores.

Hi all, Sarah from Sub-Zero and Wolf here. We recently published a cookbook full of recipes and tips for using your Wolf convection steam oven. Please click this link for the PDF: http://www.subzero-wolf.com/~/media/files/united%20states/product%20downloads/sub-zero%20wolf/ebooks/wolf-convection-steam-oven-screen.pdf I hope this helps answer some questions regarding settings and best techniques, and gives you an extended library of delicious ideas to try. If you have other questions, I'm happy to help. Enjoy!

@greasetrap, thank you for your feedback. If you are experiencing issues with the performance of the oven, please feel free to give our Customer Care team a call at (800) 222-7820. They're happy to discuss and troubleshoot with you; they're here to help. Thanks again.

I just installed this oven and the door will not stay open in the "at rest" position, in defiance of the User Guide instructions. As I read it, greasetrap has already called Wolf customer service and been told the "at rest" position problem is not a defect and have a list of people they will contact if they ever re-design the door (don't hold your breath). Why does Sarah from Subzero-Wolf want her to call again?

I bought the oven for bread baking, but haven't moved in yet so I can't comment on the baking performance. But it's not off to a good start when I need to make a service call before I have a chance to bake in it.

I bought the same collection of products as greasetrap so I'm a bit anxious over greasetrap's pending post.

I called Wolf customer service today and got the same answer at greasetrap. The door hinge is a "known problem". They took my email address and will let me know if/when Engineering designs a new hinge. The last news they received from Engineering regarding a solution was in May 2015 so it doesn't look like Wolf is in any hurry to fix the "known problem".

I am very disappointed, this is not how quality brands are supposed to treat their customers. Selling products with "known problems" that preclude using the product in the way the owner's manual tell us to use the product.

Anyone reading this thread should consider other brands.

Remember that this oven is made by V-Zug, not Wolf themselves, so engineering changes will take longer to get through. I also think the reason they haven't been aware of the issue until now is that the models V-Zug has been selling elsewhere in the world have used small handles. The thick pro handle style is only really popular here.

I was not aware of V-Zug. Who are they? In any case, if Wolf sells it under their brand, they are responsible. They didn't give me a discount because they sourced it from somewhere else, I'm not cutting them any slack on shipping a shoddy product.

VZug is a high end swiss appliance maker. The compete with Gaggenau in the European market. They have no independent presence in the US. They make great products including washers and dryers.

Good luck!

Of course Wolf is responsible. They spec'd a big heavy handle to be put on a product from a different manufacturer that wasn't designed for it, slapped their own brand name on it, and clearly didn't test thoroughly enough to notice before release.

I'm not trying to claim otherwise. Just trying to explain how this issue might have happened in the first place, and why it's taking them a long time to fix. It's not so simple as engineering the fix themselves and implementing the change in their own factory. They have to coordinate it with another company across an ocean.

homepro01 and hvtech42 - thanks for the education on VZug!

Planning a new home, looking at Wolf CSO. We live in a higher altitude (5300 ft), higher than some, not so many as others. We are very interested in the Wolf CSO and are actually considering going with that and nostandard oven. Suggested to us that we should have a standard oven as well for resale, but don't care about resale. At our age this will be our "forever" home and for the most part it is just the two of us. We will be able to have a broiler function as we will have a "bonus" Wolf countertop oven that has all functions except microwave. Now on for my questions. Could you or have you do veggies/potatoes/roast meat all at the same time in the same oven and how does it turn out and how do you time it? Are you happy with the results? I posed a question the the host chef at the demo last week, one CSO, two CSOs, or one CSO and one regular oven. Her reply, 2 CSOs. She has had one for 18 months and claims it's her go to oven. What say you my wise owners?

Sharon, for veggies and potatoes to go with Roast meat, you just have to put in meat first, then add veggies and potatoes later on if you want to cook them all in one go. Timing is as usual, subtracting time for meat with time for veggie and that's when your veggie goes in the oven.

This is the same with cooking with steam in multiple level. You put in food that takes the longest time in first, then other food that requires less time later on and everything will be done at the same time.

I have just one combi myself, but would opt for another pyro oven if I have a choice. A pyro oven will be a bless with cleaning up, plus it does have higher temp which is probably good for some breads, and pizzas.

Another option is a combi steam and a combi microwave (speed oven).

If you're OK with the size, just be sure you understand the cooking limitations. You can only convection bake in the CSO - no traditional (heat from bottom) so you would need to do that type of cooking in the countertop oven as well. The Miele CSO gives you more flexibility here as it has a broiler and traditional bake element. Also know the countertop oven isn't anything special or actually made by Wolf - just a rebadged dime-a-dozen toaster oven.

More, my comment was truncated, what is the highest temp for the CSO? My understanding is that straight convection is great for pizza. I will be cooking pizza and calzones on a baking steel, set for at least 500 degrees.

The CSO is not the best tool to use for pizza in my opinion. First of it only goes to 445 degrees. Also, you can only use straight convection which is not a good mode to use for pizza. The key to pizza is intense heat from the bottom to get that great crust without overcooking the toppings. If you throw a convection fan into the mix, or too much heat from the top, you run the risk of your toppings cooking too quickly.

Sharon, the CSO is a nice oven and very useful, but I wouldn't get 2 of them. A regular or speed oven would be much more useful as a second oven. Also, be aware that the people at the Wolf demo/display centers seriously overhype their products. The CSO is nice, but not as fantastic/indispensable as they make it out to be. If I had to do it over, I would have investigated Miele products more thoroughly. Although I don't have any evidence to back up this claim, my impression is that Miele is a more engineering-oriented company, while Wolf is more oriented towards marketing and brand promotion.

I also forgot to mention that steam can be useful, but can be overdone. I often shut it off after a few minutes, or some foods can become too soggy. Also, as hvtech mentioned, a steam oven has no particular advantage (and some disadvantages) if you don't need the steam. It certainly isn't optimal for making pizza.

I recently installed a Miele 24" combi oven and a 30" convection oven. I use the combi most of the time, it heats up very quickly and the steam is useful when reheating items. I use the bigger oven when I want to use a full size sheet pan, the larger broiler is good for things like nachos, and it has an intensive bake mode for pizza. The larger size will also come in handy for the holidays.

Thank you all. You are all making very good points. Luckily, I won't have to make a final decision until we are dry walled and ready to figure out the cabinet layout. I would miss the ability to host a homemade pizza party, we do have such fun with them, and I've just finally figured out how to adjust my recipes for artisan bread for higher altitudes. I will continue to monitor this thread and gleam your combined knowledge and ultimately let you know my decisions.

OBTW, how is the CSV for as a substitute warming drawer?

I went with one CSO and one M-series SO30 conventional oven. The conventional is for baking loaf breads, cookies, and pizza, because it will reach 550F! I get the best pizza results using convection roast, heat from all around as in a stone wood fired oven.

Another tip is to add most toppings either after you finish baking the crust/sauce/cheese (the very hot pizza will cook thin meats like speck or prosciutto while waiting to be served) and greens or red onions stay fresh, or cook the meat during prep (e.g., sausage) and add after baking the crust, or bake the crust then add toppings and put the pizza back in the oven for 1-2 minutes. Loading up the pizza with all toppings and then baking makes it very challenging to get everything cooked to perfection.

Sharon, I have a combi, not the Wolf, but don't think most people would want two combi ovens. If you want pizza and have the space, there is nothing like a Blackstone Pizza oven. It runs on propane and you can only use it outdoors, but it is a vast improvement over a basking stone in a 500 degree oven.

Anyone have success fining additional baking pans and perforated pans other than aping $$$ through Wolf? I LOVE this oven, but would like an additional set of trays and don't want to spend another $400 or so.

BTW- The Williams- Sonoma baking sheets are perfectly sized for cookie sheets

Marilyn, I don't have the Wolf, but most combis use hotel pans, also called steam pans. There are various sizes, and depths, of pans. They come in full size, half size, 2/3ds, and a variety of other sizes http://www.webstaurantstore.com/guide/556/food-pan-buying-guide.html

They are available in Stainless steel, and perforated stainless steel. Amazon has a good selection, but the link above has a more complete selection.

Standard GN sized pans won't fit directly on the shelves of Wolf combi, unfortunately. I have not seen any accessories from Wolf/VZug to allow usage of GN sized pans either. They would sit on wire rack all right, and that might be the only option.

Miele has a DGA rack adapter http://mielestore.com/default/cooking/steam-ovens/dga-rack-for-cooking-pans.html that saves a little bit of space compared with sitting those pans on wire rack. There are notches on the rack that would keep 2 of 1/3 GN pans, or 1/2 GN pan, or 2/3 GN pan in place. This DGA rack is about 450mm x 335mm (18" 3/8 x 13" 3/16) which may fit in a Wolf.

Interesting- any idea who makes the DGA/DGG/DGGL pans they have on their site? Miele's prices are way cheaper, but don't see any dimensions. listed

I have no idea who make Miele pan, but definitely they are better than the basic level hotel pan. Some top end hotel pan is as well made, may be even better.

Apart from DGGL20 (perforated), DGG20 (solid), and DGGL12 (perforated) which fits Miele XL model on the rack, the rest are GN sized. DGGL1 is 1/3 GN for example.

So frustrating that Wolf charges a ridiculous amount for their pans. That rack adaptor is interesting, depending on the size. Is it 450 mm or 18 3/8"? The small difference makes a difference here. .

450mm width is what I measured on mine.

so the 450mm x 335mm were actual measurements from edge to edge? Then the Wolf and Miele would have the same internal width, with the Wolf slightly deeper. Interesting.

Thanks for your help!

18 3/8" was my err in conversion, typo 24.5 vs 25.4 LOL.

450 on DGA is edge to edge. It is a little bit less deep than full size tray in order to accomodate GN size pan at 325mm. Miele full size tray is 450 x 385.

Check this out. It gives the mode, tray placement, temperature, and time for all foods cooked in the Wolf Steamer. Finally I can cook with the Wolf steamer and know what I am doing.

http://www2.subzero-wolf.com/products/downloads/SteamReference.pdf

Jeff, this comes with the steam oven. I use it all of the time. In fact, we have a vacation home where I have a countertop toaster/steam oven and I made a copy of this to estimate cooking times with that oven. It isn't perfect but it is very useful.

We bought our Wolf CSO largely for baking bread. The "Gourmet Mode" Bread setting (A11) does a great job for larger single loaves. However, I also like to bake baguettes and smaller separate rolls. I would like to create something using the "My Recipes Mode" that is more appropriate in times, and perhaps temperatures, than the built-in gourmet mode for bread (47 minutes). Does anyone know the "program" steps for the built-in bread setting, or know where I could get it? It would be great to have as a starting point for making adjustments. Thanks. @Sub-Zero, Wolf, and Cove

Have a look at Miele's recipe here from DGC 6800 cook book.

On page 442, translating into Wolf's term, for baguette, it would be starting from cold oven:

1. 40˚C/104˚F convection steam 8 minutes

2. 50˚C/122˚F convection steam 4 minutes

3. 210˚C/410˚F convection steam 6 minutes

4. 210˚C convection 30 minutes

The first 2 steps, would help proofing the dough further. Step 3 is for initial full rise with heat and humidity. Wolf does not have humidity adjustment where in Miele it can be set to 50% per recipe, so you can play around with timing, but 6 minutes after initial proofing sounds about right. Then finish off with dry heat, 30 minutes may be too long for a smaller loaf, but Miele program is written for the recipe in the book on page 110 for ~ 500g loaf.

You can download the pdf version of the book from Miele Ireland.

Have fun programming.

Following..

@Chanop : Thanks, this is extremely helpful! The Miele cookbooks look like good resources.

Note added: One may download theDGC 6000 XL cookbook from an icon at the lower left of the live frame.

Chanop, thanks for the link as well, though I am a bit confused. I checked the Miele Ireland version of the book, and it has a table on page 22 for baguettes that says

Stage 1 100 C 100% Humidity 7 minutes

Stage 2 170 - 190 C 90% Humidity 19 to 25 minutes

Stage 3 160 C 30% Humidity 5 minutes.

Then on page 24, it says use automatic setting 25 minutes.

Of course, I don't know how it says the automatic setting will take only 25 minutes, when the table is more than that. Though it does seem to suggest that they want pure steam for the first 7 minutes. I may play with the suggestions for whole meal for my next try.

Here is a group that I have joined and found to be very helpful. Many of the posters are from Australia and NZ and have other brands of steam ovens, but there are some of us with the wolf ovens. Lots of conversations, suggestions, recipes and there are always answers to any questions you want answered.

https://www.steamandbake.com

Another group/resource: https://www.facebook.com/groups/csocooking/