I would guess the problem is not the dishwasher but something leaking INSIDE the wall, perhaps from rain on the roof or some overhead leaking pipe (toilet, shower, bath, etc. ) somewhere that drains seeping into the sheetrock and to who knows what other spots. I'd cut open the sheet rock behind the cabinet space and take a look at what's behind there. Not a big deal to replace sheetrock.

If I were to guess...I'd say a shower or toilet above kitchen is the cause. Dishwashers just don't put out that much steam.

From the pic I get , noithing's clear. It's rather dark, fairly small, and mostly shows the wall. My comments are on track though it seems. Doubtful that that much moisture is going to exit the unit front or rear, rise, change direction twice an condense on the wall behinds a cabinet. A leak at the rear of the DW or in wall pipe leak, or roof leak are more likely. I was thinking roof or roof vent leak myself. It's near the main sink and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the vent stack runs behind the DW.

I agree with glennsfc, antss, and teedup1. Pull out the sheetrock and look inside the wall. That's where the problem lies, IMHO.

I would install the new paper-less sheetrock, just to be safe-much more resistant to mold growth than conventional sheetrock.

While looking for leaks are certainly advisable, I have some other things to consider in case no leak is found. How is the humidity level in your house? Is that the only outside wall in your kitchen that has cabinets in front of it? Is the wall well-insulated? What is your climate like?

Looks to me like you're going to have pull that sheetrock down in any event -- tends not to dry or de-mold itself. I'll bet when you do, you'll find something else back there. Agree with previous posters that probably not DW. Agree DW can be diagnosed by running when pulled out.

Thanks again for all your thoughts, but how can you explain the fact that the sheetrock is just as solid as the day it was installed? I just got off the phone with the Industrial Hygenist that we paid two weeks ago to check out the situation. He's seen the mold and agrees that if the wall's not "mushy", then there's no need to remove the sheetrock because it's coming from inside the house.

Granted we don't know for sure if it's the dishwasher at this point still, but it's not from the outside or within the wall.

I live in Ohio where it does tend to get humid in the summer , but we keep the AC on side. The house is usually at 74 degrees. When we looked in through the electrical sockets, we saw the standard moisture control block (plastic sheeting) that was laid closer to the inside wall of the house. This wall is an outside wall too.

I will possibly try to run a longer electrical line so I can have the DW function while out from underneath the countertop.

Just another note for all you helpful people out there. I love this forum and this is the first place I think of when I have questions or problems. I do realize it's not fair for me to expect too much diagnosing of the problem when you aren't actually here in real life and photos just don't do the problems justice.

I just originally wanted to know if anyone had ever encountered this. I'm finding from the forum that steam from a dishwasher causing mold is pretty much unheard of. I've called numerous appliance places, talked to neighbors, looked online and have pretty much verified that fact. As the guy over the phone told me this afternoon, "That's a new one."

For now, we'll keep trying to figure it all out.

Thanks!

"if the wall's not "mushy", then there's no need to remove the sheetrock because it's coming from inside the house. "

This is not entirely accurate, though it may be what's happening in your case. If the water has dried up, say from the last prolonged spell of rain then the rock has dried out too, but the conditions have been met for mold growth, and it's started, it doesn't go away when the water dries up. If it's from the DW I'd expect the rock to be damp from the inside if you run the DW on a regular basis.

I would remove the rock, your going to have to deal with the mold anyway, why not just get rid of it???

My suggestion would be, remove the sheetrock, for a couple of reasons. There maybe mold on the side that's against the wall. Mold is an extreme health issue and for your peace of mind, it's worth it.

Once it's off, take picutres of wall to show that there are no pipes running behind the sheetrock. While it does seems odd, steam from the dishwasher, might actually be to blame.

If the steam comes from the rear of the dishwasher and gets trapped between the wall and the cabinets, it would make sense. While it's harder to imagine from the front, it could happen.

If it's a Kenmore dishwasher, and Sears has the warranty, they need to fix it. From what I've experienced with them, they will give you the run around. Be firm and persistant. Mold can cause a serious health problems.

By the way, a model number would be helpful, as a lot Sears dishwashers have Ultrawash technology.

What might be causing this is the SaniWash cycle, if yours has one.

Also, changing the sheetrock and trying again, to see if the same thing happens is a good way to prove or eliminate the cause.

I would remove the sheetrock and check the vapor barrier as well.

There are two ways for the steam to get there--from behind the sheetrock or in front of the sheetrock. If it's coming from in front of the sheetrock, it should be easy to see coming out from above the counter. I'm guessing you haven't seen that happen,because you'd know the problem. The other way for the steam to get there is inside the wall, which you wouldn't see. But that means that the mold is also likely on the inside of the wall as well. So, if it is the dishwasher, you would have a problem inside the wall.

If it's not the dishwasher, then the vapor barrier may be incorrectly installed, or you may just have some sort of leak--perhaps an overflowing gutter? Or a stack, or a supply line with pinhole leak.

I believe possible chances of a second floor bathroom leak have been discussed above, but how about your plumbing to the kitchen faucet?

Does that piping maybe run along that wall (at around the mold level) and then turn down to the sink area coming out below the sink? Maybe you sprung a pinhole leak somewhere along the length of pipe behind the wall. Both the hot and the cold line are under constant pressure until they hit the faucet lever.

If the sheetrock is not wet currently, maybe the pinhole crudded over in time.

Bet you do find something behind that sheetrock.

I believe possible chances of a second floor bathroom leak have been discussed above, but how about your plumbing to the kitchen faucet?

Does that piping maybe run along that wall (at around the mold level) and then turn down to the sink area coming out below the sink? Maybe you sprung a pin-hole leak somewhere along the length of pipe behind the wall. Both the hot and the cold line are under constant pressure until they hit the faucet lever.

If the sheetrock is not wet currently, maybe the pinhole crudded over in time.

Bet you do find something behind that sheetrock.

That's not from the dishwasher. It's from something like: leaking roof, upstairs leaking plumbing, pinhole in pipe in the wall, leaking plumbing joint in the wall.

I suppose if you were constantly boiling water in a stock pot under that cabinet, you MIGHT have that kind of build-up. But you would know about it.

I agree that it is extremely unlikely that DW or any DW could cause mold like that with anything resembling normal household use. I agree that a leak of some sort is a more likely cause, but I disagree that you should look up to find it. Water moves downhill, but it can soak up into sheetrock -- and those water stains are moving up the wall and they appear to be coming from the side where the sink is.

You have a lot of plumbing in that general area -- and you may have to look at the wall behind the sink cabinet to figure out whether it's coming from a line in the wall, a connection behind the sink, a drain. We had a screw put through a wire during our cabinet installation -- you could have a screw or nail that nicked or pierced someting. Look down and to the right.

By the way -- I suspect that if water has spread that much, you may well find mushy or dry crumbly sheetrock when you find your source. It could just be wicking on the paper cover with a slow leak that isn't saturating the rock, but something doesn't seem right.

Have you run your DW pulled out of that space yet? I can only see that being the culprit if you have a leak out the back -- a seam in the tub, a fitting, even the water supply line.

Trouble shooting after you've done al this work is not fun. I've been having to do some myslef this week. Good luck.

The mushy drywall question is not necessarily true. I recently had a wall that had black mold on it but the wall board was solid, just black. well we pulled down the wall board and then entire wall inside was totally rotted. water seaping in from a leak at the edge of the roof.

Well, WE'VE thundered this dilemma with every guess but OP Esanjays has not made an appearance since Oct. 30 on this thread.

A few days ago I wrote the OP a separate email to ask if a cause and resolution had been found for the problem, and inquiring minds here. I've not received a response...yet.

Hi Everybody!

Wow, I have been checking email everyday but suddenly tonight I got 3 days worth of responses from my question. I haven't been ignoring you, but I think something's up with some server either on my side or the forums because it basically spewed out some a half dozen more thoughts about the dishwasher.

OK so here's the resolution. It's only half hearted I'm afraid. My husband absolutely disagrees with all the advice about cutting into the wall. I can't convince him to do it. We had three days of cleaning and running two air machines non-stop and the initial mold has been killed from the surface and cleaned up. We ended up reinstalling the dishwasher. We are diy-challenged so we had the person who did the clean up reinstall the dishwasher. We are not able to run the dishwasher pulled out since the lines are too short. It's been running for over a month now and I've placed a piece of plastic to prevent the steam from possibly traveling toward the back of the wall from the front vent.

Yes, I realize this is all basically a big band aid. We should cut out the wall to figure it out. I'll keep working on my husband about the back wall (make him think it's his idea ;) ).

McCall, I appreciate hearing about the mold behind a solid wall. You are the first. That gets me to thinking about it more. Thanks.

One more thing, my three month sore throat has disappeared since cleaning up the mold from the back. I know I am allergic to mold anyways and I was the only one who had any symptoms. So now if my sore throat comes back and lingers w/o a cold, I'll know where to look immediately.

Thanks for all your concern about this. BTW teedup1, I'm not familiar with what an OP is. What's that?

esanjays96

OP = Original post, and/or Original poster (owner of the original message)

Hope everything clears up for you on this problem. Mold is some scary stuff.

Thanks for getting back to the Forum and I hope your 'puter problems are cleared up now.

I was just kind of wondering if you kept a coffee pot on the counter there under where the mold was? Mine makes a lot of steam...

I'd be willing to bet that you have a vent from the kitchen drain going up through the wall (around the window) to the roof on that side of your sink. If water leaks in around the roof vent, it will travel down along the pipe or through the wall and cause mold or dry rot problems. Sometimes many feet from the area of intrusion. You might not get enough moisture to cause mushy wallboard, but chances are the insulation inside the wall is damp. Mold will grow anywhere that is even slightly damp, dark and with little air circulation.

If there isn't a vent line through that wall, then you have a water intrusion problem originating somewhere else. Are there other vents or roof penetrations somewhere higher on the roof above that wall? Water always travels downhill along the route of least resistance. Do you have eaves along the edge of your roof? If not, have you ever had ice dams or other problems that would cause gutters to overflow? Even a onetime leak can allow insulation to get wet, and once it does, it probably won't dry out before you have a mold problem.

The dishwasher is almost certainly not the root of your problem. There is damp INSIDE the wall. You need to find the source of the moisture intrusion somewhere up higher, or find where water can be entering through the exterior of the wall.

We used to have the range on an island. The vent out for that range went underneath the floor and out the side of the basement. That's what's there. It's caulked up, but there may be some leakage.

If that is a possible scenario, why was there no mold development in the area right below the overhanging cab?

I wasn't referring to a ventilation duct. I was referring to the plumbing vent which is a pipe running from the kitchen sink drain line, up through the wall, and then out through the roof.

It appears as though you don't have much understanding of of the mechanical systems in your house. That being the case -- you should call in an experienced contractor who can explain how things work around your home, then recommend a course of action. Your mold problem is due to moisture INSIDE the wall. I can't tell you how it got there, but it's a safe bet that it wasn't from steam coming out the back of your dishwasher. If you want to solve the problem, you need to determine where and how the moisture is getting INSIDE the wall. I suggested some possible scenarios above, but without inspecting the house or possibly opening the wall, it's impossible to say for sure. Get a competent contractor out there to determine the source of the problem. You're barking up the wrong tree with the dishwasher theory.

If your DH was the one with the mold allergy, he'd be happy to rip out the wall to solve the problem. Have someone rip out the wall when he's not home, and when he gets home say "Oops" - better to ask forgiveness than permission :-)

"why was there no mold development in the area right below the overhanging cab?"

I'll bet there is, you just can't see it (yet) because the wall board is covered with paint there. The mold is really eating the paper in teh drywall, takes longe or not at all to eat the paint.

At the very least I'd take core samples in various places on that wall to see what's happening behind it. If no mold, then you only have a few holes to patch. If yes, then you're going to want to take down the whole section.

By cleaning the mold you have only solved half the problem. If you still have a leak or steam escaping from the DW (doubt it) and don't remedy THAT problem, then your mold is going to be back, bank on it. Find the source of the moisture or you're just sticking your head in the sand.

I agree that it is unlikely that the mold was caused by the dishwasher.

We had a smaller mold issue at our old house, in a closet adjacent to the kitchen. My husband screwed a 2 x 4 on the closet wall but had no idea that one of the screws had pierced a pvc pipe. The hole was tiny enough that we never saw any water or damp wall board, but there was enough leakage over the years to allow mold to grow behind the 2 x 4. We had to cut out the dry wall and patch the pipe.

The dry wall wasn't mushy, by the way and the mold stayed behind the the 2 x 4.

This is a follow-up on the dishwasher steam issue I had in October. I am posting photos below of what we just discovered last week after going back into the wall. We did this because my husband was feeling around the wall and he easily put his finger right through the sheetrock!

OK so we call out the same people back to finish the job. The work was more extensive this time and we needed to call upon homeowners insurance to pay for it.

When we opened up the wall we found there was actually two sources of moisture. One was still the steam from the dishwasher. The other, a leak in the sanitary pipe. We found all this from the industrial hygenist who came out a second time.

I took the dishwasher into the appliance store, but they couldn't really find any leaks. They think it might have been installed too far back, but we won't really know for sure. The mold definitely fit the pattern of steam going behind the dishwasher and on either side of the cabinets. The pipe with a leak made the floor wet behind the dishwasher. We took out all the sheetrock and flooring that was affected.

You were right about taking a look behind the wall. We should have done that in October, but good thing it showed up again so we could have a second chance to fix it. By the time we exposed the wall behind the dishwasher and cabinets, it was so mushy, you could pull off the sheetrock with your hands.

I feel like we finally have this issue resolved. We bought a new dishwasher and will have the professional dishwasher installer put it in this time. We also patched the pipe. The hole in the pipe might have been from installing sheetrock or a paper towel holder. Be careful what holes you poke in your kitchen area!

Thanks to so many who invested their time reading this and answering my questions. Also thank you for knowing when to let us make our own mistakes.

Below is a link to the deconstruction, step by step. It really helped with our insurance claim to have so many photos of the process.

Here is a link that might be useful: More Mold Photos

Oh, my goodness, such a mess and hassle for you to go through. Surely a much bigger deal than I could have imagined without your pictures. However, I'm glad the source of the trouble was found, that your homeowners insurance kicked in, and that it is now fixed.

Thanks for the warning about poking holes!

Yep, these forums are full of people with expertise and life experiences from which all of us can learn.

I'm glad to see the problem was addressed but concerned about not seeing any signs of containment procedures being followed. Has testing been performed to confirm there was no cross-contamination affecting the entire house?

Everyone needs to review their homeowners insurance at each renewal to make certain the carrier is not eliminating mold coverage or imposing limits on it.

State Farm (So. Cal.) excluded anything to do with mold on our homeowners' AND auto policies quite some time ago.

chipshot,

He ran a 3 Stage HEPA system over the weekend as well as a dehumidifier. There wasn't a plastic sheeting across the room or anything.

We haven't tested the rest of the house. That might not be a bad idea though.

Don't be too alarmed if testing indicates mold or mold spores elsewhere in your house. It may be removable by HEPA vacuuming and/or simple damp wiping. If insurance has covered the situation so far, hopefully it will continue to do so. What you really want is for your house to pass what I have heard called "clearance testing". That's the best way for the remediator to confirm they have done everything necessary and no additional mold reservoirs exist.

I've never thought about mold being excluded from auto insurance. If a car had mold and was under warranty I'd be all over the manufacturer. And none of that dealer "spray is the solution" junk. Any evaporator or condensor needs to be thoroughly cleaned (removed if necessary) or replaced. FWIW, I haven't encountered any moldy smells in cars (touch wood) for about a decade. Maybe the manufacturers finally figured it out.

I hate to say I told ya so.....but, I told ya so. These types of problems are almost always caused by moisture inside the wall.

Anyway, I'm glad you finally got to the root of the problem and that all will be well in the end. Looks like it turned into quite a project.

I'm glad you got to the bottom of it but................

Like james said I told you so. Also, it finally came out that you DO have a bath directly above that place. At last one person here speculated that may be a cause but best I can tell you did not confirm this. That is a HUGE piece of info! Like I said, the chance of that much mold comming from DW steam is very unlikely. If I were you , I'd be pissed at my environmentalist, who was at you house and saw the WHOLE picture. Same with the other contractors. Common sense is usually the best guide, and these things are almost never a simple solution.

Future readers should take heed: It's never an easy solution, Mold is caused by a water source, eiether a lot of it or a small bit continuously. Check you ins. policies, almost all are going to not covering mold, even contractor's liability policies. Give us ALL the info, even the bits you don't think are important or relevant.

Looking through all pictures, Mold and Mold2, I don't see any evidence of mold related to steam coming from the dishwasher. All of it looks like it came from leaking in the wall. Am I missing some of the pictures?

Conclusions about steamy dishwasher were based on photos #1, 9, & 21 from the first mold page. The leak was on a vertical pipe and it just went down to the floor from there. I guess you aren't agreeing that the steam vapors couldn't have caused the growth on either side of the dishwasher.

FYI I am including a photo of the size of the hole and location of the pipe as well in my mold3 page linked below.

You really think all that mold spread that far from the leak in the pipe? It seemed far fetched from the people who have come out to do the work and evaluations.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mold3

"You really think all that mold spread that far from the leak in the pipe?"

Absolutely ! How often do you use that bathroom? Is anything else connected to that pipe? The people you've hired to help you are either ignorant, plain stupid, or just telling you what you want to hear. None are good traits when dealing with mold remediation. Do the math. What's the max volume of steam could come from that DW, and how many cylces a day are run. Hint it is no more than the max water volume of the last rinse cycle, and is actually less since most of it gets drained away. Now measure the volume of water that comes down that pipe. It is a min. of 2.2 gallons a MINUTE when used. Could be more if if you have older fixtures and toilets. Now, which is more likely to cause the kind of mold you see? Remember that your DW was found to have no leaks, and the steam from the front has to change direction twice and penetrate a rather narrow slot to make it behind the cabinets, AND condense on the wall in sufficiet volume to cause the breeding ground, and penetrat the film of paint on the wall the saturate the paper in the sheetrock.

So........do YOU still think the steam from your DW is causing all of that mold???????

I agree with antss. With the guilty pipe now revealed, in regards to pictures 1, 9, and 21, I don't source the mold to the dishwasher. Leaking water from the pipe would saturate the wall and insulation, drip down the pipe, seep along the baseboard, soak into the surrounding cabinetry.

You show only one picture of the installed dishwasher and it's a darkened exposure. I took the liberty of lightening the picture and indicating where is the vent. The vent faces outward, is an inch or so below the edge of the counter top. Difficult to tell because of the angle of the shot, but the dishwasher console appears to be protruding a little beyond the edge of the counter top. I don't see anything wrong with the dishwasher install in terms of positioning based on this picture. It's unlikely that much moisture could come from the vent and migrate to the (other) side of the cabinet where the mold appeared or that far down behind the dishwasher.

I'll remove the picture if you object.

{{gwi:1471879}}

"You really think all that mold spread that far from the leak in the pipe?"

Absolutely. Sheetrock is a sponge--the water travels thru it by capillary action. And mold thrives in warm, moist, dark, closed spaces...like behind that (apparently removed) wall cabinet.

I've got the same dishwasher and i also have a mold problem after doing some investigating I found the problem is with the built in disposal unit in the bottom of the dishwasher there is a lip on the inlets that holds food particles and mine was almost totally blocked with old food ...I know gross! I put an extension on my sprayer hose and squirted a jet of water in the disposal and couldn't believe what came out of the thing ...I would think anyone with this machine would have to do this at one point of owning this machine but it doesn't say it in the manual and there's no online info.
I had mold in my rack wheels ,steam vent, jet dry thing, and also under my cabinets WOW my advice CHECK YOUR DISPOSAL CAUSE THESE THINGS HOLD OLD FOOD AND YOU GET A MOLD PROBLEM!!! YUCK

I have two Miele dishwashers on either side of the sink on a center island, and the wall behind it just collapsed. Inside the drywall, it's soaking wet with condensation and black mold. Miele tech support assured me that their dishwashers, which have no vents for the heat and steam, are a completely sealed system. They say the moisture all condenses inside the dishwasher, flows into the sump, through the filter, and out the drain pipe. In the meantime, I have wet, moldy drywall to replace, and I don't know how to prevent this from happening again. So esanjays' problem may be "new," but it's not unique. There's a blog dealing with Frigidaire dishwashers' condensation problem, but it's in the front of the unit, not the back. Any further thoughts?

I don't quite understand what happened. If the dishwashers are in an island...what wall? Could you post a picture?

I think the dishwashers might not be at fault...maybe you have some leaky pipes?

Far more likely you have leaking plumbing than leaking dishwashers.

Pretty sure that it was not the DW. The condensation function of the DW happens entirely inside of the DW's tub. Even if the DW leaked, it was mostly the floor took the hit. I could not image that the water would go up to wet any large area of the drywall.

Im having the same issue. So I googled and found this page. I have the evil Samsung DW and was just told that the Samsung DW condensate bad in the back. I have a photo. The insulation on DW was very wet.

Samsung, it's just the best there is people. Case in point.

I am having my entire cabinet area removed due to an extremely pervasive mold smell which has been prevalent off and on for years. Finally, after having a sore throat for 6 weeks with chronic fatigue -- in addition to literally feeling shortness of breath when I am in my kitchen -- I had the DW pulled out from the cabinet and discarded. All of the composite-board-product which comprised the counter top for 72" has to be replaced as well. It has mold under about half of the area and the fibers have 'disintegrated into pulp'. I had been telling my husband for years that I could smell this. Since his death, I've now seen the proof and it will be my decision to remedy this once and for all.

I loved all the comments. But I have another question. sheetrock wall gets hot from the dishwasher running, and dry cycle. Sheetrock is pulling away from behind my counter top behind dishwasher and spreading over to sink. I’m a licensed plumber. Deal with leaks and none happening.

My question is, could heat as what’s happening, warp sheetrock to pull away from cabinet wall ? It’s spaced almost 1/2” at this time.