Skippy, this is no big deal. This joint also should be caulked. Just have him remove the grout from that joint, as well and caulk it the same time as he caulks the bathtub joint.

Bill, thanks
let me ask you this, where the floor meets the wall -
all around the bathroom - should that all be caulk not grout?
Should the grout only be between the tiles?

I know it doesn't sound like a big deal but I am really disgusted with this guy.....
This was a 3 day job to start out & he has to keep coming back to correct things
(like setting the toilet on top of a cracked tile, then telling me it is fine. I don't think so)

I am not happy with this guy at all. WHY do they not do things correctly in the 1st place???

Thanks for your help!

let me ask you this, where the floor meets the wall -
all around the bathroom - should that all be caulk not grout?
Should the grout only be between the tiles?

Yes and yes.

WHY do they not do things correctly in the 1st place???

Good question! If I could figure that out, I could spend less time on line, and more time setting tile!

Thanks Bill! I just cannot believe this guy! And he always acts like it is nothing.......
I will NEVER call him again!
I just want this bathroom to be done & over with! THANK GOD I didn't have the entire bathroom done! I can just see the tiles falling off the walls......
If you know of a good contractor in Philly area, let me know!

Hey Bill, This is still dragging on & on.....
I knew this was going to be a problem with the radiator...
He calls the house & gets my bf & tells him he is sending over the guy to fix this mess.
BUT, of course, he didn't do behind the radiator because it has to be be taken out by the plumber.
I called the contractor to tell him this job is still not done! The grout is cracking along the wall where the radiator is.........
Now he is making no big deal of it but I am.

He said he will come over shut down the entire plumbing system like before, pull the radiator, take out grout & run a bead of caulk along there. OR deduct something from the balance. I owe him $900 which I held back on until he corrected some of these mistakes.
He always makes me feel like I am being unreasonable.
Am I??
Our bathroom is extremely small.
The vanity was coming out anyway (had to get another one due to their mistakes)I wanted them to take out the vanity, take out the radiator, take out the grout, put in the caulk, put in the newer vanity & the radiator.
I honestly don't see how the plumber can take out the radiator without removing the vanity?
There is not even 12" between the vanity & the radiator
I don't have a picture so it is hard to explain.
but the pipes etc. are back in the corner connected to the radiator.
His comment is the radiator is there no one will see the cracks.....
Plus he is saying that since the house is so old & they didn't replace the joists etc.
Is the point not that they still should have put in caulk not grout??
He claims they always do jobs like this (what? wrong?)

Am I being unreasonable???
Yes, I want them to come out & correct this!

What do you think of this??

Let me ask you-- is this a baseboard radiator where the joint really can't be sen without getting on your hands and knees looking for it, or is it one of the old fashioned cast iron ones?

It is the old fashioned cast iron one.
It is just inside the bathroom to the right as you walk in the doorway. You can see the crack starting already.

I'd say it sounds like a personal problem for the GC. If it were baseboard, then I could see the GC being put out. 9 times out of 10, I won't grout that back joint AT ALL, much less let it crack. No one ever sees it, and leaving it open gives room for thermal expansion and contraction. If this is a cast iron radiator, though, that's wide open for people to see, and needs to be rectified (read that as cut out and caulked). Hopefully it wouldn't mean too much "deconstruction" to get at it, but whatever it takes, oh well. That's not your problem. You're paying for a satisfactory job, and if he can't give it to you, that's not your problem.

The house is old & the bathroom was redone in the 1960's
so it has the tile all around etc., I didn't want to (or have)invest a fortune in redoing the entire bathroom. BUT the floor was all cracked & had to be redone. Then they said it was lead pipes & suggested copper etc. so that jumped the cost up another $2950
I get the impression that he thinks that since I did not redo the entire bathroom that I am being too picky??
The total cost of the porcelain/ceramic tile floor, subfloor, new toilet, new vanity & top came to @$4950. (Plus the plumbing for the new copper pipes etc.was @$2950)So @$7900. BUT they didn't cut the vanity correctly & other screw ups, so I went & bought a vanity at Lowes for @$188., I had the tub reglazed for $300. then they chipped it a few places, the guy had to come back & fix....... They set the toilet over a cracked tile, he didn't understand why I was not happy about that. I guess he is sick of me BUT he has no idea how much I am really sick of him!
This started on 9/28 & he is still messing around......
He mentioned something today about well if I look in my shower I probably have cracked grout too! Or something stupid like that? I told him I didn't pay him almost $8000. to do anything in the shower???? What the heck does
that have to do with anything?
Maybe he thinks that because I am a female that I am just going to let this go?
Obviously he does not want to pay the plumber to come back out & remove that radiator & all that is involved with that...
BUT, IF he had done the job correctly in the 1st place .......

Bill THANKS so much for all your help & listening to me ramble on & on & on!!!

NO ONE has been as helpful as you!! You are priceless!

When I got home last night to look at this job the 1st thing I saw was that the caulk is much darker than the grout. The caulk is a really dark brown, the grout is more of a tan/beige shade. They are both TEC "summer wheat".
Now my question is, what the heck did he do to the grout to make it so much lighter? (I actually like the lighter color) I did not pick out the grout so I didn't know it wasn't the correct color when he was finished the floor??
Plus I liked the color so I didn't really think about it, until I saw the caulk! Could the guy have put too much water when mixing the grout, would that have made it lighter?? I have really had it with this guy............

That could be a million different things, from the manufacturer's fault to the installer's. It also could be that for whatever reason, the manufacturer may have made the caulking a shade too dark. I just had that happen to me on a job about 2 months ago. I had to Go back to Dal, and have them get a tube of caulking from a different batch sent out so I could recaulk it. Of course, I didn't have to go through the problems that this guy will have if he has to change the caulking, either. To find out which is right, you might want to take the grout chart and put it up against the grout, and then the caulking, ans wee which is closer to what the chart shows.

Oh, he is changing the caulk. It is way too dark & looks like crap. I am soooo tired of this, nothing they do turns out right..........
I am starting to think there is a curse on me or on the house.....
I know he really does not want to take out the radiator & fix that area. He said he would take $500 or $400 off the balance if I want?
If they take out the radiator, they will have to take out the vanity also, there is no way you can get in that corner unless you are super skinny rubber man.

I wanted this mess finished this week, but it is already Friday.
I am really thinking about just forgetting about the area behind the radiator (IF he takes off $500. that is!)
I am just at the point where I really cannot stand this anymore.
I went up to the tile place myself today after I talked to him & I have the chart at home.
The caulk is the correct color on the chart, it is the grout that he made lighter(which I like better anyway)
I just have to get a lighter color caulk that matches the color that they invented somehow! The guy at the tile place said maybe he put in too much water??

Do you see any major problems if I just forget about taking out the grout behind the radiator & just leaving as is?? (IF he is willing to take off the $500. that is)

Thanks Bill for being so patient & answering my p.i.t.a. questions!

I just got off the phone with the GC, he claims that on all the jobs they do - they do not caulk - they grout & they do not crack - only mine cracked..........

And now it is NOT $500. off the bill only $400 off(IF I tell him don't pull the radiator)

Personally, I don't feel like I owe him any money at all now........

(OH, the guy also left the little shipping legs on the vanity when he installed it......)

I don't care WHAT he says. If you'd like, I can post the actual spec that REQUIRES caulking at all changes in plane, and wherever tile abutts a dissimilar surface.

If he's dropping the amount he'll give you for not pulling the radiator, the answer to that is simple. Pull the radiator and do it right.

If you could post that it would be great or can you just tell me where to find that info & I'll print it out?!
He is just being a complete ass as far as I am concerned.

Thanks, Bil!

In the TCNA (Tile Council of North America) Handbook,

Movement Joint Design Essentials EJ171:

Use these details for Control, Contraction, and Isolation Joints

Gulidelines

>interior-- 20'-25' in each direction

>exterior-- 8'-12' in each direction.

>interior tilework exposed to direct sunlight or moisture-- 8'-12' in each direction

>where tilework abuts restraining surfaces such as perimter walls, dissimilar floors, curbs, columns, pipes, ceilings, and where changes occur in backing materials. Not at drain strainers.

>all expansion, control, construction, cold, and seismic joints in the structure should continue through the tile work, including such joints at vertical surfaces.

>joints through tilework directly over structural joints must never be narrower than the structural joint.

If he needs it I can copy the ANSI spec, too, but I guarantee you, it says exactly the same thing.

Thanks Bill!
I looked up The Tile Council fo NA yesterday & printed out some info.
I found under Technical Services: When do you use caulk versus grout
Like you said when there is a change in substrate or backing surface such as the joint between walks and floor and wall joint........

BUT then it goes on to say
Often, installers use grout in place of caulk for these reasons & it goes on blah blah

then the reasons why you shouldn't use grout.....blah, blah
CRACKING, structural problems etc.

"IN SUMMARY, caulk is the better choice - but the customer needs to understand its limitations."

I'll go back to their website & see if I can find more info.

It did mention caulk may grow mold more easily (except caulk treated with mildewcide) Is that something you apply after the caulk dries or is that a special caulk?

No matter what I say, this guy gives me a hard time.

I should have been on this site MONTHS before I even called anyone about a floor..........
AND I NEVER should have called this jerk.

What is ANSI?

I wish I had the old bathroom again & could start all over.........

THANKS a million for your help!

It did mention caulk may grow mold more easily (except caulk treated with mildewcide) Is that something you apply after the caulk dries or is that a special caulk?

That's something in the caulking already. I don't know about the others, but both Mapei and Laticrete have antimicrobial agents in their caulking.

What is ANSI?

American National Standards Institute. They are to the entire building industry what the TCNA is to the tile industry. Trust me-- your builder will be very familiar with who they are. Even if he doesn't follow their standards.

Thanks Bill!
I am wondering how much more abuse this tile can take?
The tile on the walls is from the 1960's. Only the floor is new.

What is involved for him to remove the wrong color (sanded) caulk - first it was the grout now the caulk?
He didn't do a very neat job of caulking so it is all over the place in some spots.

He's got to cut it out of the joint, and scrape it off the top of the grout in the adjoining grout joints. It doesn't take much (I just had to go through this about 2 months ago- they mislabeled a tube of caulking with a color that was close enough that I thought it was the right stuff!). It's more aggravation than anything else. Sounds to me, though, like it couldn't happen to a better person (your installer).

Well, he came back & took it out. BUT & this is my fault.
When he started he called me in to see if it was ok. Next to the really dark caulk & towards the toilet it looked ok, maybe it was the shadow or? but when they were done & I went up & looked - it looks much lighter..... ALL MY FAULT THIS TIME.
I cannot believe I did not check the #on the caulk before he started, they gave him the wrong one..........
I cannot win on this bathroom.
Either way I am done with him completely. I took the caulk back & they were nice enough to exchange it for the color we decided on.
We are just going to fix this ourselves! DO I have to take out all that caulk?? Or can I just run a bead of caulk over the lighter color?? I am just so tired of this bathroom at this point.

This guy is a real piece of work!

You want to remove a good part of it, so that the new caulking can anchor itself nicely in the joint.

Thanks Bill. We opened the caulk & put some on a paper to see how the color looks but not really the correct color.
The colors on chart certainly do match the actual color.

NOt really sure what to do now.......................

Keep in mind when the caulking first comes out of the tube, it's much lighter than once it dries.

Thanks Bill! After a day or more the color does look a litle darker. Looks better than what is on there.
Now here it comes, not sure why I am surprised. I kept saying that the caulk (& the grout that cracked) looked really sloppy to me, not professional. Now, I think maybe it was done that way on purpose??? My bf took out the caulk today & found grout (imagaine that, guess they didn't bother to take out all the grout)so he took out that & then he recaulked with the new color.
When I looked at it tonight, you would not believe how uneven the tiles are & one is right up to the wall! NOW I know why he caulked all over the place.....To make it look like there really was a space/joint there.
I cannot believe these people!

And, he never had any intention of calling the plumber back to pull the radiator. I honestly don't even care.

I think I will get my BF to put more caulk around ??
You would not believe how uneven this job is!
(then again, yes you would)

Is this going to cause alot of problems as in everything cracking later on???? I cannot afford to have someone come in & redo this entire mess...........

It shouldn't, although it's possible. If it's going to keep you up at night, what you can do is buy a 4 1/2" angle grinder and a continuous rim dry diamond blade, and CUT that joint evenly, with a shop vac following close behind to keep the dust down, and then recaulk it.

Thanks for all your help Bill!

Have a very Happy Thanksgiving!!

(I guess I should just be thankful that I have a bathroom & a house)