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petchia

architect vs. residential designer?

petchia
15 years ago

Is there much of a difference other than licensing? Should I expect to be able to pay a lot less for a residential designer? Even if they have worked for a larger, well known architect before going out on there own?

Any experience or advice at all in terms of residential designers would be great. For example, anecdotal information about the quality of designs versus an architect, etc.

Comments (52)

  • petchia
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One residential designer I am talking to has just left a major architectural firm where he was working on large projects for the main architect. He doesn't have the official license so I guess he cannot use the "architect" designation. I believe he went to college for architecture too. I will find out more.

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  • obwannab
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We've worked with 3 "designers". All 3 have really nice homes built around our local area. Most of the mid range to upper range spec/custom builders in our area use them.

    Two of them, while competent draftsmen, really didn't seem to have much creative flair. The plans were solid and would work, though we found them rather cookie cutter and boring.

    The third was awesome. His homes have been featured in many local design mags, and only the upper end custom guys use him.

    There is an organization that certifies building designers, although it is not a requirement here. It's linked below.

    Interestingly, the first two designers are not certificated by this organization. The third one is however, and he displays that fact on his plans.

    Honestly, this guy is so talented, I can't see why anyone would pay the extra 25K(that's what it would have cost us. We looked.) to go with a similarly talented architect.

    His rate runs .85 - 1.15 per square foot of living space, and he designs multi million dollar homes(not that ours is of that scope).

    Bottom line...like everything...it comes down to the individual in question.

    Here is a link that might be useful: AIBD Link

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For anyone who might be interested.

    In the US, a Bach. of Architecture is a graduate degree that requires a college degree plus 2 years in graduate school for a total of 6 years. Some schools offer a compressed 5 year program that allows graduate study during the fourth year of college (3+2=5). A Masters degree requires a total of 7 to 7 1/2 years.

    After getting a professional degree in architecture you have to work for an architect for 3 years and then pass the 27 1/4 hour NCARB architectural registration exam. The exam is comprised of the following 9 divisions:

    Multiple-choice Divisions:
    2.5 hrs, Pre-Design
    2.5 hrs. General Structures
    2.0 hrs. Lateral Forces
    2.0 hrs. Mechanical & Electrical Systems
    2.0 hrs. Building Design / Materials & Methods
    3.0 hrs. Construction Documents & Services

    Graphic Divisions:
    3.0 hrs. Site Planning
    5.0 hrs. Building Planning
    5.25 hrs. Building Technology

    The 2007 average pass rate for the very difficult Graphic Divisions is 67% including repeaters.

    At that point you can use the professional title "architect" and any descriptive terms derived from that title ("architectural", etc.). To maintain your registration/license, each year you must take 12 hours of NCARB approved professional courses and/or seminars and pass an exam. Two sources of these "continuing education" courses is RedVector.com and NCARB.com if you want to take some of them yourself.

    Some colleges offer an undergraduate degree usually called a Bach. of Science in Architectural Studies (or Environmental Science, etc.) which is not a professional degree (ie, it does not count toward the architectural registration requirement).

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There is such a person as a "Certified Professional Building Designer" and that sounds like a promising way for talented people to enter the residential design market without having to spend 6 or 7 years in school. However, I know nothing about this organization.

    The listed requirements are few and vague but you must submit 3 professional recommendations and 3 sets of "working drawings", pass a short exam and send the National Council of Building Designer Certification $350. I looked at their web site and took the sample exam to see how professional it was. I was not favorably impressed.

    One of the questions was:
    "What is the full name of the following organization: ASTM?"
    In 2001 ASTM changed its name to "ASTM International" but that answer was scored as "incorrect". I tried the original name, "American Society for Testing and Materials" but that was scored "incorrect". I tried adding "the" to the beginning, then adding "Inc." to the end. I finally tried leaving out the "and" which was scored as "correct". This outfit doesn't know the current or the former name of this organization.

    Another question was to be answered true or false: "Flammable and inflammable have identical meanings." I answered "true" and that was scored "incorrect" although these words are listed as synonyms in all standard English dictionaries and Oscar Wilde's once said they were the only two words in the English language that meant exactly the same thing. In chemistry "flammable" is sometimes used to describe easily combustible materials that are normally burned "intentionally" and "inflammable" is sometimes used to describe easily combustible materials that are normally burned "unintentionally", but in the construction industry where so many materials qualify for both terms, the words have the same meaning. In fact, the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language says: "Historically, flammable and inflammable mean the same thing." Would you say these words don't mean the same thing?

    There is a design question using the example of a small house section. It asks for the proper size of a ridge beam in a roof that has rafters and rafter ties at the attic floor line. The weight of the beam was to be ignored. Oddly the ridge beam is shown below where the rafters meet which is not normally acceptable by code. But, more importantly, there is obviously no need for a beam at this location since all of the load is being carried by the rafters down to the walls but all of the answer choices are LVL beams. The correct one was 14" deep. How would you size a beam that has no load on it?

    We did agree that a dishwasher was usually 24" wide and I correctly identified a gable and a gambrel roof.

    Until I find something about this organization that indicates greater professionalism than is shown on their web site, I will be skeptical about what its certification represents.

  • marthaelena
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    mighty,
    Are you AIA member?
    I am an AIA Associate.
    I completed my 3 years of IPS (training in an architectural company) Maybe some day I'll take the ARE.

    I also went to the link and It did not convinced me. It is the first time I hear about that institution.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was a member of the AIA for 25 years but they canceled my membership for being late meeting their continuing education requirements one year, as if I have nothing better to do than attend 12 hours of expensive seminars every year that I could teach better myself. They said they would reinstate me but would not credit me with my past membership which means I would never become FAIA. Ironically, my state now requires the same continuing education. I haven't missed the AIA; they're more interested in profits than the profession. Maybe the NCBDC is run by the AIA to make more money. It certainly appears to be worthless.

    I took the ARE in '71 when you had to bring in a drafting board and spend a whole day drawing a project by hand and there were no multiple choice questions. It should be a cakewalk these days not that I would want to take it again.

  • frog_hopper
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is a link that might be useful: AIBD Link

    They have a public listing of their membership. About half the states have exactly zero members. The rest have one to three members. Not exactly a rich resource of design professionals.

  • obwannab
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Guys,

    I wasn't trying to inflate the worth of the AIBD. It wasn't a criteria that came into play when we were deciding who to use. I just thought it might be helpful to someone.

    I'm sure there are times where hiring an architect would be the best way to go. Then again, hiring an architect is sometimes outside the financial capabilities of the home builder. It was out of ours. In that case, someone might find the services of a *good* designer to be just what they need.

    Within our budgetary constraints, hiring an architect(at least the one we wanted to use) would have been a a huge percentage of the project, and in at least our case, not the best use of our limited resources.

    There are good designers, and there are bad ones. I'd imagine the same could be said of architects. My wording in the post above was clumsy, and I'm sorry if I offended you architect types.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't have anything against inexpensive home designers but I am puzzled about how they can actually make a living. To make $40/hr billing at $1.00/s.f., a designer would have to complete a custom design and contract documents for a 4,000 s.f. house in 100 hours.

    So, it seems to me that these designers are either making far less than $40/hr or delivering far less than what is required to properly bid a job.

    I suspect that much of the savings from the use of prepackaged designs and/or incomplete documents is subsequently given to the builder in change orders or noncompetitive cost plus billing. Why are owners so stingy with designers and so generous with builders? Why focus such strong cost saving efforts on the small end of the job rather than where the real money is. A tight set of drawings should be able to save more than the cost to produce them.

  • stinkytiger
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi,

    Ultimately you will need to submit plans to the local town inspector. He will need a stamp from a licensed person. That person could be an engineer or architect.

    If you are working with a non-licensed person, just make sure you have someone willing to sign off on the plans so that the town inspector will let you build.

    I have actuall gone down that route. My architect, my brother, was not licensed for the USA. However he is very good. He worked for Sir Norman Foster, Foster Associates, and James Stirling. If you are going through Hong Kong Airport, he did all the shopping there. We hired an excelent engineer, David Kufferman, who signed off on the plans and advised on the structure, we had alot of cantilevers.

    Ultimately you need to assmble your team for the design. This could be just an architect, or a designer + engineer, or some other grouping. It depends a bit on what you want to build, and of course your budget.

    Hope it turns out great for you.

    All the best, Mike.

    P.S. My brother built and designed a hotel in Italy. He now runs it. I have included a link if you are interested in his work, or if indeed you want to stay there. His hotel is in the current issue of Conde Nast Traveller, UK edition.

    Here is a link that might be useful: hotel built in Italy

  • obwannab
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    MightyAnvil,

    I'm not so sure that cost savings is as insignificant as you might think. The architect we really wanted would have cost about 25K. These plans through the designer are going to run about $3,600. $21,400 on our size house, is not exactly small change. It pays for my roof, or brick, or concrete...

    I did interview another AIA Architect in my research, he was going to run about 10K+(base) but we didn't really care for his billing structure, nor did I find his designs anymore interesting or plans more detailed than some of the designers we spoke with.

    I researched some of the homes our designer had planned, and spoke with builder who had used those plans. I've seen the houses myself.

    Maybe it's sort of a regional thing, as I know of very few residential AIA Architects that are used here, even on very expensive million dollar+ builds. It seems up north, Architects are used more commonly than down here in TX.

    Again, if I was building some 10, 000 sq ft palace, I would go with an architect. And I would most likely be impressed with the service and professionalism. But for a modest 3300 sqft one story(plus a bonus) for my family, the numbers just didn't add up.

    At least down here, it seems that Architects, through their pricing structure, serve only one type client, the very wealthy. Which is fine, I wish I could be included in that group. Not being a part of that club, but still wanting to live in a nice custom home, the non architect designer was the only viable option.

  • obwannab
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mike,

    That hotel is amazing. I love the landscape, the style, the stone work, etc. I could never visit there, I wouldn't want to leave.

  • sniffdog
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you have a really good idea on what you want (perhaps a plan you found on-line) and all you want are modifications, then using a draftsman or residential architect to make those changes (and have a structural engineer review & stamp them) is a rationale approach and can save you a lot of money. Just make sure you understand what your local government requires for certification that the design is sound.

    The reason using existing plans can save you money (and why there is a growing market for these services and why "these people" make money ) is that you are leveraging a lot of time and energhy already done by someone else. Many of these plans (but not all  and you need to watch out for this) were created by a licensed architect, and these homes have been built before (something else you need to look into). That doesnÂt mean you can take the plans off the shelf and start building because local codes vary dramatically, and of couse you want to put your own touches into the plan.

    My original house plan was designed by licensed architect based in Texas, so there were modifications required to bring it up to Virginia code. The plan we picked was his number 1 selling plan, and the house plan was used many times to build homes. The detailed plans we recieved were good enough to get a building permit in Texas - very detailed plans and stamped. By starting with a plan that was very close to what we wanted, we completed our entire design for $15K. This is at least 2 to 3 times less than what it would have cost to design from scratch.

    A lot of people on this forum have gone this route to build their dream homes successfully. It doesnÂt mean that you will have a lot of change orders either. We initiated 2 minor changes that required no structural mods  and that is t really the key to keeping costs for changes down. You can move interior non-load bearing walls and change many of the finishes without impacting the integrity of the design. Of course you do have to pay for changing your mind, but these changes need not be excessive in cost. Funny thing about our build. There were 3 other changes that had to be made to correct mistakes that our ARCHITECT made. And I drew the updates to the plans and faxed them to the builder and architect to incorporate into the drawings.

    If you cannot find an existing plan to start from, or you truly want a design from scratch plan  then you might be better off with a licensed architect who has a solid reputation for building the type of home you are looking for. That would probably cost a lot more than the approach above, but in this case be worth the money.

  • stinkytiger
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Obwannab,

    Glad you like it. There are some interesting stories that he has when he was building it. He wanted it also to be a show case for his work just in case some one wants to hire him. It took him about 5 years to build, mostly doing the work himself with his wife.

    The strange yellow shape swing thing on the web site is from his professional CAD/CAM program that he uses. I cannot remember the brand, though he did tell me once. The doors you see are custom made by local craftsman and only cost $US 1,000. I was amazed at the price. Costs are much lower in Italy! Hence the huge amount of tavertine used....

    This is a bit off topic about building, but he is having fun running the hotel but it is hard work. So far he has had a 100% satisfaction rating. How can I be so sure, apart that he is my brother :) .... well he has been open since May. And as yet he has not got a credit card system there, nor an itemized billing system. So when a guest checks out he/she is presented with a bill with essentially one number, the total. On the bill is a bank and a bank account number and the guest is asked to wire them the money to settle the bill once they get home. So far everyone has paid!

    Hope you can visit one day.... maybe now that the EURO has fallen a bit against the $US....

    All the best, Mike.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There appears to be some common misunderstandings about professional practice in the US.

    In the US all buildings except one & two - family homes (and in some cases townhouses) require an architect's stamp. However, an engineer's stamp might be required if there are structural elements in the project that are not described in the residential building code. There are a few communities that require an architect's stamp for all building types.

    An engineer's stamp can be substituted for the required architect's stamp only if the architectural work is "incidental" to the engineering work. In other words, an engineer would be expected to stamp the structural drawings for a hotel but could not stamp the architectural drawings. An engineer's stamp alone might be accepted for a building with little or no human occupancy. These laws have a lot to do with safety, ie. egress, fire separation/protection, etc. and that is the job an an architect. Architects and engineers cannot practice each other's profession although in some states more overlap is allowed.

    It should be very difficult to get a design professional to "sign off" on another person's work. By definition, stamping a drawing indicates legally that the stamper drew it or it was directly supervised in his/her office. Even if someone is willing to take such an unnecessary risk for less than a full fee, his/her insurance may not cover subsequent damage or loss from the work. Also a professional's liability insurance premium is based on the total construction cost of the work, not the fees. Design professionals cannot afford to be responsible for projects for which they don't get a full fee.

  • marthaelena
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    obwannab,
    I love your brother design!
    We plan to go to Italy some day and I saved the link! It looks llike is nott too far from Tuscany, one of the areas that we want to visit.

    On the other hand, I am sorry that I said that the institution did not convinced me: The thing is, I really did not check into that more than 5 minutes so what I am going to know.

    In the end, we agree in something: If there is a lot of money involved, an atchitect is the best way to go.

    I prefer a talented home designer or a drafting person that an architec that might know all te codes but with not sensibility.

    ...

    Mighty,

    Can you call a person who studied architecture in another country an Architect?

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mike

    My wife and I stayed in Panzano in Chianti and Torgiano last summer. Maybe we'll try your brother's hotel next time.

  • stinkytiger
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Mighty Anvil,

    Yes please do so. I hope you like it. I think this weekend he has the features editor of a UK magazine getting married there. She booked the whole hotel, and fingers crossed, I hope it goes well.

    His first guest was an American surgen and his wife. They were a lovely couple. My brother and his wife had spent all day long getting ready. They also roped in all their Italian neighbours to help. When the couple arrived, my brother and his wife were exhausted. The the couple wanted dinner .... panic ... it took a little while because my brother had this state of the art professional kitchen, and he was in the kitchen reading the instruction manual on how to light the cook top burners .... you will be glad to know that he also now has a professional cook who just came back from the US. The cook I think had worked with Gordon Ramsay. You will be glad to know that the American surgen couple came back for a further visits, I think the surgen is a consultant, and travels the world with his wife giving medical lectures.

    The other story I like is that the whole hotel is tiny, just seven rooms and very informal. My brother who is short of time, still wears the T-shirts that he wore when he built the hotel, complete with holes. I think the informality is what make people happy with their stay. One familly had had a little boy who was seven. Half way through dinner he poped his head around the kitchen door and asked it he could help. And he did and did a great job too, serving his family and other guests!

    Warmest regards, Mike.

  • obwannab
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Marthaelena,

    As much I would like to say such talent runs in my family, the credit belongs to StinkyTiger's brother.

    Mike,

    My only experience visiting Italy, has been in the Lago Maggiore area in Nothern Italy. Absolutely stunning.

    You've got me contemplating our vacation next summer. The first big vacation in a while, and the first one where our kids will be old enough to leave with the Grandparents.

    How lucky is your brother to live in a place like that? :) I just keep looking at the website.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The professional title of "architect" is granted by each state in the US and therefore its use is technically limited to that state but as long as you are not offering your services for hire you can get away with calling yourself an architect when you are only registered to practice in another state or country.

    If someone asks you to build in another state you should get your request into NCARB for a reciprocal registration ASAP. In some states you must get the stamp before you can even make a proposal and in others you can use another state's stamp for one small project.

    Le Corbusier could not practice as an architect in the US (was described as the "designer" on the job sign at the Carpenter Center at Harvard) but no one would say he wasn't an architect. Of course, he's dead.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    obwannab

    I understand your choice completely. What I don't understand is how anyone could produce a true custom design and a set of construction documents complete enough to properly protect the owner in only 100 hours. I'm pretty fast and I've never done it in less than 300 hours. I could probably do a small house with undemanding clients in 200 hours.

    I think the bottom line is that in addition to a lower hourly fee, a home designer must be providing an abbreviated set of contract documents which inevitably exposes the owner to more risk and therefore more cost. I believe this must account for half or more of the design fee savings.

    In other words, I would think a competent home designer should be charging $2/s.f. and putting more information on the drawings. An additional $4,000 may seem like a lot of money in the early stages but it doesn't take much of a slip up in the documents to add that much to the construction cost.

    Instead of thinking of the additional fee as representing a roof you might think of it as representing lower bids and fewer change orders that might pay for more than a roof.

  • jodierd
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We found the house designer we used from a recommendation from an extremely well-respected local builder.
    I designed the house and then we went through about three rounds of drawings to get it right.
    When we started this process we knew nothing and I was worried about finding the right people: designer and builder. Word of mouth is, once again, the best bet.
    Our house is over 5,200 sf and our plans cost $4317. I gave him a very complete plan to start with. He charged $50 an hour. He does other things like develops his own projects. This is something he enjoys doing.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    jodied

    Did your documents contain window and door schedules, finishes, framing plans, lighting plans, and a full specification or did you rely on the builder to provide that information?

    Did you bid the job competitively or negotiate a contract with a builder?

  • sniffdog
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    well done jodie. it just proves that if you are resourceful enough and get the right people, you don't need to spend gobs of money on a design and can put more of your hard earned cash into building the house.

    Many of the on-line plans are also offered with CAD files, in a standard format compatible with professional CAD software used by architects. You might spend a little more on the CAD file but once the designer has that file, making changes can be done very quickly.

    Before you purchase the CAD file of a house design on-line, make sure that your designer has the right software AND version that can read it.

    The stone age way of getting to a buildable set of plans is long gone thanks to the Internet.

    If you are interested in staying at a winery in the heart of Tuscany - see the link below. This place is owned by an American couple and they rent out the main house (very nice) during most of the year. We stayed there in 2003 and it was fantastic. Within minutes of the world's best gelato and wine!

    http://www.lemiccine.com/

    (pronounced LE METCH -IN - AY)

  • marthaelena
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mighty
    I think there is a missing link somewhere in the whole concept.

    How can a person who studied architecture for several years and got an architect title (or diploma) not be called an architect?

    In that case the universities or colleges should create another word for the title.

    I underestand that AIA wants to protect the people and they are concerned with safety and that is why they require the several years in college, the 3 years internship and the tests (ARE) but maybe they should call everybody who went to college to study architecture, an Architect and the ones with a licence: a Licenced Architect.

    I was an Architect until I came to USA and I am not in this forum to get jobs or profit. I am here because I love design in general, I like to help and because it is fun!

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're confusing the study of architecture with the professional practice of it. Universities can teach architectural history, design, and building systems, and the AIA can do whatever it is that they do (its really only a professional club) but neither can grant the title of "architect", only a state legislature can do that. Those who practice the profession of architecture are regulated just like lawyers and doctors in order to protect the interest public. A graduate of a law school can't be called a lawyer until he/she has passed a state bar exam.

  • rusty105
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Marthaelena,
    Maybe I can help explain. It is similar to the Professional Engineer License, I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering, several years experience (the License requires at least 4yrs experience) and still have to take 2 exams to get my PE license. First one I passed last October, and I will be taking the second one in April '09. Until the licensing board accepts all my experience, education, and passing exam scores I CAN NOT legally call myself a Professional Engineer. College education only gets you so far, then real world experience is needed. The 2 exams I must pass are called "Fundamental of Engineering" (usually taken not long after graduation, and sometimes during your last semester), and "Principals and Practice of Engineering"(usually taken after the required number of years experience). It varies by state when you can take the tests, and when the experience "clock" starts but the end goal is the same. When you Stamp and Sign a set of plans, it is your responsibility to the public that they are safe, and you have done your best to ensure that. And to my knowledge there is no statue of limitations on the work. But I have to check that.
    And yes we still have to take continuiing education to keep our license in force.

  • worthy
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've always used architectural technologists, who have reworked subdivision plans. Then I've had an engineer review and stamp the plan. But this is not a system evidently in place elsewhere.

    The technologist I used most often was moonlighting while he was a partner in a major architectural firm.

  • sniffdog
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    worthy - can you comment on the cost savings (and any risks you see) by taking the route you speak of.

    A statement was made earlier in another post that "much of the savings from the use of prepackaged designs and/or incomplete documents is subsequently given to the builder in change orders or noncompetitive cost plus billing. Why are owners so stingy with designers and so generous with builders? "

    It seems logical to me that leveraging existing plans and making mods (using a technologist or draftsman) would lead to large cost savings to develop the plans. Further - this method doesn't necessarily mean a lot of change orders either. The statement made by the other poster implies that if you don't pay gobs of money on your plan (by having a licensed architect create it) you will have a bad design requiring a lot of change orders.

    It would be great to have a builder's perspective on this.

    Thanks

  • rileysmom17
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Marthalena -

    You could refer to yourself as an "architect by training" or as "having a degree in architecture and having worked in the field". In the US certain terms have an implicit component meaning "licensed to practice for payment in this field". There can be a lot of peculiar professional etiquette involved. For example, an Italian doctor of medicine who has residing in the US who was not licensed in the US and had not actually practiced medicine since moving to the US is really not expected to introduce himself simply as "Dr. Italia" or "I'm a heart surgeon". It would be considered more forthright to add some additional comments about "trained in Italy", and/or "working as a pharmacy consultant in the US". This is to help make a distinction between his (important and valid) educational credentials and his current professional status. In many circumstances where professionals meet, there may be issues that are of business only to those with licenses and active practices in the region which are not appropriately discussed with others who are "outside" the organizational structure, although having the same educational attainments.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    An "architectural technologist" is a profession that is recognized in Canada and perhaps the rest of the UK. The description and the practice is not legal in the US. The fee for reviewing engineering work on one project is sometimes the same as if the engineer had done the work because of liability issues and insurance carrier restrictions but they are sometimes overlooked if the relationship is ongoing.

    Houses today are not as simple to design and build as they were 50 years ago. The increasing need for energy conservation, moisture control and durability has been further complicated by the introduction of new materials and systems with confusing and contradicting marketing information put out by the manufacturers and self-serving "industry organizations". Of course slow to change building codes are of little help with these constantly changing issues that vary so much with location.

    In my opinion, drawing up floor plans and elevations and relying on a builder to provide a negotiated fixed price with the missing design information covered by Allowances or just left to the builder's best judgment is no longer a wise or cost effective project delivery method.

    I am not saying that a designer with no formal training cannot provide contract documents adequate to define the work well enough to protect the owner but I do question anyone's ability to do that in 80 hours for a custom designed house.

    As for a complete set of drawings saving the owner money, in my experience, only the wealthy can afford to enter into a negotiated agreement with a builder with incomplete documents. Less wealthy owners are better served by a complete set of documents bid competitively (although I would rather not have to provide such detailed drawings). I have found the savings made possible by this method to be many times the cost of the additional documents that I provide. Using a good home designer could save even more money.

    As far as professional moonlighting is concerned, architectural firms in the US generally forbid it because their liability insurance carriers require that they do so. That means that the person moonlighting could lose their job if caught. I know a partner in a firm who was given the choice of giving all of his moonlighting fees to the firm or resigning. If you use such services do it carefully.

  • worthy
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    sniffdog asked:can you comment on the cost savings (and any risks you see) by taking the route you speak of.

    As MA points out, an architectural technologist is not a recognized standardized profession in the US.

    But my system has worked out fine as far as I'm concerned. The plans that I've modified are from leading tract builders who invest a lot of time and money into devising plans that are not only popular but are economical to build.

    By the time the home is finished, the "original" and the "copy" often vary so much there's little obvious resemblance.

    Of course, as with any trade, technologists vary in skill.

    In one case, we had completed framing a technologist-drawn plan when it was suddenly apparent that there was nothing much holding up one half of the second floor of the 3,800 sf house. And that was after it was passed by a plans examiner and the on-site municipal inspector! In retrospect, working with a new AT, who was a partner in an architectural firm, we discovered other less than optimal solutions he had drawn. Since then, I always have the plans vetted by a structural engineer. I don't know US prices. But here, I'm being charged no more than $1,000.

    I'm considering an architect for the next project who is widely used by luxury builders. You just tell him the size and style and he has a number of established plans you can choose from.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I can see how these approaches could work for off-the-shelf designs or for spec houses but my practice is for completely custom original designs tailored to the needs of the homeowner's family and the site. A stock plan would be useless even as a starting point and the plans given to me by owners usually just slow down the initial design phase and increase my fee. I have never had a client prefer their initial design to the one I proposed although it sometimes requires a bit of tact to get them to let go of it. No one should be surprised that there is a benefit to having designed buildings for 40 years.

  • sniffdog
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    worthy - thanks for the response. In my case, had we built to the original plans there would have been issues too. Many of the changes we made were structural because the dead and live load requirements in N. VA are much more stressing than in Texas, the location of the original architect. We also added a basement - in Texas slabs are the norm - that drove other structural mods.

    We saved a lot of money by starting with a great plan and then making it our own. We have looked at pictures of actual houses that used the original plan and compared them to ours - you can't tell that they were from the same plan.

    As far as the comments about "I can see how these approaches could work for off-the-shelf designs or for spec houses" - it's just not reality. It might work that way in MightyVille, but not in my case and others who post on this forum. My wife and I are not wealthy and we are very careful with how and where we spend our money. The contract we entered into with the builder was firm fixed price for the structure. The allowances covered excavation, well, septic, and finish materials. The builder had a lot of input into the design process and we were very thankful for that.

    The plans we purchased on-line were very detailed - inlcuded roof and framing plan, electrical plan - even detailed the built ins. My experience with looking for the plans on-line is before you buy, talk to the people who created the designs (not the store fronts who sell them) and make sure you know what you are buying. Our plan was created by a well known architect in Texas, so we felt comfortable that we were starting with something proven.

    We built a custom home on a mountainside lot, designed to fit right into the surrounding forest. It is not a spec home and it isn't an off-the-shelf design. It is a custom home - complete with the latest technology for energy efficiency and comforts.

    There clearly are situations where a start from scratch plan is needed and worth the investment. There are also cases where leveraging existing proven plans is the right way to go. The path taken has a lot to do with how well the client understands what they want. It seems to me that architects who recognize that both paths are viable for custom home building will have a lot more to offer clients than those who insist that there is only one path.

  • jodierd
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Mightyanvil,

    Yes, it did include window and door schedules. I had already put the sizes in the design, but along the way we rethought and refined them.
    I prepared spreadsheets of finishes room-by-room.
    We're working with the electrician on the lighting plan.
    We didn't bid the job competitively. he told us his rate is $50 and expected the toal price would be $5,000. Based upon the glowing recommendations we had had of him, we felt comfortable and are pleased so far.
    What bewilders me and still does, is that people have told me time and time again that they have drawn soemthing out virtually on a napkin and handed it to a builder and he has built it. And that they haven't chosen important things like shingles until they get the call that the roofer will be there the next day. I guess the many book manuscripts I've handed to editors have taught me a lot of skills that are applicable elsewhere!

  • terrypy
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In our part of town an architect and a residential designer are two different things. The architect designs the structure and the designer is the one that helps to design the non-structural, i.e. lighting, ambiance, backsplashes, counter materials, colors, etc.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    To separate the design of the overall house from the design of the interior risks losing the continuity of the architect's design concept for the house and many elements can easily fall between the cracks. Be very cautious about using this approach. In my experience, it is wise to review interior design ideas with the architect even if other design consultants are used.

  • divadeva
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We hired an architect. We'd seen one of his projects, a Palladian style, and it was beautiful. We were a bit concerned that it came in 2x over cost, but accepted his response that it was due to the construction company.
    We were later glad that we'd hesitated over his design price ($40K) and had agreed to a limited preliminary contract. He spent $16K in hours, tried to teach us architectural spatial concepts, rejected what we wanted in a house (unsophisticated to desire a mud room or laundry or a kitchen larger than a 8' galley). He used a "divide and conquer" technique with us that had us constantly arguing with each other. Two of the three couples he worked for previously divorced during their projects, I suspect he was the cause. What he gave us for that money would have cost...2x normal to build. Imagine that, he had a small-print clause in his contract that his fee was 15% of the final build cost (which would have been a cool 1Mil instead of $500K). We had nothing to show for our money, even his site plan was completely wrong, inventing flat where there was a hill and conveniently ignoring watershed setback regulations. he still owes us money, 3 years later, for deposits we gave him.
    We then used a highly regarded residential designer. For $10K we have a gorgeous design exactly and the kitchen can be used by 2 cooks, (yes, a laundry and mudroom) and complete construction docs. My husband and I sometimes pull out the architects' drawings for the "laugh factor". It beats crying.

  • mlo1
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I utilized a proffesional designer for my homes design. I believed I was saving a bunch of money over what I had beeen told to expect from an architect. I was nieve to the industry as a whole and specifically drawing differences from one to another. This was to be my first solo built house.

    The design for permit was for 2400 sq.ft. of mid level finished living space and was offered for $10K. Engineering for that design (seperate firm) was $5K. Drawings went through the municipality and recieved a permit. Drawing errors, clarifications, site visits, phone calls, lighting/electrical help were billed by the Designer for another $4K. At this point I was into the Designer for $19K.

    The drawing/design mistakes affected the roof trusses/framing and cost me another $5K in wasted materials and misbuilt trusses. Directly because of this I lost 2 months of summer build time and created a negative environment with the bank. This created a HUGE hardship on the project I cannot attatch a dollar amount to. I am literally still trying dig my self out from under. I am currently 6 months over on build time and forced to pay out of pocket as I go. Just in dollars alone I am now into the Designer $24K.

    The Designer has no legal obligation to me or the design he created. Once I refused to pay his hourly fee anymore he was free to wash his hands of the job and did so. My build is fortunatley not suffering in it's quality only because I have fought to not let it. But a fight it has been. That, the frustration, and the extra time (maybe two years) has got to be worth something.

    I would have easily saved money hiring an architect looking back. More than likely the home would be done instead of half done. The original bank loan would have sufficed instead of it being called and having to tap into our retirement. Me and my lovely and gracious wife would be having holiday meals in our own home this year (in her mind thats worth more than the house) instead of hopefully next.

    Some very competent and experienced people have willingly spent thier time enlightening the possibles to those of us who are ready to undertake these projects. I just wanted chime in and say "listen to them". I would never consider undertaking such a project again with out a proffesional which in this case would be an Architect.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The suggestion that couples you don't even know divorced because of using your architect and that the terms of your agreement where not known to you is ridiculous. If you chose a bad architect or failed to read your contract just say so and spare us the hysterics. There are unqualified people everywhere in all walks of life.

    With the possible exception of the compensation clause, the most important clause in a professional design services contract is the termination clause. It should allow for 7 days written notice and only payment for the work performed. If an architect is not serving your needs you should find one who will.

  • divadeva
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh Puleese Mightyanvil, if I sound hysterical to you, you sound defensive...let me guess, you're an architect? I believe that this request by petchia included a request for anecdotal experiences. As a matter of fact I'd known and liked the architect for 5 years, have friends who knew his previous clients, and have a sound basis for my "suspicion" that he contributed to their divorce because I asked around after our dismal experience. You wouldn't know that, though, because you attacked without knowing any of the details.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gossip isn't relevant anecdotal evidence. Read your contract and switch architects if you're not happy with him.

  • Ron Natalie
    15 years ago

    We're quite happy with our architect. The only issues we had were the subcontracted engineering firm (and he's not happy with them either) who were idiots. Fortunatley I know the electrical code and went out and bought the plumbing code, but still we ran into stupidities they caused that I didn't catch before construction (like them drawing the plumbing and vents for the the washer and drier backwards from the architects layout and any sane person (HE washers always have to be on the left of the drier).

    Fortunately, I work carefully with the subs and we fixed the HVAC stupidities and I'd already submitted two pages of complaints on the electrical that they had to revise.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Many HE washers have front loading doors that only open to the left but some have reversible doors, some have doors that open downward, and some are top loading. Many dryer doors open to the right but some open to the left, some can be reversed and some open downward.

  • divadeva
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    mightyanvil, I notice that you have chosen to go with a personal attack, rather than addressing the issues I brought up: that our architect was difficult to work with and did not give us any real vale received for the money we spent with him. There is, in fact, a name for the response you gave : ad hominum. to quote Wikipedia, or any English textbook, "An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject." This attack is commonly used in politics.
    Now, my comment about architects was only meant to express my personal experience with using one; I did not intend to stamp the entire breed as dismissive and belittling. However, you are an example of your profession...petchia, you asked if there were any differences??

  • mlo1
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    divadeva...With all due respect I see no personal attacks being directed toward you. You made some negatively worded insinuations that certainly were of no value to the converstaion and were called on it. This forum is very fortunate to have the input of a few very passionate proffesionals. They consistantly donate thier time to help advise, teach and comment to those of us that come hear and feel fortunate to recieve it. Please refrain from allowing anything that may be quickly worded or short in response to being interpretated as a negative. What I see is little mincing of words and simple statements of fact by a gentlemen who has freely added a great deal of both knowledge and help to any who have asked.

  • rickbalkins_gmail_com
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As a building designer in Oregon (not an Architect).

    Most states have laws that requires projects to be designed by a registered architect/engineer except for when it falls into the exemption status. These buildings are called "Exempt Buildings" and those that don't are called "Non-Exempt Buildings".

    As a general rule, exempt projects do not require an architect or engineer to stamp but can.

    To answer the person who asked how come someone who is not licensed can't be called an architect. Sure they can be called it but they can not refer to themselves or portray themselves under current law where the title use refers to a licensed person.

    Historically, the term architect means ANYONE who designs buildings and the practice of designing buildings is called architecture.

    When these Architect Acts were enacted, (in Oregon - in 1919), the act required that people are registered in order to use the title. In the beginning, those who have been practicing for an X number of years (usually 10 years) prior to the enactment were grandfathered in and can be licensed without examination but just by applying with proof of practice prior to then.

    Of course, for most places, no one can now be grandfathered in. The laws were enacted with a limited scope of exemption. This created a parallel universe of unlicensed designers who uses alternative titles to Architects and those who are licensed. This is a responsibility of unlicensed designers to ensure the public that they are not licensed designers.

    However, our practices on these exempt buildings are often the same as those who are licensed. If you were to call a spade a spade then building designers are simply unlicensed architects (IF YOU USE the older pre-Architect Act enactment meaning) but we just can't use the title in practice or advertisement. It's politics. Period. I rather not fight with Oregon Board of Architect Examiners while gaining myself several $5,000 fines. It only makes sense not to fight and argue when I can use title that technically is a synonym. It makes common sense that if you are licensed as an Architect in a particular State to use the title Architect.

    Now to the message regarding $1/sq.ft. design fee. If you think about the work, if it takes you 100 solid hours to work on one single project then you are slow. Especially, if your work is prescriptive. In the old days of early 1900s, we had this test where you have to be able to design a building (example: a city hall) in 24 hours to get licensed. Then again, most designers are basically charging $20 an hour and only working on the design about 4 hours and get the design completed in 5-8 weeks. Working on two projects at once. I usually work on the order of $1-4 per sq.ft. on a tabulated fee table based on various sq.ft. ranges.

    Then again, if I am involving different level of work and project sophistication. I work anywhere from 8 to 12 hours in a day and work anywhere from 5 to 7 days. So who really cares about the hourly rate since I don't work off that.

    It depends on project load. If you know the code and have basic door schedules, window schedules already templated, it won't take long to modify the template and insert it. Especially if you are using CAD. Most doors will have the same number of components for the door type. After awhile, it's pretty much already setup with minor adjustments.

    Rick Balkins, Building Designer

  • mdmomof3
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have worked with both on the same project. Originally went with architect (builder I ended up not using). Cost $1/ sqft of drawn space (including patio, deck, garage, driveway, etc). That was his discount. So it would have been about 10k. Things went south when he didnt design within out budget and refused to make any more modifications without a $5k deposit to the builder ( we didnt even have a final plan yet for the builder to give us a quote from). Needless to say, we parted ways and we paid $515 for prelim drawings.
    Moved on to another builder who used a designer. She started from the prelim drawings, reconfigured and drew up a set of plans. Made additional changes and sent us the bill. $775.00 for 15.5 hours. Engineer signed off and the framing is done. No disasters yet...
    Basically, I felt that we needed a large home that wasnt too complicated to fit into our budget. The designer was able to do that. If we had a more complicated vision of our dream home, I would have found another architect.

  • rickbalkins
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is what I propose for construction project budgeting and recommend to home owners to have established and secured before beginning construction in order for a relatively smooth project flow without risking having to find money on a last minute notice when there is a cost over-run (where cost exceeds the design/construction budget). The total budget would have set aside some cushion. It is stressful to find money when you are already well into construction. There is NO real advance notice of a cost over-run.

    Design/Construction budget
    -------------------------------------
    Estimated Cost per square footage x number of sq.ft. footage times 1.3333333 (this factors in an amount for estimated contractor costs) plus annual inflation factored in. 5% annually. If completion of construction is estimated to be 5 years from now then 25%. So, I factor a multiplication of 1.25 after getting the non-inflated based Design/Construction Budget.

    Estimated Design Cost (current cost) Cost per sq.ft. x sq.ft. (RS Means cost estimation is a standard means for calculating that.)

    Estimated Design Cost (with inflation) = Estimated Design Cost (current cost) x 1+(annual inflation rate x number of years). 5% = 0.05 in the calculation. Average Annual inflation rate equal 5% per year.

    Proposed Construction Cost Budget is 75% of Design/Construction Budget (including inflation)

    Total Budget is Design/Construction Budget x 1.5 (50% contingency added for over run.

    This is just some of the math I used for over all project budget and design.