My understanding is that woodchips only rob N from the plants if they are mixed into the soil. When they are used on top as a mulch, they slowly build the soil. I agree that a few years isn't enough to have a complete picture. But, so far, I haven't seen any issues. It's definitely easier to get at these apples than the ones my parents and grandparents grew. Each had 1 tall tree which produced wormy apples. My great uncle had better cared for trees, but they were also tall and necessitated a ladder or pole picker for most of the fruit. Not that you can't keep a standard pruned low, but I think you could spend more time training the large tree to stay low and very wide (basically a big espalier) than it would take to grow dwarf spindles in a row. I think there is more potential for issues with high density peaches and plums (vs apples), as I don't think there are any widely available dwarfing rootstocks.

It's interesting you mention Europe Drew. Some of the high density systems did originate there. However apparently many cider orchards in Europe still use low density systems, even in new plantings. There is currently some discussion of this very topic on another forum I follow called "Apple Crop". It's geared toward commercial production. One of the posters mentioned his trip to Europe in the context of cider tree density. I do understand the reasoning behind designing cherry plantings for harvesting equipment. As you know, cherries require a huge amount of labor to hand harvest. They have some mechanically assisted apple harvesters and I admit spindle systems are conducive to that type of harvesting. It's unlikely peaches will be machine harvested in the foreseeable future. Some have experimented with peach plantings to use mechanical thinners (which is where the real labor is in a peach orchard) but I don't think anyone can draw any sweeping conclusions at this point. I should have mentioned in my previous post, that while high density apple systems do obtain more yield per land area, those yields are highly dependent on the appropriate rootstocks for the planting density. The spindle systems Dr. Robinson mentions use very dwarfing rootstocks. More vigorous rootstocks in the same high density planting would have lower yields than a low density planting. The vigorous trees would require too much pruning, turning the trees into "wood machines", as Scott has described. I just want to mention this to prevent someone new from getting the impression crowded trees automatically = more fruit. I would also mention some of the very dwarfing rootstocks require a high level of management and are not at all forgiving of the frequent mistakes of beginners (or even mistakes of veterans). Dr. Robinson glosses over this with the flippant comment, "You have to be able to grow trees." Yeah, sometimes that's easier said than done, even with trees that aren't delicate (as anyone who has grown any amount of tree fruit can attest).

Scott: Thanks for the input. I knew you'd have something helpful to say. I was thinking one ft apart and slope each tree about 30 degrees alternating each tree to form a V. I'd let them get about 8ft tall with a 6ft spread at the top. In Australia I believe this is called a tatura trellis. I believe I could keep these under control and productive top to bottom. If I went to this system for all the stonefruit I'd have four rows of 36 trees each in an area 32ft by 36ft. I really think this sounds like a great idea. I'd plan on replacing one row each year. So that would be one yr to establish and three yrs production before replacment. I'd like to get an agreement with Dave Wilson Nursery to test about 30 of Zaiger's advanced selections each year. This would be the perfect system to do that. I could find new cultivars for greenhouse production and demonstrate their favorite theme; high density home orchard production. I'd pay big bucks to get on their advanced testing list. When I was in CA I tasted about 20 of their best new fruits each week all summer. Have wanted to get in on that ever since. The Fruitnut

My first year in FL was in Orlando, I remember having to scrape frost off my windshield to drive to work one morning. The next 8 years were in Gville with a few frosts now and then, on one morning it was sleeting so heavy it was accumulating on the backs of a herd of Brahmas I drove past. Boy did those beasts look miserable! Don't remember any frozen pipes but thought about it more than once. Pn: the green stuff does take a while to break down as it is not too uncommon for the sandy soils to dry out for long periods during the dry season, add to that a lack of N laying around and there sits the material.