Give me a little more info, and I'll tell you what he's talking about. What does your small job consist of?

Oh sorry. I've posted before, but it's a shower enclosure and halfway up walls in a small bath. Simple ceramic field tile. Let me know if I forgot anything and thanks.

Okay-- that's what I thought (the shower). What he's talking about is if things are done improperly-- that is to say, as they were before 2000, and how many still do it today, then he's right. Water can, and will, whick up the cement board. How that happens is when three wrong things all come together. First, there's no gravel or anything else around the weepholes at the base of the drain to keep them from clogging up, so that water doesn't back up into the pan. Secondly, there's no pitch (AKA preslope) UNDER the pan liner, so water just sits in the bottom of the pan, rather than going down through the weepholes. Third, the cement board is sunk too far into the mud bed, so that once the water gets to the bottom of the cement board, it sucks it up like a straw, until it goes up over the top edge of the pan membrane and shows what resembles a leaking shower pan.

All these three things need to come together in order for this to happen, and all three things are improper installation techniques. So, if this guy's afraid that the cement board's going to whick water, then he doesn't know how to put together a proper shower pan.

Personally, I don't care for Denshield. To me, it's just a new twist on and old idea (greenboard, but with a plastic skin, instead of green paper). But I know alot of pros, and I mean guys with solid reputations, who will swear by the stuff.

I should have mentioned the shower is over a tub. He thinks it will ensure a better job with the small 3 x 6 tiles. Just wanted to know if this will stand the test of time. I believe any screw holes need to be sealed as well, yes? Thanks for any more input.

We took a belt-and-suspenders approach to the tile in our only bathroom.

After much research, I figured the most overkill-but-still-somewhat-reasonable approach was one of two methods:
Durock with RedGard (or similar)
OR
Wedi board.

It would seem to me that mold is always something to NOT feed, so greenboard (and the like) was off my list, even in the non-shower area. (We have a small bath and EVERYTHING gets wet and steamy in small baths when you shower. Seriously, is the steam materially different two feet from the shower-over-tub than it is IN the tub area? I never thought so, but clearly the people that do this for a living think differently.) When water hits Durock, at least mold isn't one of the issues.

This is a very different view, though, if you have wood studs. (We have metal and concrete.) If I understand it correctly, wood studs touch the Durock (or whatever) which can absorb water. The water doesn't destroy the Durock BUT does rot the wood studs.

And I remember reading that some of these new products are instantly violated as soon as you put a screw in to fasten them to the studs. Can't remember exactly which products that sentence applied to, though.

The RedGard (or similar...I think Laticrete makes one that is well-regarded) would have been because I think vapor barriers are just a good idea - even if code doesn't require it - and no vapor barrier was installed on a wall that we couldn't fix. Cheap insurance, and does no harm, as far as I could tell.

In the end, we went with Wedi board. It did everything I wanted it to, AND was light enough that I could pick it up myself. (Durock is wicked heavy. And dirty. And crumbly. And, at least to me, hard to cut.)

The Wedi was a dream to work with; it cut easier than drywall with a utility knife. It is stiffer than Durock or drywall and helped stiffen our metal-stud walls to be able to accept tile (re. deflection). Our Tile Guy did most of the Wedi install, but I ended up doing two pieces. I also did the cuts for the floor underlayment of the heating mat.

It IS expensive though. $30/3x5' board. For our installation, I was very glad I figured out this stuff exists. Our bathroom is small so it was only $200 more for the walls. (Compared to the cost of the tile - and the cost of the tile's installation - this is minimal.) I really really really didn't want to EVER have water from our bathroom damage our neighbors on the other side of the wall. For a variety of reasons. For me, it was important enough to pay the extra money. Maybe it was unnecessary, but I have more piece of mind. I mention this because maybe you don't need as bulletproof an installation. (My sister, as an example, lives in a SFH with 3.5 bathrooms, and so has different priorities. She had one bathroom out of commission for almost a year as her husband did a very leisurely fix and remodel to the shower. Her family didn't really miss it.)

In the category of "overkill" though, I saw Holmes on Homes put an orange waterproofing membrane over a NON-shower tub. (I think it was Kerdi-orange but I could be wrong.) We actually tivo-stopped the show and backed up to make sure we saw that correctly...yup, no shower head on the wall, just the tub faucet.

Thank you everyone.

The original guy wanted to take off all the installed Durock and replace it, which sounds weird. He insisted it would be easier to lay the subways that way, but if he's tiled for 20 years, doesn't he know how? Strange.

I found another guy to take a look and he agreed with me on that. He seems a lot more sensible and better at explaining things. He spoke of mud over the Durock, is that all that's necessary? If the RedGard is a lot better, I'll ask him about it.

In some instances, it is required to have a vapor barrier. We have shower-over-tub configuration, and a vapor barrier wasn't technically required. (Bill Vincent would be able to tell you exactly when one is warranted.)

I was told that RedGard was complete overkill, that I didn't need waterproofing for my set-up. One guy said that "code" only demanded that kind of thing for a steam shower.

It was NEVER my intention to do my bathroom "only" to code. To me, code is the bare minimum you should shoot for...code is the lowest level of construction that the county is pretty mostly sure won't fall down. When did "code" become the HIGHEST we should expect, or demand? So it always astounds me when contractor guys "brag" about "I always do it to code." So the best you can hope for is the bare minimum?!?

RedGard (or similar) is relatively cheap, good insurance, and importantly, does no harm if it isn't strictly necessary. I can't see a downside, except a tiny bit of money (compared to the rest of the remodel) and a little bit of time (in applying it, if you do it yourself). Though confirm with real tile people on that, because that was just my conclusion after research.

Wait, "mud over Durock"? Do you mean he plans to do a traditional mud job over a solid Durock layer? Really really really get a clarification on this. If that is the case, yell really loud for Bill or Mongo's intervention/opinion. (Maybe mud over durock is common, but I've never heard of that. But then I'm not a tile guy.) Maybe he was using "mud" differently.

I always thought traditional mud jobs were put over a chicken-wire-like layer. I thought traditional mud job was like an inch thick and created a substrate that floats independently from the studs. Or something like that. It isn't cheap, takes a huge amount of skill to do right, and is unbelievably rare on the east coast, more common out west. And, I thought, it was the original waterproof layer.

And weirdly, doesn't require caulk at the plane-changes because it moves independently and as one surface. Or so I've read.

Maybe it is legitimate to combine the two techniques?

We have shower-over-tub configuration, and a vapor barrier wasn't technically required. (Bill Vincent would be able to tell you exactly when one is warranted.)

Ummmmm... yes it is. Anywhere there's a showerhead, you need a vapor barrier, unless you use a surface applied waterproofing, like Redgard, or Kerdi.

I was told that RedGard was complete overkill, that I didn't need waterproofing for my set-up. One guy said that "code" only demanded that kind of thing for a steam shower.

It IS overkill. You can always take the cement board back down and install a vapor barrier! :-) It's much easier to go with the overkill, though. And just for the record, I would NOT trust Redgard for a steam shower. There are only three systems I'll trust-- Schluter's Kerdi, Laticrete's 9235 (used in conjunction WITH a vapor barrier), and Hydroment's Ultraset.

When did "code" become the HIGHEST we should expect, or demand?

I agree, but with some of the contractors out there, most people are happy to have their installations MEET code, much less exceed it. Besides, there's atleast one thread running right now about people who think we're out to rape every homeowner we come in contact with. Can you imagine if we priced projects out to be overbuilt?

Do you mean he plans to do a traditional mud job over a solid Durock layer? Really really really get a clarification on this. If that is the case, yell really loud for Bill or Mongo's intervention/opinion

I was kind of curious about that, too. Seems a little like overkill, if that's what he's doing, but from a technical standpoint, I don't see any problem with it, so long as he uses a scratchcoat over wire lath, OR some kind of bond coat to adhere the mud to the durock.

And, I thought, it was the original waterproof layer.

Nope. On a standard mud job, there's a layer of tar paper or poly between the studs and the wire lath (or chicken wire), which acts as a vapor barrier. Unless there's an actual waterproof membrane over the surface of the mud, as shown below (using Laticrete's 9235), then that mud job is NOT waterproof.

before waterproofing

after waterproofing

And weirdly, doesn't require caulk at the plane-changes because it moves independently and as one surface.

That's because the wire is supposed to wrap around the corners and reinforce them, so there's no way the two abutting walls will move independently.

NEXT!! :-)

To paraphrase Rodney Dangerfield, I feel like I just gave birth... TO A MASON!! LOL

Okay, see, THAT is why you are you and I'm not.

I think I'm mixing up vapor proof and water proof. I should just hush now.

No barrier is required (of any kind) in my jurisdiction for my set up. Back in the day, when different people were giving me different "requirements," I called and had an extensive conversation with Code Guy. No barrier required for shower-over-tub. (We won't mention the parade of tile guys here who said that the porcelain tile and grout will prevent water from getting past.)

Yeah, I saw that thread about contractors and took a pass on contributing. I do admire your willingness to fight the masses, though. (Go Bill!)Some people just can't be reasonable when it comes to paying for solid work - always looking for that extra pound of flesh. That said, I too welcome the point where so many contractors in my area (dc) no longer openly gouge. (I've gotten bids on some work that is staggering. As an example, one bid for some framing/carpentry was $3000 and their estimate is 6-8 hours, main guy and a helper, our materials (already on site). Assuming the time estimate is off by 100% and will take them TWICE as long as they think, that still came out to almost $200 an hour. I understand overhead, tools, insurance, and living wage; I understand that DC is wicked expensive. But if they are *right* about the time estimate, they expected to make almost $400 an hour. We ended up doing it ourselves because very very high amounts are common here and it is easier to learn something new than fight a whole town's pricing. Took us - two incompetent construciton idiots - about four hours, and we easily passed code inspection with "wow" from Code Guy, because we completely over-engineered it and are screamingly precise.)

But I didn't want to go anywhere near that thread because I don't think everyone over there is distinguishing between gouging-and-barely-competent guy versus highly-skilled-professional-ethical guy. AND I don't think people always distinguish between "a reasonable price that some things cost considering the skill involved" versus the amount *they* can afford. We can't afford everything we want, and I DO think this area is a problem, but I don't begrudge the good guys a fair compensation for their skill...and shame on those over in that thread that are gleefully waiting for the bottom to fall out from under you.

My dad always paid what HE thought was fair. During the 70's, that was almost always MORE than what the guy bid to get the job. (My mom - pathologically frugal - would "close her eys" to this every time he did it, which was a LOT.) He explained to ten-year-old me that you don't kick people when the economy is down. He had a PhD in economics so lived and died by supply, demand, and market forces. He was also raised by Jesuits (orphanage) and believed in the dignity of work and the necessity of doing what is right. ("Just because you can doesn't mean you should.") So he'd keep track of the number of hours worked and make sure that they were fairly compensated. (This was a time - at least in Wisconsin - when work was scarce enough that guys would slave over a job ...to get a good referral and hopefully more work.) One plumber got paid literally double his bid.

I have no patience for the grave-dancing going on over in the other thread.

By the way, I love how neat your underlayment work is. (Do you want to be my new Tile Guy?) It looks so neat and trim, that must be enormously satisfying to create.

Right now, I'm not home, and I'm using my wife's laptop, or I'd show you the tile work that went over that mud job, and you'd see why it HAD to be that neat. It was one of two steam rooms for Travelers Insurance Corporate headquarters in Hartford, Ct., in their company health club-- everything-- walls, floor, benches, ceiling-- all 2x2 ceramic mosaics, and it all had to line up. matter of fact, I CAN show it to you (I forgot my photobucket account-- it's been a long day!):

before grouting:

After grouting:

Oh.

Wow.

Ya know, it isn't necessarily my taste (that be a whole lotta beige, there), but the execution is so extraordinary that it is absolutely spectacular.

Did this tile come with little baby bullnose as an option?

How did you figure out the layout? I would think it is very very hard to do a whole room - including a ceiling like that - without having a single edge be a sliver? Were the dimensions of the room somehow magically just right?

Oops, I just realized that "steam rooms" means sweaty, naked guys sitting on your beautiful installation. Gah.

(And I've always wondered, how do you get all those little tiles flat compared to each other? Like, how do they not wobble in plane? I would think when you do bigger tiles, you install them one-by-one so you can make it happen on purpose, but how does that work with little bitty tiles...and a whole freakin' room of them?))

Were the dimensions of the room somehow magically just right?

Magically my butt! LOL That's what the mud is all about-- getting it exact. Exactly plumb. Exactly square. Exactly flat. Exactly to the right dimensions so it all works out right. If everything isn't exact, it won't happen. There were only three surfaces that weren't perfectly level, and that was the ceiling, the floor and the bench tops, which were deliberately pitched, again, to exact specifications.

Marry me.

(I get weak in the knees for any guy who pursues level and plumb - and square, planar, even, and true - like that...**fanning myself, clutching my virtual pearls**...)

Those two steam rooms took me and my stepson from mid-July until mid-September. Believe me when I tell you. I can do perfect. That's not a problem. But it doesn't happen overnight, and it DOES come with a price tag. I did another one back about 10 years ago when I was on payroll for someone else. It was technically speaking, THE most perfect job I've ever done in my life. I started in May, and finished in September-- 4 showers and two tubs. Not even the whole bathrooms-- just the showers and tubs. But the dimensions and installation had to be so exact that the showroom who got us the work thought I was taking too long, so they sent my boss in to help me, being he was the only other one who knew how to do mud. I put him in the maid's quarters, and inside one day, he had the shower up. The following day, I came in, and in big black indelible magic marker letters on the stone the architect had written "tear this [crap] down!" I called the showroom and told them if they pulled that again, I'd quit. They never bothered me again. Unfortunately, though, after the job was done, I was fired for showing up my boss. The only time I've ever been fired in my life. And the kicker is I put him in Architectural Digest with that job. Such is life. :-)

But just to give you an idea of how exacting this project was, the first three weeks I was on the job, I was there strictly as a consultant. All I had with me was a tape and level, to show the carpenters, plumber, and electrician, where everything had to go in order for my work to come out right. Here-- you wanna see anal? In two of the showers, one of the walls was the inside of the eaves of the roof. The architect had me take 24x24 tiles and cut them down so that even on that eave wall, where the tile was somewhat angled to the rest of the tiles, it would still line up with the adjoining walls:

In this one it's tough to see the eave wall, except by the change in shading, dead ahead in the pic. On the back wall, the 12x12's only go up 3 tiles, and then the tiles are actually 13 5/8" high in order to match up (Yes, I still remember that damn measurement!!)

These showers may not look like much but take a close look. You'll see the shower heads fall exactly on a grout joint, the handles are symmetrical in relation to that joint and on a horizontal joint, the floor's been cut into 6x6, where the drain, also 6x6 square takes the place of exactly one piece of tile. The bottom full tile starts at exactly the top of the curb, and there are niches in each that take the place of one full 12x12, with the sides and top overlapping the return pieces into the niche, while the shelf side overlaps the edge of the wall tile. Also, in the showers were the eave walls were, the third course had to fall EXACTLY where the eaves started, and all that had to be worked out BEFORE any of the walls were floated, and just to give you an idea of how out of whack that was, in the bottom shower, the wall on the right, the mud is 2 1/2" thick, as is the bottom of the back wall, in order to get everything to fall properly, while the wall mud on the left wall is barely 5/8" thick.

And to think they originally wanted me to do this with DUROCK!! I put up one wall, and the architect changed his mind and we shifted gears!

Oh yeah-- at the time I did Rosserne (the house where the bathrooms were-- it has its own name), I was making 13.00 an hour.

Geez. That is so freaking awesome. (Okay, "awesome" is an understatement, but I can't find a superlative to do your work justice.)

That shower is like an optical illusion. I showed this thread to my husband and at first, he's like "yeah, yeah, it's nice...what's for dinner" but then I pointed out the slanted wall and how you matched the seams...now you're the coolest person in his world. ("Tell me again: WHY can't we hire this guy?")

And if I knew that a shampoo niche could look like that (like a full tile just "pushed back") I think I would have considered one. Geez is that cool.

"...the floor's been cut into 6x6..."
Wait, are you saying that YOU cut the (bigger) tile into 6x6's? Like, they didn't come in that size and you did all that to match the drain size?!? I'm reading that sentence wrong, right?

"Perfect comes at a price." Of course. But what price is that? (I just got a quote for someone to FINISH our bath...$9000. For 80 sq.ft. and grout remaining. The guy comes insanely highly recommended, but still...we're going to pass on this and keep looking. Duh.) Do you charge more per hour because of the quality of work OR is the bill just higher because it takes more hours? (DC feels like it goes with the first option. By a LOT.)

Just as an example, the company that quoted Rosserne, billed the GC for $60K for 4 showers and two bathtubs. And that was with pretty reasonable materials (a British slate called Burlington Stone).

And yes, the floor tile was all cut on site out of `12x12's.

Missed couple:

Do you charge more per hour because of the quality of work OR is the bill just higher because it takes more hours?

It depends on the job. With Rosserne, it was because of the time. With Travelers Insurance (the steam rooms), it was both.

But what price is that? (I just got a quote for someone to FINISH our bath...$9000. For 80 sq.ft. and grout remaining.

Unless there's something you're not telling me, that's ridiculous.

Well, it does include a heating mat (Warmly Yours, pre-sized) over 30sq.ft. floor. And grout, which, unbelievably, isn't always included in a quote around here (for the whole bath, which includes the already-set tiles laid by Tile Guy, and the whole total is like 200 sq ft, including the floor). And that price includes grouting the now infamous porch, which is another 35sq.ft.

Yeah, I think that amount is pretty out there. And it is the highest I've been quoted (by double). Everyone who recommends that company admits they are "pricey." I'm amazed that all these people just accept this lunacy; their attitudes are just if-you-want-a-job-done-correctly-that-is-what-you-have-to-pay kind of thing, with the alternate underlying idea of you-have-to-accept-obvious-mistakes-from-everyone-else -we-recommend. So I can pay less than $100/sqft, but I should expect the guy to NOT do his job? (Like an electrician who charges less but everyone knows your house will burn down. Okay, not exactly, but that's kind of how it feels.) It is either right or its not. (I do know there is more wiggle to that for some of the technical aspects, but there ARE absolutes in the tile industry and people just ignore them. I don't get it.)

Those baths are amazing. It must be very satisfying to have created something like those at the end of a work day. Please tell me you and your wife have had as many children as she can literally bear that are all now in your conscription to learn what you know. You should be paid by the Tile Counsel (is there such a thing?) to breed. Some national homebuilders association should fund a lab to be centrifuging your little swimmers to pass onto a few lucky women. (And I know you hope I'm kidding, and I know you kind of suspect I'm mostly not...)

Okay, last question: since you've been in the business for a while now, have you ever gotten the job to rip out your own work when a new homeowner wants to remodel? (Like, the person who originally paid you to set the tile sold the house, and the new homeowner wants to rip it all out, and hires you to do the whole thing again.) Is it just so surreal to rip out your own work?

I don't care if the guy works for 100.00 a foot or 2.00 a foot. That's the price he agreed to for giving you his best effort to install your project. Whatever the value is that HE places on his work is up to him. He's still obligated to give you his best effort. Anything less is unacceptable. If he doesn't feel he CAN give you his best effort for the price given, then it's about time he raises his prices. And especially if you've got some prima donna giving a price of 100.00 a foot (hell, and I thought I was expensive!!) He DAMN well better be ready to donate a stinking kidney!!

Okay, last question: since you've been in the business for a while now, have you ever gotten the job to rip out your own work when a new homeowner wants to remodel?

Interestingly enough, not once. I've added on to it one time, but never replaced it for a new owner.

Man oh man, Bill..I've been searching for "wedi" installation and found this thread...those steam rooms are *masterpieces*. The ability to get something so completely lined up, just precisely offlevel, is astounding. Did you have to sand down any of the mud to make it perfect? Or did you perfect it when still wet?

(and what a rear end that architect was. Primadonna to say the least.)

The health club at the WHQ of my DH's company is *always* fighting a battle against cracking grout in corners -- which they continually replace with new grout, rather than thinking that maybe it might be better to use *caulk* instead of grout?!

Did you have to sand down any of the mud to make it perfect? Or did you perfect it when still wet?

It all gets perfected while still wet. Once dry, nothing else should have to be done, except waterproofing.

I'll start by putting up wood "spots" or screads, making sure they're perfecly plumb, and all in line with each other, as well as being perfecly square to the adjoining walls:

Next, I fill in between the spots with mortar-- basically the same thing as brick mortar:

Once it's pretty much filled up, I'll take a straightedge and run it up against the screads, till I'm left with a basically flat wall:

I'll do each of the panels like that till the entire wall is filled in:

Then I'll take a piece of styrofoam insulation and rub the wall down (or "float" it as it's called) to smooth out the rough mud, adding bits of mortar where needed to fill in holes:

And once that's done, it's pretty much ready for waterproofing,

and then tile: