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sw1347

Wise to go high-end for NYC micro-kitchen?

sw1347
16 years ago

Hello,

First of all, a thank you to all the great posts I have read on gardenweb.com. It's great to see a lot of inspiring ideas and technical advice from such a diverse community. I hope this post might picque some curiousity and debate amongst people as I am facing some interesting choices in my kitchen update.

I own a small apt. in a very popular neighborhood in NYC. I am in the process of planning a major kitchen update. There is about 9'6" of linear space against a wall and I plan on putting an L galley/island in front of the wall I mentioned. In this space I have figured out (with the blessing of a plumber and electrician) how to put in range, vent hood, dishwasher, washer, dryer (vented), and fridge and still have about 96" of counter space. In fact there are four separate small areas decent counterspace (1 on each side of range and 1 on each side of sink for a total of 4).

The appliances I want are Northstar 24" Fridge, BlueStar 24" range, Miele 18" dishwasher, Miele Laundry Set and a VAH Hood. Cabinetry would be upper-mid quality production stuff (an astute reader should at this point be asking: "with all those appliances he's not going to have much room for much in the line of cabinets"). Countertop would be quartz of some kind.

The total cost for this update would be about 22k all told. Obviously I could cut the cut the appliance bill in half, get laminate countertops, and maybe cut back in some other ways to take the cost down 30 or 40%, but the basic adventure of getting the plumbing and electric and carpentry accomplished is still half of this budget which probably won't change no matter what appliances I put in. There is no question that it's worthwhile to put in a fully functioning kitchen with full laundry and LOTS of counterspace, but the question is to what degree to go in the context of where I live, both the tinyness of the the apt. and the toney nature of the neighborhood that it sits in.

My question to the forum members is as follows. Am I crazy trying to put such fancy appliances/counters etc. in such a compact application? Given the fact that this is a small apartment am I creating a "white elephant" (or more aptly a one made of stainless steel). I am not looking for strict "real estate" type of answer, but rather if anyone has any practical comments on what they really think. Obviously there is the "your doing it for yourself" mantra which is certainly very powerful, but am wondering if anyone out there has some practical criticism or suggestions to offer on what direction to go. Thanks, Doug

Comments (26)

  • weissman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's sounds like you've done a great job. In a trendy area of NYC your apartment should be very popular if/when you try to sell. Until then, you'll really enjoy it yourself. Many people in NYC apartments can't vent outside so you really have a leg up there.

  • rococogurl
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would not put in a Bluestar. I would put in a Wolf. I feel that a Bluestar is too powerful in a small kitchen -- it will heat up the apartment way too much (meaning that it would be a downside). And in NYC it's not a prestige brand. You could go with a Wolf AG, Bertazzoni in a great color or another Euro brand that would be more designer-y.

    Miele is great. Northstar fridge is another non-prestige brand. I'd rather see Liebherr or SZ (the gold standard).

    Other opinions may differ but for me, in NY if you're going to invest the extra $$ in kitchen equipment it makes no sense from the standpoint of resale value unless it will help sell the apartment. Why spend $$ on brand-neutral appliances? (You might consult a real estate person on this).

    Bluestar is well known on this board but as we all know NY is another country -- one need only compare the real estate market in NY vs elsewhere right now.

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  • evaperconti
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am a native NYer, so I will offer my opinion from that perspective.

    For the snob appeal, I'd say you would definitely hit the right note...but for practical application, not too many people in NYC really cook to the degree that they would appreciate or need a Bluestar. You could go with a lower price brand and still get the full functionality. The VAH will be overkill unless you vent to the outside or the common duct. Miele isn't necessarily high-end or overkill for DW and washer dryer, but having those appliances at all in any brand is a big plus so you could certainly go for another brand without losing anything but the snob appeal of the Miele name.

  • fenworth
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't know anything about Northstars so I don't know how they compare to Liebherr, but a Liebherr would certainly look great.

    I wouldn't be concerned about Bluestar being too powerful. Having high-powered burners (the 24" tops out at 18K, a lot but not 22K) doesn't mean you're cranking them all at the same time. As long as your install is safe. Some might argue that you should be more concerned about brand and aesthetic prestige to the average Joe and get something more common like Viking or other pro-style that offers 24". Personally I'd get BS and wouldn't worry about it.

    Whether or not you'll eventually see a direct correlation between what you spent and selling price is anyone's guess, but from what you describe your kitchen will be a huge selling point.

    Good point above on whether your VAH has a place to vent.

  • sw1347
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Firstly, yes I can vent to the outside.

    Evaperconti and Rococogurl's point is well taken regarding the bluestar. It may very well be like putting a 600 pound gorrilla in too small a space. The Bertazzoni, Captial or some other "kinder, gentler" range may be more appropriate and a bit less expensive.

    With all due respect to rococogurl, I am not sure I fully subscribe to the prestige brand argument in this instance and here's why (this is a little off topic of appliances and on to real estate so advance apologies): Yes, this is NYC, yes it's the apt. is in a good location, but as I said it's small. Small apts. tend to fall off the radar screen of tradtional valuation models more easily than say a 3500 square foot duplex or for the film mogul neighbors who own whole buildings. A small apt. of 500sq ft. or less, even like this one with stained glass and fabulous wood work will never get any bigger and usually will only sell to a very limited "1st time buyer" group. Prestige brand appliances won't mean as much to this group as they would to 'fabulous' red carpet folks moving into the larger spaces (even if they are in the same block). Somone buying my apt. will be doing cartwheels simply over the fact that there is a full kitchen with good counterspace, and a full laundry I would think...Maybe I am wrong, but I am not entirely sure the straight square-footage valuation model applys to a really teensy space (even in NYC). If the space were bigger, then the story might be different--again I vacillate on this and benefit from the different points of view.

    The big plus or value adding move that I am making in my mind is doing the actual work to get the stuff put in. And to flipflop back to agree with rococogurl's point for a minute, yes, if you are going to go to all that trouble in NYC, you should try and put stuff in that people will recognize and are likely to admire if planning on selling. My target buyer (if and when I sell) would be someone young who wanted a turnkey solution to be able to cook, launder and live in a nice neighborhood for a few years and the fact that all that stuff is installed in a nice place would all be beneficial selling points. Others may have more wisdom to add or detract from this?

    Northland's got the only true built in that's 24" wide so after much deliberation, I still think they are quite nice units. Again, it's about function and the margins just don't allow for something wider. Maybe will take one more look at Liebherr as their machine would fit too.

    As far as the Miele, I would probably stick with it simply for the reason that it's all very quiet stuff (it's not like I can escape the noise so getting something clunky would be functionally a bad move) and people say good things about it in terms of reliability. I am wary of water issues above neighbors.

    If anyone else has any experience regarding a 24 inch bluestar and whether it would be just too brawny for a micro kitchen, please chime in. I do like this stove quite a bit, and can vent, and can provide proper clearances etc., but this is a valid thing to consider before purchasing and as was mentioned it might not be necessary.

    Thanks again, to all the responses, I know I have seen some of your posts, such as from rococogurl before, so I am quite appreciative. Sorry for the length of this or if this seems off straight appliance topic, but anyone rennovating in a small, urban coop space needs all the help they can get! Cheers, Doug

  • fenworth
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Doug - I'm not understanding your motivation. On the one hand you list all these higher-end appliances and ask if it'll be worth it in your apt, but then when rococcogirl mentions "prestige" you seem to downplay any the impact these wonderful appliances would have. If you think what's important is that your place simply has appliances, and not which ones it has, then you can probably do the job under $10K and why bother with the nice stuff.

    Your original post specifically asks for not strict real estate type responses, but in your last post you spent two paragraphs talking all about real estate, potential buyers, etc.

    As a non real estate person, I feel comfortable in offering as a fact that nice appliances etc. will be appealing to virtually anyone looking at the place, whether it's a first time buyer, someone looking for a pied de terre (or whatever that term is), etc.

    I think it comes down to what do you want to hear? Opinions from a forum of people who love kitchens and appliances, or a return on investment speech from someone who truly understands your market. If the latter, I'd recommend consulting a RE broker.

    I hope this doesn't come across rough - I'm really just trying to help.

  • sw1347
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    No it's doesn't come across as rough--your're right best to keep life complexities out of this forum and stick to the appliances. The problem is that my motivations are twofold: I'm very motivated to make a wonderful kitchen environment and love the whole modern aesthetic of the gear that goes with that without reservation...On the other hand, I have lived in the apt. for a while and don't know how long I will stay for other reasons and realize that the place would be kind of tough to sell in the shape it's in. So your perception is accurate.

    This is a forum for appliance tech info and design info, so I apologize once again for straying off topic. Chances are I will probably go ahead with what I really want to do with my appliances just for the experience and just see where the chips fall in the future. But this has been helpful in terms of seeing what's possibly overkill and what's not.

    Again, if anyone has any technical info regarding the questions I mentioned I hope this hasn't completely miffed everyone. Thanks, DOug

  • fenworth
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm reading your initial description again - will your kitchen be exposed to the rest of the apt? The reason I ask is because a friend of mine had a small apt like you mention (Tudor City) with a tiny tiny kitchen that was virtually out of site. In such a case going too nuts would likely have been a more of a waste than in a space that is seen from all angles.

  • weissman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not too many manufacturer's make a 24" range and Bluestar is probably the best. Viking has the "name" but Bluestar has the performance. If you plan to go with a pro-style range and it sounds like you are, I'd stick with the Bluestar.

  • Fori
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As far as your Miele choices go, can you even get a decent 18" DW in a different brand? I think it sounds like a good choice.

    Northland gets some bad press around here for being energy hogs. Liebherr does have a builtin 24" either stainless or fully integrated. If you're in a green neighborhood it might be a better option.

    I don't see why a properly vented Bluestar would be too brawny for a microkitchen (and it's not really that micro!). I mean, it's probably too brawny for any kitchen, but why NOT get something good? You might find yourself cooking!

    Keep in mind that people are making less money now than just a few years ago, and your wee apartment might not be going to some newbie first-timer!

  • lascatx
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You could save some money and not lose counterspace if you went with a 24" DW -- a Bosh would be less money and just as quiet. I'm very happy with mine.

    The Bosch W&D are less than the Meile and I think the size is about the same. If you can go a couple of inches deeper, the Frigidaire Affinity is just a little larger and a LOT less money. If you might be leaving them all behind before long, I might look at different options there.

    I saw another 24" fridge, but I can't remember who made it or find a link for you right now. I wouldn't be impressed with Northland. Sounds like you could find a different 24" or go to a 27" without taking too much.

    I have absolutely no info on 24" ranges, but a known name might be better in terms of resale. For resale, sounds like a fresh, streamlined look will be more important that the brand. Brand would be for your use in the meantime.

  • mindstorm
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bosch makes 18" dishwashers as does someone else but I unless you're looking to save a few hundred here or there, I don't know that its worthwhile to spin very much on whether one or the other. I think the 18" Miele is fine - besides, Miele has had a longer test run with it. Based on my experience in Boston, the labour costs are going to make your appliance costs look miniscule. I spent something of the order of 125K on my kitchen (small by US standards although big to me) and bathroom (small but good enough) - I bought mainly Bosch and Gaggenau appliances, AND I kept the old fridge. :-). So all these deliberations will be in the noise. That said, I'd seriously think about the Leibherr 24" - there is very much such an animal. No idea about the Bluestar.

    The one thing I'd say is that if indeed the kitchen is miniscule AND if you don't and anyone else who comes in won't cook, frankly, I'd think about keeping it small and usurp the space for other things. 8feet of counter is quite a good bit (I'm guessing you mean 8feet once you've accounted for stove, fridge, sink etc) - and it is vast in a tiny apartment. But I guess the question is: how tiny? I only bring this up because you've mentioned a few times that the apt is tiny. Personally, I'd rather have the room to move around in the place than be cramped there and impressed in the kitchen :-). However, if it doesn't phase you, my only vote would be for the Leibherr rather than the no-name appliance.

  • judeNY_gw
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As a life long New Yorker who has done too much construction my take on it is that labor in NYC is so expensive that it adds a relatively small percentage to the total job to upgrade to high end appliances. Also, from a real estate perspective, Subzero, Viking, Miele are the magic names. Going to Liebherr ($$) from Sz ($$$$) is probably a good way to save. I hear you that entry level apts generally don't need the super high end kitchen but the apartment market is getting kind of iffy right now, even in NYC so if you can set yourself apart by having a great high end kitchen you would come ahead. You could get your appliance money back on a quicker sale.

  • weissman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The real question is: Do you like to cook and are you mainly redoing the kitchen for yourself, not for resale. If so, the range is the most important appliance and in that case I think you should go with the Bluestar. Unless you have all four burners and the oven going full blast, you won't generate more heat than a normal range. For most things on a pro-style range, the trick is how low to keep the burners, not how high. The only things you'll crank a burner up for is wokking and boiling water. With a good hood, and not a microhood, you'll be able to vent out much of the heat.

    There are clearly different points of view on this thread and the only right answer is the one that meets your needs. Good luck.

  • alexrander
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a 24" Bluestar in a small 7 1/2' by 9 1/2' kitchen and it's great. I don't have any overhead venting, and it's still great. I might put a vent in some day for high heat grilling, but having the window near works fine most the time, and I live in California where my kitchen window is always open some. Its a great stove with a good sized oven. A friend of mine across the way loved it so much she wanted something similar (but different,of course) and bought a 24" American Range. She doesn't have venting either, and is very happy.

    I would also push for the liebherr, They make a freestanding 24" and I think an integrated 24"..

    We both love our 24" ranges.

  • zoenipp
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Doug:

    Do you cook? Are you an avid cook? I am asking because it is easy to start reading posts on this forum and get sold on a beastly-powered range even if you don't want/need it. I bought a Wolf AG after lengthy consideration of the Bluestar. The Wolf only has 17K burners (Bluestar has 22K) and, still, it is so much more power than I've ever had before that I really had to learn how to handle the firepower. I LOVE to cook so it was certainly worth it for me personally. But it would be overkill for my mom (a great, old-school cook), my sister, or most of my friends. I agree with Rococogurl's suggestion to go high-end on the fridge, DW, and W/D and step back a level (it will still be really nice) on the range and do an OTR microwave in such a small space UNLESS you are an avid cook and want the power/ventilation for your own enjoyment. If you will really enjoy/utilize the range, then go for the Bluestar but do it for yourself, not for resale. This kitchen will be a selling point for you anyway unless it overwhelms the apt. size-wise.

  • alexrander
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's the other thing, if you step back in the range, you'll have to go to 30", because there are no decent mid-range 24" ranges, maybe a Delonghi and at that point you're so close to a Bluestar or American, you might as well go all the way.
    The 24" Bluestar has 18K burners (not 22K) but its the way the flames go straight up that makes it such a joy to cook on.

  • fenworth
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Being as even a cast iron Aga Companion weighs just 311 pounds, I'm going to guess that calling a 24" Bluestar a "600 pound gorilla" was supposed to be an obvious exaggeration?

    I wouldn't downplay the importance of a good hood, especially given the opportunity to vent outside. In my experience the worst part of cooking in apartments is the inability to adequately vent cooking odor, smoke, etc. effectively. So I would look at venting more in that vain rather than being too concerned about heat. After all, even if you do crank it up higher than you could a Bertazzoni, how long would you do that for? A few minutes a day, less than an hour a week?

  • verysleepy
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi SW

    We live in Manhattan, and just had our entire apartment renovated. Our kitchen space was very small, and even after the renovation- small! We have a 30 inch Bluestar, a Prestige Pro Line hood above it (recirculating,) a Miele dish washer, an LG French Door with water and Ice large fridge, and a Whirlpool Velos above a countertop that also has a great fan underneath that helps with the venting.

    Since you know you can vent out- I would go with a great stove- 24 inch Bluestar. We love our 30" stove, and we can't even vent out (co-op rules.) As others mentioned above, the 24" stove only tops out at 18,000 btus- so you have nothing to worry about. I would go with the Liebherr fridge- as it is stylish.

    If you have such a small apartment- you have room for a washer and dryer in the kitchen? You must be in a very minute minority. Is there no laundry room on premises? This would give you more room in the kitchen for storage, etc.

    And yes- how large is your total apartment?

  • sw1347
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The comments are very useful (hopefully for others as well. I include a link at the bottom for those who wish to see how I plan to pack all these appliances in such a small space (about 70 Sq. Ft.)and remain true to my word of having at least 96" of useable counter space:)

    Yes, I do cook, although I kind of gave up a couple years ago because I got sick of the kitchenette being so small (6' 6" includes 20 inch range, apt. fridge and sink with a little counterspace wrapping around a corner.

    I do a bit of Asian cooking (got to be really careful of grease so I don't do this much), baking, etc. Thinking that a good range is the most versatile option to go with in a limited space.

    Rococogurl is talking sense here. It may be because she's a designer and looking at the total picture rather than just the appliances, but I do realize there are a lot of guys living around here who just don't cook. I like to cook and figure a little more kitchen (especially the counterspace) will entice me to do more. But what she is saying (I think) is look at the over all scale of your place and don't put some really serious piece of equipment in that's out of whack with the rest of the house. I have a 20 inch apt. range now and IT heats the apt. up a bit in the summer. In the winter it's fine because this old parlour room with it's tall ceilings and leaky insulation runs cold. Anyhow, I don't roast much turkey in August, but the point is well taken. Any of these ranges will heat up the room depending on what one does with it, but yeah, the bluestar or capital, american, viking ranges should all do about the same thing in terms of heat in the kitchen. But the appliance should match the lifestyle is what she's saying, which is a very good point.

    However, that being said, is a pro style range the best "all purpose" tool for someone who wants to do a variety of different cooking stuff? I mean my neighbor bought Gaggy ovens because she is a baker and she isn't that thrilled with them. I am just looking for a good "down the middle of the highway" choice that I will really enjoy. (Yes, I know the blue star owners are revving their super nova burners cheering, but probably any of these fine ranges will work including a Bertazonni or FP etc.)? The reason I am looking for power in a range is versatility I guess...?

    Still defending the Northland Company (I don't know why because the battle seems lost with the Liebherrite's out there:) These are extremely well built (I would say much less tinny than the Liebherr). There nothing special other than a very good looking tall thin built in with a stainless door and top mounted compressor. Insides are all metal and they go for about 3800 street price so they aren't cheap by any means--they also hold as much as a much wider fridge which is good for the space starved. The Liebherr's are really nice, but the construction isn't all metal. If I had room for their 30 inch built in I would get it. I am really going for a clean box look rather than anything else, thus the Northland. Who knows I may slash the budget and get a Liebherr before this is over. I don't like the integrated model that much as it doesn't hold that much.
    Apt. is about 400 Sq. Ft. in an historic district in Brooklyn.

    No other washer dryer facilities available. I carry the stuff to a service/drycleaner.

    Please have a look at the picture. Some people may have issues or comments about so much stuff being packed together space-shuttle style with virtually no under counter storeage, but there are no "win-win" scenarios with trying to do all this in such a compact area...I know this is an appliance thread, but readers may want to have a look at the rendering to get a better idea. Thanks Again. DOug

    http://photos.gardenweb.com/home/galleries/2007/09/microkitchen_plan.html?cat=my_favorite_room

    Here is a link that might be useful: Micro Kitchen Drawing

  • weissman
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I took a look at your picture - the only thing I have a minor issue with is the under-counter washer/dryer in the kitchen - that seems a bit odd to me but hey we all make tradeoffs - and I'm a firm believer in function before form. I'm assuming you don't have a closet somewhere that you could stack a washer/dryer.

    As far as the range goes, I firmly believe that a pro-style range will give you the most versatility and for someone who likes to cook is the place to put the most investment in a kitchen. I splurged on my DCS range and love it. I can crank the burners up for stir-frying and use the incredibly low simmer when needed. I also bake and roast a lot more than I used to and I love the infrared broiler - I've gotten lots of compliments on my broiled steak.

  • sw1347
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Weissman, You are right, it is odd, but necessary, since I am getting rid of a closet to make room for the fridge. I do bristle at the thought of bernaise sauce drooling on a Miele Laundry set as I am sure others might too. Also, it's not exactly desirable to feel like you are cooking in a laundry center either! Solution: 12" french doors on Washer (1 rt or lft hinged door might occlude work aisle too much) and a left hinged door on dryer (this would but up against chase wall when opened). By covering these with doors, the kitchen stays "Kitchenesque" until the time comes to do the wash at which time all that good counterspace becomes a laundry sorting platform.

    One note about the laundry set: Miele is about the shallowest of all the dishwasher sized laundry units. The Bosch sticks out I think. The other option is to get designer panels or get an ASKO which you can get with stainless or platinum doors which might hide the laundry set a bit. I am planning to hide these and have already consulted a cabinet maker how to do it.

  • rococogurl
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Doug -- For what you're doing you've done it well. My practical concern vis a vis actual building is the corner issue -- be sure there is room for the doors to open -- often it's just the rendering but you've got them opening into each other.

    For me, I'd put the washer on the end next to the sink opposite the dryer. Makes more sense to have storage to left of the range and no opening issues in the corners.

    I'd watch the clearances very, very carefully -- things don't always fit as you'd think.

    I wouldn't cover them up. My Asko has a flipdown door/cover for the porthole which is needed when unloading clothes. Dryer looks fine -- has same. Check the various brands. Miele is best IME but my Askos are very good, 3 y.o. now -- half the price when I last checked.
    Bonus on the vent would be a heated vs condenser dryer.

    I do think a Northland is overkill but if you will enjoy it and you want it that's what you should have. I'd probably go with a Liebherr.

    Knowing the apartment is in Brooklyn I wouldn't be as concerned about what you're doing there. Expectations are a bit different and, while I still would go with something more designer-y than a Bluestar (f.ex. a 24" Lacanche Cormatin in all stainless and has a ton of style, good feedback and very few complaints) I'm not not as oppposed.

    Different issues in Manhattan.

    I still maintain that the key amenity in this apartment is not the range, but the w/d. I can remember the days when I took laundry out and picked it up very clearly.

    With the 18" dw you should have space for a sideways garbage pull out.

    Our apartment is several times bigger and I have a 25 y.o. Modern Maid range. It not only heats up the whole dining roo m and foyer, it sets off the smoke detector in the adjacent hallway when the oven is set above 425 (which means when I'm cooking chicken).

    A working vent hood will certainly mitigate that to some extent -- no doubt. Nuff said.

    I do think there needs to be a microwave.

  • Fori
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think it's a good-looking layout. Balanced and petite looking without looking squishy. I can picture that looking out into a dinky apartment.

    And go ahead and get the Northland if you want! As long as you're aware there are others out there of the same size, and picked the one you want.

    Be sure you can open the fridge and pull out any drawers it may have. And that there is room to unload washer into dryer and stuff like that.

  • glad
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hi, don't know if you've seen this thread, but thought it might be helpful

    http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg050036476396.html

    Here is a link that might be useful: Another Small NYC Kitchen