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Did any of you change the pitch on your roof?

mollymcb
16 years ago

We are building the Frank Betz "Crabapple." It calls for a 12/12 pitch on the roof and has 4 front gables. (Prior to about a week ago, the "pitch" of the roof was a foreign concept to me.) After our builder studied our blueprints (before committing to our build) he told us that he would like to cut down the pitch to a 7/12 because a 12/12 was almost vertical and would be almost impossible to walk on, and therefore, very difficult and most expensive to build. He explicitly told us that he could cut the pitch and that "you wouldn't be able to tell." We agreed to do this since it sounded like there was nothing to lose.

Well, guess what? The roof was just framed last week, and when I saw it, I could tell INSTANTLY that neither the roof nor the gables were as steep as they should be. I just about popped a vein! We met with our builder, who was very casual about it and thinks it looks fine (as does my DH and my BIL--who is our insurance agent.) I don't think it looks BAD, just different. I am afraid that the house will look much less european (the look we were going for) with the 7/12 gables/roof. The builder is willing to change it, at a cost of about $5K, which DH is really opposed to doing.

I went out there today and although I don't disagree that it looks nice, I am afraid it is not going to look european enough, even with the carriage doors, stacked stone, etc. (I am not going for an all-out european look, just european influences.) I am trying to decide what to do but am leaning towards just leaving it as is and moving forward.

So I guess what I would like to know is whether any of you who are building/have built multi-gabled homes cut the roof pitch and if so, to what? If any of you have roof pitches that are a 7/12 and have photos that you could share, I'd love to see them.

Thanks so much!

Comments (31)

  • chisue
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We have a 10/12 pitch. Doubt you could tell it isn't 12/12. Still, nobody will go up there without a sky-hook!LOL

    Unless you are going to USE that attic space, why not go for a 7/12? (This is a problem I have with the Betz and Gardner designs -- lots of roof and gables without real purpose.)

  • jasonmi7
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm sorry; this is something I don't 'quite' agree with. 12/12 is NOT nearly vertical. The last home roof I built was 18/12, and it was fine. Pros can easily walk on a 10/10 roof. The plans called for 12/12....in my mind, it should be 12/12...but you agreed to let them reduce the pitch. Was that a verbal agreement? I'm thinking Sue's going to have to chime in here, because it's a contractual issue....because I certainly wouldn't pay to have them change to what was in the original plans. Argh! This stuff makes my head hurt.

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  • dixiedoodle
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your builder is either a liar or out of his mind to tell you that you wouldn't be able to tell a change from a 12/12 to a 7/12 pitch. That is not even close. But, anyway, you agreed to it and you said it doesn't look that bad, so it will probably be okay. However, I agree with what jasonmi7 said...a 12/12 pitch is not uncommon for roofers. Yes, it would be more expensive to build, but the change in roof pitches can dramatically affect the aesthetics of your home. I'd have a pretty serious conversation with your builder about what his comments to you were about this issue. Sorry that you're going through this...I'd say that he took advantage of your building inexperience, but I don't know if that would be an accurate statement considering the fact that it lowered the cost of the house.

    Okay, so honest opinion...I think a 7/12 pitch is pretty flat for a front elevation that is supposed to have European influences- I'd change it.

  • luckymom23
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We are in the process of deciding this very issue...our design calls for a 12/12 pitch, we are thinking of going to a 10/12 (thanks chisue for your tip on another thread!) so it won't be a huge difference. We have not discussed how this will affect the interior space yet, I am thinking it will be a 'less pointy' cathedral ceiling? That is what we are after so if it saves cost, and accomplishes our goal then GREAT! In your situation, since it is already built, if you like the way the house looks and you do not think it will bug you then stick with it the way it is. If you hate it or think it will always bug you maybe 5k is worth it if you can spare the money. Since you are not trying to replicate a style exactly the most important thing is that you are pleased with the overall look of your home. Hindsight being 20/20... your builder should have had a new elevation drawn up for you to approve the new roof pitch, or at least drawn over an existing elevation to illustrate the difference. I did a search so I could visualize the two roof pitches and it is quite a difference. How is it affecting the interior space? Perhaps that is the 'difference' you wouldn't notice that he was talking about? I hope this works out for you, and if you have pictures of your house I would be curious to see them, I checked out your plan on the Frank Betz site and it would be interesting to compare.
    Good Luck.

  • vancleaveterry
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with Dixiedoodle. Pay the 5k and go back to the original design. And from here out I would question your builders judgement on aesthetics.

  • kachinee
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pay the 5 grand and make the roof 10/12.
    The home will have more street appeal and if that is the case, it will be a good investment.

    By the way, 12/12 is a 45 degree plane, half of straight vertical. Cape cods have them all over teh country. I like 10/12 as a reasonable alternative to cut down rafter length and costs. Also, if you have dormers, they just do not look as nice on lower pitched roofs..

  • charliedawg
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We have a 12/12. We considered going down to the 10/12 and was told that it would not change the look. But in the end we stayed with the 12/12 for the main part of the house because we are using the "attic" space as living space. We used 6/12 for the covered deck.

    Here is the front with a 12/12

    Here is the covered deck with a 6/12

  • mollymcb
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks to everyone for your advice. There actually is more to the story (isn't there always?) Our builder says that part of the reason the roofline is different is because we enlarged the house (the right wall by 3' and the corresponding kitchen wall by 2'6'.) We had obtained a quote from Frank Betz to do that for us, and it was only going to cost $2500, but our builder said he could do it, so there was no reason to spend that money. (Again, he NEVER said that the roofline would change.) Between that change and making the pitch 7/12, the house turned out DRAMATICALLY different. In addition to the roof being shorter and the gables less pointy, we lost a whole CHUNK of roof on the left front and gained a stupid triangular looking thing that I call a 'batwing' to the left of the front door gable. Also, runs of our roof that are supposed to be one long run were cut in two, so that the roof goes so far, then 'steps down' in two places. One is on the back, so it is not visible from the street, but the other is on the left side as you drive up.

    Fortunately, the only interior ceiling that changed was our master bath, which he changed from a vault to a tray.

    We also have further complicating factors. The $5K quote was ONLY to remove the center portion of the roof and did not include additional lumber costs, which he had not figured yet. The biggest problem is that the builder says that the farthest left gable/roof area is too far done to change it--that it would entail tearing off the entire roof. He obviously does NOT want to make any change, and he was telling us that there is a likelihood of damaging the wood that the roof framing is attached to below, further increasing the costs, so it looks like I have no choice but to leave it as is.

    Here is a link to a pic of the front of the house as it is now. (Unfortunately, my computer--laptop for work--will not allow me to cut and paste pics--this is due to something done by our IT guy at work.) http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=155579863/PictureID=3525635766/a=70545523_70545523/t_=70545523

    If you click through a couple, you can see the back of the house. Here is a link that shows two sample boards showing where the roof would be if it were raised to an 11/12:
    http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=155579863/PictureID=3529287800/a=70545523_70545523/t_=70545523

    Our builder says that that only a small amount of that portion of the roof will be visible due to being blocked by our garage (which he plans to do on a 10/12 BTW.)

    I guess I am just going to resign myself to the fact that the house will not look like the one I picked out. I just want to know if it will look okay. DH, the builder (and about every male I've discussed this with! LOL!) seems to think it's going to be beautiful and I have nothing to worry about. Obviously, they are missing several important points, not the least of which is that the aesthetics of the house ARE going to be different.

    Can you give me your honest opinion about whether this is going to work?

    Thanks for your thoughts and for listening.

    Here is a link that might be useful: House photos

  • ccoombs1
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, man....I would be furious!! Sorry....that pitch looks bad to me. It is too flat for the height of the house IMHO. Your builder is a liar....watch him from here on out and second-guess whatever he says. A 12/12 pitch is not nearly vertical...it is only a 45 pitch which is NO problem for roofers or anyone else who wants to get up there. Lots of roofers would rather work on a steep pitch because they don't have to bend over as far to work. I would change the pitch now, if you can.

  • charliedawg
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I looked at your photos, I don't think it looks bad but I definitely think that this is the style of home that requires a 10/12 roof pitch at minimum. I'm shocked that your builder said that it wouldn't look that different. He nearly cut the pitch in half.

    Is this in writing or just a verbal change. I think this is a battle worth fighting. He should have to eat some of this cost. He said you wouldn't be able to tell and you can. You hired him to give you good, sound advice and he dropped the ball on this one, big time.

    I do think the house will look fine in the end the way it is but I think it will drive you crazy for years to come.

  • dixiedoodle
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't know...I think it's pretty flat. I don't like that the main ridgeline is below other ridgelines. I think that the "main" roof should always be the most dramatic. I'm sorry, but I really think it would look better with at least a 10/12. I can't believe your builder honestly thought that a 7/12 pitch would be indistinguishable from a 12/12.

    Okay, so did he ever have a draftsman revise the plans? Do you have a copy? Just enlarging the footprint shouldn't force this sort of change to the roof...also, I may not be understanding your description, but it sounds as if you pushed the house out R to L not front to back? If this is what you did, then the pitch did not need to change as the rafters run front to back (based on your picture...the main roof ridge is parallel to the front of the house).

    I certainly hope that your builder is not just doing these types of changes on the fly. Do you have a copy of the updated plans with these roof changes? If not, you need to get a set...NOW! How will you be able to tell if he is building to the plans and specs if not???

  • sierraeast
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Classic case of builders convienence.He blatantly and flat out fessed up to the fact that a 7/12 would be easier to get around on for all trades concerned.That's true, but when you pick out a plan that catches your eye, you expect that plan to be followed with the exception of minor changes,more often concerning the inside of the home.To let this guy's ego play in and attempt to convince you that the lower pitch will look fine is dead wrong. It's not his decision to make. It's your money and your house and i would make him change it back on his nickel and get it how you want, not for his convienence.

    Our build is an 8/12 which is just steep enough to be a P.I.A to get around on.I didn't exactly enjoy hanging by my toenails getting around when stacking out the rafters, but a lesser pitch,even down to a 7 would have not looked right on our plan.

    The downside to steeper pitches isn't limited to the build, years down the road when it comes time to paint,reroof, even stringing xmas lights makes it a chore,but if it fits in well with the design of the house, it's worth the asthetics and steeper pitches have an advantage in areas where weather is more of a concern.

  • sue36
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As you've already figured out, a 7/12 is dramatically different from a 12/12. You probably could have gone to a 10/12 without too much of a aesthetic difference, but the 7/12 is too low, IMO. We changed our primary roof pitch to 10/12 because at 12/12 it exceeded town height limits. But I had a draftsman draw it up to make sure it looked ok.

    Based on the info you've provided, it sounds like you agreed to this change prior to the contract being signed? Once you've signed a contract that contains certain specs, agreements outside the contract (such as a verbal agreement that it would "look ok") aren't binding. What does the contract say about the roof pitch?

    I believe your builder outright lied to you because anyone with ANY construction experience knows that a 7/12 roof will look much flatter than a 12/12. The 7/12 is not only easier to walk on, it is cheaper to builder. The way I would approach it would be to try to negotiate with him on the change. Tell him you are very unhappy. That he told you the look of the house wouldn't change, and that is the only reason you agreed to the change. That you RELIED on what he said, and it was wrong. Show him a picture of the house side by side with an elevation of the original (I'm providing one below) and point out how it is dramatically different. Tell him you want him to split the costs with him. If he balks, remind him that you relied on what he told you and he misrepresented the facts.

    How is the rest of the build going? It looks to me like there are a lot of differences between your house and the original, but maybe that was deliberate.

  • luckymom23
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have to say, that if I were in your situation I would want my roof changed...It just does not look right to me, and certainly not like the elevation on the Frank Betz site. Your builder should have made sure you understood the ramifications of this change and the fact that he didn't worries me. It is not your job to know the difference between a 7/12 and a 12/12 - that is his job and if he is going to make a change he needs to educate you and the fact that he didn't may indicate an attitude of "It is better to ask forgiveness than permission". I hope you are able to resolve this matter to your satisfaction. If you have to pay to have it fixed because you did agree to the change it seems fair that the builder should share in the cost as he neglected to fully disclose the degree to which this would affect the overall design of the home.
    Good Luck, let us know how you are doing.

  • chisue
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our roof went to 10/12 when the "upstanding citizens" of our town's BRB insisted we lower the roofline by ONE FOOT, although we were already many feet short of code limitations. (Meaning new drawings, time wasted, etc., etc., but not out of THEIR pockets.)

    When I said nobody wants to go up there, I wasn't talking roofers, I was thinking about "noise" we hear from the DirecTV guys and the chimney sweep.

    Now that the OP has posted her photo, I have to agree that the 7/12 looks worse than I'd expected (not terrible, just not the look she was going for). I'm guessing her house has higer ceilings than ours; we are 9-foot and ours is a single story home. I can't really understand WHY her GC did this -- how much is he saving on the build? Is he giving back that savings?

  • fishpants
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Now that I've seen the pics--
    What I see looks nice.
    But what I see is definitely not the style house you intended to have. I would fight it, depending on how you had your contract done. Did you have this 'change' in what you signed?
    OTOH, you may want to reconsider some of your exterior choices to match what you now have. Who says the interior can't still have that European look even if the exterior is a little different?

  • luckymom23
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    From the original post:
    "After our builder studied our blueprints (before committing to our build)..."
    So I am wondering- is this is a fixed price contract?-then the bid would have been for the 7/12 and I would think that would have been noted somewhere. Seems to me I read that in general the written contract 'trumps' the construction drawings...anyone know for sure?

  • charliedawg
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just looked at the comparison. You are attempting to build a large beautiful home and your builder, in an effort to save HIMSELF a lot of money, has put a roof on that belongs on a much smaller, less expensive, one story home.

    Now that I've seen the comparison side by side I can see why you are soooo disappointed. I would seriously question any of this guys suggestions from here on out.

    Not only did he change the entire look he caused you to lose loads of attic storage space.

    I'm so sorry you are going through this but I think you should do whatever it takes to get this back to the way it was meant to be built. And I absolutely think that most, if not all, of the cost should fall back on the builder. He flat out lied to you.

  • sue36
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is it my eye, or is the pitch of all the gables lower than in the original as well?

  • mollymcb
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi guys.

    Sue, it is not your eyes. All of the pitches are a 7/12, except my "still to come" garage, which is going to be 10/12 due to the bonus room above it.

    Our contract is SILENT about changing the pitch. It is fairly short and general, but it clearly states that he is building Frank Betz's Crabapple. We agreed to such a general contract b/c we felt we could trust him--he has been building in the area we are moving for 35 years and lives 1/2 mile from our build site. He is concerned about his reputation, and everyone we spoke with said he does a great job. I think he got in over his head on making the changes.

    Still, I feel certain that we could sue him successfully. We DID rely upon his representations that one would be unable to tell the difference. However, as you probably know, Sue, litigation would likely be a long, drawn-out expensive process, one we do not have time or energy for. We just had an infant, we are trying to sell our current home and when I go back to work, we will both be working full time 50+ hours a week. That is why DH just wants to go with it and be happy.

    I asked DH to read this thread, and his main comment was that I need to emphasize that it is not a matter of just paying $5K and it will be changed to "as written." If it were that, we'd gladly do it! The builder was ONLY willing to change that short section on top and the two middle gables. He was NOT willing to change the left gable/roof b/c he said it was too far along. That left the problem of that 7/12 roof running upwards towards a 12/12 roof and making it look even worse from the side. (I'm assuming it's possible for it to look worse!)

    The builder claims that when the "eyebrows" are put on the gables, they'll look much pointier. He also claims that only a very small portion of the top roof will be visible from the front, since most of the right side will be hidden by our giant garage, which will have the 10/12 and will be as tall as the front door gable.

    The builder called a while ago to confirm the shingles we wanted and said that they had put the decking on the roof and that I was going to "love" it. We will probably drive out this pm. to take a look. I doubt that I will ever "LOVE" it, but I will try to like it.

    This is a major lesson learned. I told DH let's live there 5 years and sell it and build again. The next time, we'll have an architect on retainer, and that person will be an involved participant in the project, so as to avoid this problem again.

    Oh, one last comment, DH said we are getting a "fine wine" house on a beer budget. He is probably right. Our builder has said that he would not have agreed to build the house with the changes without cutting the roof, as it would have required a 14/12. (It is a fixed price contract, with only 4 allowances.) We probably would have had to pay at least another $100K to build it that way, assuming we could find a builder, which would have been out of our price range. So, maybe this is a good compromise. I do LOVE the inside, especially with the bumps we made.

    Live and learn! Thanks for all your comments!

  • luckymom23
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Glad to hear that you are feeling better, you seem to have a great attitude and perspective. Though it is sad to hear you talk about selling before you have even moved in-this may mean more to you than you are trying to convince yourself. Not to keep 'stirring the pot', but...if you could change the 'main' section of the roof - the back part with the ridge running from left to right - I think that would make a world of difference. Is that possible? It seems to me that it is going to look very odd from the front and even more so from the side that the main roof section is lower than the front gables. Anyone else? Is it just me?

    If you could change that it might not give you the same look as your original design, but it would make the house look 'right'.

    With the roof 'as built' I would be concerned about hurting potential resale. If there are other homes that don't have a 'funky' roof you may have to lower your price to compensate. When we have shopped for resale homes in the past and seen things that 'didn't make sense' to us we have wondered what we couldn't see that might be a problem. I really don't want to add to your worries, I just wanted to give you another perspective since you mentioned selling.
    Good luck.

  • dixiedoodle
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I really don't think that keeping the roof at a 12/12 or even a 14/12 would have increased the building cost of your home by $100K...I could be wrong, but that seems off. I'm very glad that you are able to be calm about this...I would not be.

    I'm still interested in the answer to the question I had asked above...did he have new plans drawn up to illustrate these roof changes? It sounds as if he did not. So, a follow-up to that question is...what in the world has been filed with your county for your building permit?!! This is a pretty major change, and I am surprised that the county did not require a stamp from a structural engineer. I cannot fathom that this builder is doing this without plans. Really and truly, you need to get a set of "real" building plans. And, don't listen to him that things are too far along to be changed- ANYTHING can be changed with time and money.

    I really do sympathize with you now. I also really think that you need to stand firm with your builder...if you keep the roof this way- he owes you big time! And, I'd call it in...crown in every room, 7" baseboards, etc. on him, of course.

  • lyfia
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd say it doesn't look like the plan or the same style house, however I think you can work with it and it will still be a great looking house.

    The new roof lines remind me more of a mission style or Tuscan style so if you can maybe adjust your color selections to fit more with that if you like either of those styles you could end up with something you might really love and not feel like you have to sell in a few years especially if you still love the inside.

  • lyfia
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BTW I noticed the European style reference on the roof lines and being from Europe the only houses I can really think of that has the really steep roofs are Tudors or some British styles. This house has a more mediterranean (sp?) feel and those generally don't have steep roofs.

  • emmachas_gw Shaffer
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm amazed, shocked that your builder would represent that as a change you would not notice! It changed the entire style of your home! I can just imagine the hours you invested in selecting your plan only to have it chopped off at the knees---or in this case, the head! I would be furious.
    That being said, I do believe you can make lemonade out of the lemons. You have a rare opportunity to make your house both beautiful and unique. Spend some time checking out the architectural style of homes in Italy. The new roof line follows the Italian style. I think if you introduced some other exterior elements to support that style, your home could be a real knock out! Who knows---you might even like it better!
    And, if the "other elements" cost extra $$$, your builder should help with those expenses.
    Good luck in dealing with the stress of it all.

  • lsst
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is the "Crabapple". The lower pitch roof does change the look completely.
    {{gwi:1482360}}

  • mollymcb
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dixie, no, there were no drawings to illustrate the proposed change. Our builder did not mention it, and we didn't think to ask for them to be done, because we believed his representation that you "wouldn't be able to tell the difference." I feel like a total idiot for that now!!

    Lyfia, very interesting observation! I am going to look at some Tuscan homes and see what I can come up with. I do like that style. And I can still use my stacked stone. Thanks for the idea!

    I understand that shingles are going on today, so it's too late to turn back now. Interestingly, I just spoke with our custom cabinet maker (who has some building experience and a great eye for details), who said that he looked at it (at my request) and that he really thought it would be fine, especially after the garage with its large gable is built. I really do trust his judgment, but I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone a bit, as no one IRL thinks it is a big deal except me!!
    That said, I'm going to try to be optimistic about it--and YES, I'm going to get as many extras as I can, on HIS nickel!!! Will keep everyone posted, and I appreciate the comments!

  • pinktoes
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is a very big deal. Not because you can't adjust to it. But because you might have a real problem selling it.

    So, it has to be fixed before the shingles go on. First, you and the builder have to work together to have someone (NOT the builder; an architect, a home designer, a talented draftsman) do a drawing of what it will look like with the garage at 10:12. Rooflines are a tricky thing. And it's not necessarily a given that your garage will now make the house look better just because it'll be closer to the original design. You don't have the original design anymore. I'd gather my energy and make sure this doesn't become something you'll so regret later--for more than personal aesthetics reasons.

    Get a professional designer, architect to help you SALVAGE this plan. You might end up with something even better once the Euro excess runs its course. Emmachas and lyfia are on the right track; don't worry about what the plan books call it.

    Go to homeplans.com and look at their Plan AH-3230. It looks similar to what yours could be.

    Tat main roofline really needs to be higher than the others, but a talented architect might be able to break that rule and still have it work.

    I hope you'll exercise your right to change your mind about blindly letting the builder go forward till you get some professional help in working with the problem your builder created for you. It's a joint problem.

    Let us know!

  • pinktoes
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you're looking online at plans, try coolhouseplans.com. Search by style for "Mediterranean." Then on each house that looks kind of like yours, click on "See More." Scroll down and on the left side you'll find the Primary Roof Pitch as well as the ridge height (for the tallest roofline). That should help you. Just quickly, I saw several with pitches close to yours (8:12 anyway).

  • vancleaveterry
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd love to see some pics of this house finished