If you can buy HPG you most likely can get Aquadefense. Both are made by Mapei and both are excellent products.

I like the baby blue colour of HPG but don't like how thick it is. I find it hard to roll and have found through my independent testing that thicker layers of liquid applied membranes add spider web type cracking through out the corners mostly. HPG is designed to go on thicker but I still don't like it.

I love Aquadefense but hate the dark colour after it dries.

I love love Hydro Ban and would contact Latecrete to see if a local store carries it. In Vancouver I let clients buy this great water proofing product at Centani Tile and use my discount. If one of Henry's boys works close to you I'm sure they would do the same.

Email Michael at Laticrete - he is my rep. I'm sure he can point you in the right direction. Michael's email address is canadian.mosaic@shaw.ca

Make sure to follow all the instructions and check with city hall about the length of flood test needed in your town. Most times it's 1 - 3 days.

Pleae follow this advice as it is a code required inspection and the only way to insure your job is water tight.

Before you waterproof your shower pan or tub surround test your product. Open it up and give it a good stir. Look for dried chunks and bits and after a good stir waterproof a small cardboard box. Let it dry overnight and give it another coat. Don't put it on to thick and once the product dries flood test the box.

It's easy. Just go slowly and ask questions. The best place to start is at city hall. Understand the process - the steps required and then break them out one by one here online.

Don't forget the "Flood Test" this is so important.

JW

Thank you both!

Mongoct, we haven't begun demo yet. Still researching our plan of attack. The house is 13 years old (we've been in it 3 yrs) and I know there is water damage. Moldy grout that won't scrub clean, a couple hairline cracks on shower floor tile, and a water spot on the first floor ceiling below the bathroom. But we haven't removed tile yet to see how bad the mold is. I'm not sure if the existing shower pan will be salvageable?? Under what circumstances can you salvage an old shower pan? The current one is sloped. If we can save it, we will and use the liquid membrane on floor and walls. We'd like to use a Kerdi drain with the liquid membrane but haven't ruled out using the Kerdi membrane, either. I don't think we can use the Kerdi pan because of the size of the shower and location of the drain, so if we have to rebuild the pan my husband will be doing it with mud. He is very handy and we've tackled tiling before... but this will be the first shower project. A little unnerving! What are your thoughts on our choice of products?

Excellent, Just the informational feedback I was looking for.

A lot of guys will use liquid membranes with two-part clamping drains with weepholes, using the "divot method". I'm not a big fan of that. It's not that it doesn't work, these guys are far better tile mechanics that I'll ever be, and probably set more tile in a week than I do in a year. But that method can be difficult for a few reasons.

I just think there are better ways.

Since you're already contemplating a Kerdi Drain. I highly recommend the Kerdi Drain with Hydroban. It provides advantages over the divot method in terms of giving you a single-slope floor from the wall to the drain, and I think it's so much easier to do that than a first-timer trying to detail a divot and not mess up the weepholes, etc. Hydroban also warrants using HydroBan with a Kerdi Drain. Bonus points for that. That means that it's not a combination cobbled together by some whacko, it's something that has been tested and approved by the material manufacturer.

Or obviously you could use Kerdi membrane instead of HydroBan. But I think Hydroban is easier.

As far as the existing shower pan being salvagable, any time there is a leak, I consider the pan to have failed.

Cracked tile indicates that the mud underneath might be cracked and the tile is telegraphing those cracks.

Unrelenting mold and mildew on the grout can indicate that the mud underneath the tile is saturated, it's holding moisture. That can be an indication that the membrane is flat on the floor and not sloped, only the mud on top of the membrane is sloped. That, in and of itself, is a code violation.

You sound capable, and with all the work you're proposing, to not replace the existing mud base would be a poor choice in my opinion.

Deck mud really isn't terribly difficult.

I'd recommend a demo to the subfloor, carry out any repair and/or reinforcement to the subfloor as required, then from the subfloor up use:

1) A slip sheet of plastic or tar paper (if radiant floor heat use plastic)
2) expanded diamond mesh, stapled to the subfloor through the plastic.
3) Sloped deck mud with Kerdi drain
4) HydroBan
5) Thinset and tile.

There's a little blot about setting a Kerdi drain in a sloped deck mud bed in the Kerdi Shower thread, it's about halfway down the thread.

Best, Mongo

You rock! Thanks so much, Mongo. This is a huge help in giving us a gameplan. And nice to hear validation on some of the things we wanted to use (Kerdi drain w/ Hydroban). I'm sure we'll have many more questions as we go, but this is a great start. :)

Kristin

Oh, one more question... I saw on one of those DIY bathroom shows where they used these angled metal strips that already have the proper slope. You screw them into the subfloor and just keep the mud level with them and there's your slope. Any idea what they're called or who makes them?

Never used them. "Quick Pitch" is one I've heard of, but no, I have no experience with them.

I figure how much mud I want at the drain, let's say 1-1/4".

I figure the pitch of the floor. It has to be between 1/4" per foot and 1/2" per foot. If your shower is 4' by 4' with the drain centered, then using 1/4" per foot over 2 feet, you'd want 1-1/4" plus 1/2", or 1-3/4" of mud around the perimeter walls.

I'll mark the perimeter height and pack mud around the perimeter walls, bringing it maybe a couple of inches into the shower. Then I'll set the drain elevation. Then I fill in the floor space between the drain and the perimeter.

There are certainly other ways. Some people slip little 1-3/4" high screed boards in around the perimeter of the shower and use those as elevation guides, then flip them out and infill the gap left behind with extra mud.

When I say "pack" the mud, that's exactly what you do. It's a lean cement:sand mix, roughly 1 part cement to 5 parts sand, with just enough water added to moisten the ingredients. It's not pourable like foundation or sidewalk concrete, it's more like clumpy moist beach sand.

You "dump" a bucket of it in place then spread and pack it in with a wood trowel, or a piece of 2 by 4. You can add a little here and pack it down if needed, or shave a little down with the edge of a metal trowel there if desired.

I'm sure there are numerous "how to" videos on YouTube.

Thank you!

Quick Pitch pieces can be left in place when you do your pre slope base layer and will make the install that much easier for the average DIYer. I have ordered some and they have not cleared customs yet but you can get them. You can use various lengths of 2"x4" 's as screeds (to pack and pull away excess).

If you prefer, you can mill them out of regular 2"x4" 's and then after you get your pitch, remove them, add more "Dry Pack"* and then feather it all together. Laticrete's "Thick Bed" makes for a bullet proof install.

Make sure you start building off of a 5/8" Subfloor (Plywood or Ship Lap). Bang those old boards in and pre-drill for new 2" screws. Your floor joists will be old so I like to go back and forth at about 40 degrees when driving in the screws so you don't split the top of the floor joists.

Most times you are removing large portions to do plumbing up grades and you should understand what part of your subfloor you can and can't cut.

I'll post a video tomorrow explaining this better.

This 5/8" subfloor base then should be topped with another layer of 1/2" plywood. Glued and screwed (1 1/2" screws - a wack of them!). Schulter has excellent drawing for proper sub floor prep.

Consider a Channel Drain to simplify the install. I would love to help and will lend a hand anyway I can. Call me anytime. John Whipple (604) 506 6792.

We are grading a floor tomorrow for a new curbless shower here in Vancouver and will send you my pictures. Email me your drawings and elevations and I can give you my two bits.

Good Luck.

Just wait till Bill chimes in. You will then have at least 3 "Soldiers" here to help.

Let's build it!

I'm working on my writing skills and my newest "Bad Boy" is better with the pen than the tools - he will help me with my words and I will change his collar from white from blue.

Bear with me ;) I'm learning...

Here is a link that might be useful: * Dry Pack

You guys are so helpful! Thanks so much.

The only comment I have is with reference to the wire lath. When it comes right down to it, for a shower pan, it's not really needed, being that the mud bed should not be attached to the structure in any way, other than being wrapped around the drain, and the floor is usually so small, and completely surrounded by walls on all sides, that there's no way for it to really break apart, so long as the dry pack is properly mixed. That said, I DO still use it for insurance in all my shower pans, Kerdi or conventional. HOWEVER-- the lath should NOT be stapled to the subfloor, or otherwise attached. By virtue of the poly or tar paper underneath it (otherwise known as a cleavage membrane), it should be a floating floor. The wire is there only to make sure it doesn't crack at all, and again, even for that, it's really not necessary.

Good to know, Bill. Thanks. So will the mud adhere to the cleavage membrane and then the entire thing floats? Which means no stapling the cleavage membrane to the floor either?

Oh, and does anyone know any pros in my area (Raleigh, NC) that could get Hydroban for us? John, I emailed your guy and got an out of office til 9/21 message (of course it will probably be after that when we'll need it anway!). I tried getting it special order at Lowes, no go. Laticrete told Lowes for me to try Dal Tile, but they only have it as wholesale. *Sigh*

No, it won't adhere to the cleavage membrane. You don't want it to. It basically sits on top of it, and yes, that means no stapling the cleavage membrane to the subfloor, either. Everything just lays in there loose.

Until you pack the mud in. :-)

And matter of fact, I DO know someone in your area. Shoot me an email, and I'll see about getting his contact info.

I add a few staples to hold it in place so it doesn't flop around so much. That way I only bleed a little instead of giving a whole pint. lol

The staples really have no lateral holding power, they'll flex if needed. Nails on the other hand would hold it tight.

So I use staples.

Ok, we'll try to avoid attaching it too firmly, and only use a couple lightweight staples if need be.

Bill, just emailed you...

Follow the link below to find the nearest outlet...

I posted on Laticrete's Facebook page and hopefully a "Waterproofing Specialist" in your town gets the message.

Good Luck.

http://www.laticrete.com/contractors/find_a_distributor.aspx

Here is a link that might be useful: Laticrete Locator

Thanks! I called the local AO store and they'll sell to the general public. :)

Based on our (generous) estimate, we would need 5-6 gallons for our 3x4 shower and adjacent roman tub deck/surround. Does that sound accurate? Don't want to overbuy but want to make sure we have enough for multiple coats.

You will get aprox 50 Square per gallon of Hydro ban if you apply it over Green EBoard or cement Board on the rough side.

You will get closer to 60 Square feet of coverage over the smooth side of Green EBoard.

Can you measure out the exact square footage and what you plan for a shower base and the walls.

The Kerdi Drain is an excellent product but a bit on the pricey side at $130.00

Nobel makes a sweet little adapater piece for a regular drain $12.00 that can give you a liquid tie in point. Contact Laticrete for approval - I spoke just two days back to Eric at Nobel head office and he told me about this greta Nobel product.

I have some of those en route as well. Eric is a great guy - email him and he can tell you all about it. I wish he chimed in here from time to time...

Eric? Where are you? sales@noblecompany.com

JW

Here is a link that might be useful: Nobel products for your bathroom renovation

Based on those numbers, 6 gallons should do it. Thanks!

plumkrazy,

Just to avoid confusion...you may already know this but I'll toss it out anyway...

A gallon will cover 50 sqft with TWO coatings.

So if you have 150 sqft of substrate that you want to cover with two coatings, you need 3 gallons.

Contact Laticrete for approval

I've already gotten approval from Henry for the Kerdi drain, and maybe it's a geographic thing, but I know most Kerdi stuff is on the expensive side around my area than most that I hear about, and that 130.00 is for their most expensive drain. For the plain aluminum drain cover, and standard size shower drain, it's only about 89.00, and as I said, it's already gotten approval from the upper echelon Laticrete.

Ohhhh. Did not realize that those numbers include 2 coats. May have to return some I just bought!

Do not order, mix, use, apply, smell, touch, taste or look at anything funny if you have not first read the instructions sheet. Start to finish.

Every Bag. Every label. Every time.

I still forget sometimes - and it costs me...

Do you guys use the Laticrete fabric in the corners when using hydroban? I know the specs say its not necessary but just wondering if its worth the extra effort. Our kerdi drain arrived and came with some kerdi fabric corners... we also wondered whether we could/should use those with the hydroban?

Hello Krazy,
I use bands of fabric at all of my plane-breaks and for the entire pan floor. It's cheap insurance, in my opinion. The Kerdi corners are NOT compatible with Hydroban though. You could try to Craigslist your extra Kerdi-drain bits a or just forget about them until your next project?
Shaughnn

Thanks, Shaughnn!