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johnfrwhipple_gw

Three Day Flood Tests - Kerdi or Hydro Ban

14 years ago

Lets see and hear back on your flood tests people. I'm curious to see how these test go at home.

Insist on a 72 hour flood test and make sure these are preformed.

Does anyone know the proper way to measure evaporation rates? *

If your setter, plumber, brother, dad or GC tell you you don't need a 72 hour test they might be nervous. If they tell you you don't need a 48 hour test they might be timid. If they tell you don't need a 24 hour test - they might not be in the business...

Flood your work people.

Flood Bills work. My work. Mongo's work. Your work. It all needs to be checked every job. Every time. No exceptions to the rule - ever ever ever...

If you let your shower get built and skip this point you have only your self to blame for letting it happen. Understand the building codes and why they have been written.

Water can destroy your home so fast.

Know how to abort the water test before it happens and check often. Your GC or tile guy can't camp out in your home. A lot of water can leak out in 72 hours if the shower pan is less than perfect.

I am far from perfect but strive to this goal. I leaked out two weeks back on hour 50 of a 72 hour flood test - I learned a week ago that the client noticed water at hour 24 but thought it was splash out from me filling the pan.

All us pros make mistakes; from time to time the material is defective or a simple mistake like dropping a tool or stepping on the kerdi membrane with a nail stuck in your boot cause a hole or a tear. I tour my last Nobel membrane installation with some channel locks and didn't notice I had did it. I reviewed the install with my first year journeyman and he didn't notice the tear either because it was on the back side of a recessed drop I created.

Mistakes happen. This one was careless and the fault of not having the proper tools on site. The tools are now loaded in the van - but this lesson goes to show that anything can happen. Flood your work. How many bathrooms are in the land fill right now that could have been saved?

How many of your children suck in mould spores in a poorly built bathroom? In my private testing 1 in 2 "Box Store" sales employees have no glue how to build a bathroom that is code compliant and waterproof. Who did you ask for advice when you build your last bathroom? Do your kids bathe there? Do you always have to re caulk and bleach the corners?

Not good news if you do...

Any thing can happen! That is why there is a required 24-72 hour flood test.

Water can take time to find a road way out of the pan - but once the route is found the traffic quickly picks up. Grout and mortar are not waterproof - sealers will not make it so. If the shower is used 3-5 times per day like most busy new showers in an average family of 4. These shower bases stay wet and the water will wick out.

Bugs like Silver Fish love moist places. They like moist wet drywall paper places alot. Bone dry showers are no fun for bugs that like it wet. DON'T GIVE BUGS THE MOISTURE THEY LOVE. THEY WILL FIND IT AND THEN START TO DESTROY YOUR HOME AND YOUR HEALTH...

My thoughts.

"Waterproofing your bathroom shower pan is not something you can all most do perfect. When it's perfect. It's good enough." - John Whipple

{{gwi:1477457}}

Hydro Ban installs in Vancouver

{{gwi:1477459}}

Flood the pan...

{{gwi:1477461}}

A passed flood test - this one only 49.5 hours, next time 72...

Flood Testing Procedures TDS 169

* clues found here ----> http://www.laticrete.com/portals/0/tds/tds169.pdf

Here is a link that might be useful: Flood Testing Procedures TDS 169

Comments (54)

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Noted for future restraint...

    What's the longest flood test you've done? We had Mosiquito Larva growing in my Kerdi ACO tests. Day 17 roughly.

    I hate flooding out over finished ceilings and still breathe a sigh of relief after every one.

    What are some tell tale signs your flood test is failing? Other than water dripping out the kitchen down light?

    Any ways to pre detect small pin hole leaks?

    How long should you hang around for before leaving for the day?

    Good questions - lets raise the bar! Who has the answers?

    JW

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    These posts about flood tests are really not practical for the average homeowner. All I've gained from this is a vague idea that I'm supposed to have "someone" pour(?) a bunch of water in the shower pan at some point. And I suppose the water is supposed to go away? Or not go away? I have no idea. I wouldn't have the first clue what to ask my contractor or tile setter (and I wouldn't know which one to ask since I'm contracting out the tile myself) to do. And if I don't even know what to ask them to do, how would I even know what to look for. And by the way ... holding up a project for three days while water sits somewhere is a HUGE deal to me. If it's necessary, that's fine, but what else can be worked on while this is happening?

    There are lots of people on this forum who are not professionals and frankly have no knowledge of how these things work. If you're going to keep posting information about flood tests, it would be nice if you would gear it toward those of us who don't have a clue what you're talking about rather than presenting it as a challenge to the other contractors on the board.

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  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    HI Sailor Girl.

    Your message about my flood test thread just proves my point that the topic is not talked about enough. Many trades people can us your desire for a speedy renovation to skip this step.

    This showers are required to be flood test for 24-72 hours. Fact. Required. Code. This needs to be done no matter who build it.

    Is it fair to build a new bathroom - skip this step to save time and money - and then dump a house or apartment on the market and leave the problem for the next family? I would not be able to sleep at night. Is it fair?

    I think not.

    All you need to know as a home owner is that you expect a flood test and make sure those coming to do the job understand this. You will scare away most contractors with this request alone.

    I'll dig up my various plugs and stoppers we use to plug these shower drains and show you what they look for...

    My challange is for both Bill and Mongo and even more so the Army of DIYer's out here - empowered by the "Box" and Online content who don't understand the most basic steps.

    Do you find it shocking that most "Box Stores" don't even sell the plugs to preform this test.... I don't. I'm sure they want your project to fail.

    Who makes money if these bathrooms last a lifetime...?

    Who's job is it to do the flood test? The plumber's most time in an old school job. The tile setters in a new age job. Grey area - back and forth.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    John,

    While I can appreciate your stated desire to make the industry better, it is tough to get beyond the schoolyard bluster ("Oh, yeah? Well I did a flood test for 48 hours! Oh, yeah? Well my flood test of 72 hours! Oh, yeah? Well my 17 day flood test grew mosquitoes! Beat that!"), and the meandering posts that often confuse the point. We are all adults on this forum, and as such we appreciate accurate information in response to questions and tend to disregard condescending lectures no matter how informative they may be.

    While I understand that a public forum or a blog lends itself readily to your tendency for verbosity, not everything in your head needs to be shared en mass. I suggest writing a book. A careful editor with a talent for parsing could possibly turn your effusive rhetoric into a concise, useful guide for homeowners.

    As a DIYer myself, I do research all of my projects thoroughly before starting. When I have questions, I go to the helpful pros on the John Bridge Forum, or ask Bill or mongo here because I know I will receive a thoughtful reply, with the detail I request, with no extraneous BS. Perhaps it is merely a personality clash, but your attitude really puts me off. Other pros on this forum have earned respect from so many of us by taking the time to answer our, often basic, questions. They have earned the right to lecture a bit because they already have credibility. You, on the other hand, seem to have entered this forum solely to lecture, boast, issue professional challenges and drive traffic to your website. No matter how competent you may be, and we only have your word for it, that behavior does not earn you any credibilty with me. Respect is earned.

  • PRO
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just plug the drain with a balloon, pour in 5-10 gallons of water and mark the level with a Sharpie. Give it a full day. If it hasn't gone down by then, it ain't gonna. Three days? In three days, you're going to have some evaporation. How would you tell that from leakage?

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have no links to my website with in these pages.

    I do take the time to answer basic questions.

    The industry needs improving because so many jobs fail and that is a crime.

    The results of poor work everywhere online and I fix them every month here in Vancouver because my clients have hired the wrong crew or followed bad advice on a DIY project. I could list them all for you if you like.

    Bill and Mongo are "Gems" in these pages and I still have so much to learn from them. This is not a simple "Weekend Project" building a shower pan - and it needs to be done right. People's health and homes are at risk.

    I have helped people all over North America who have email, posted and more and more called me and ask for help. I do help.

    I work the tools every day. I build bathrooms and fireplaces and do it very well. I frustrates me to no end the poor advice given in retail stores and the work completed by many "Pros".

    Why do my clients in Caulfield have to hire me to fix a brand new shower? A poorly build shower pan and it passed inspection??? What a joke.

    I think there are many highly educated people online that read my posts and others and then make their own choice. I think people read books like "Mike Holmes Make it Right" and make even better choices. People start asking for the right products and meet the local experts in their town. It's not hard.

    I don't desirve your respect or anyone's for that matter. I will earn it by changing this business and making these bathrooms safer, healthier and stronger for our aging population and the littlest ones who have the right to have bath time with no mould.

    These test prove the products work. These flood test make a project stand the test of time. My testing and results are posted daily - my clients love my passion for this business and my desire for perfection in their bathroom renovations. Their respect I have earned.

    I'm making a change or trying to make a change rather for my girls - my kids. Their friends and their friends. This is hard to do when so little out there what to take all the steps needed for a "Bullet Proof" install.

    These bathrooms and showers take time to build right. Time to test. Time to wait. Most people don't realize it's needed.

    I think those looking to do things right will find these threads -read them and ask better questions. This will weed out the "Cowboys" and the "Pros" will have more work. Many once understanding the degree of diffuculty will hire more "Pros" and more bathrooms will be built right.

    All this in it's own little way will keep more garbage out of our landfills - that's what I can do. This is what I know.

    I will help and try and change this industry for the better. I can't be stopped - I'm focused and this is for my Kids! My home. My country. My planet.

    It's easy. Just work harder...

    My thoughts

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, here are MY thoughts. The only one who stands to lose if the shower leaks is me. I stand behind my work, and I'm fully insured, should my work cause damage to someone's home. So in that light, the only one I'm protecting by flood testing the shower pan is myself. Now, in all the time I've been setting tile (I hope to hell I'm not jinxing myself here), I've yet to EVER have a single shower leak. Not one. Straight out-- do I flood test? Not usually. If someone requests it, I will. But I'm that confident in my shower pans and in my ability to make it watertight that I'm not worried about it. Some might say I'm tempting fate, but I'M the only one who stands to lose from it-- not my customer.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You know why I do flood testing. Pretty much one reason: Everyone wants to walk into an orange Kerdi shower to look at all the orange and back in it's horrific glow. They won't if there's a couple of inches of water sitting in the pan.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think it would be great if you knowledgeable folks would put together an easily accessed list of the proper steps (including waterproofing) and subsequent tests that should be done for any shower or tub surround installation. A list like that would have been real handy when I had my guest bath redone by the local (and respected) kitchen and bath shop.

    I'm in rural area. I have the choice of either slow dialup or expensive satellite internet service-no DSL here. I took the former which means HGTV and other sites loaded down with video and ads are practically inacessible to me and little help when I planned my guest bath renovation. Since I wasn't doing the installation myself, I skipped over the John Bridges forum because it was so detailed it just confused me. So I was uninformed as to proper procedure when the project started. But I had hired a respected GC, right?, who had been in business forever and I shouldn't have to hover at each step. Yeah, right. While the shoddy tiling (straight lines but LOTS of lippage) on the floor was immediately obvious, I didn't realize the moron (a sub) didn't use waterproofing in the tub surround until reading another post here yesterday. What was more relevant to this thread, was that the moron who did the shoddy work has done lots of other tile jobs for this GC with no complaints! I doubt I was singled out. I believe the other customers just didn't have the time to properly check his work or the energy to make complaints after coming home at from a long day at work.

    Despite lack of waterproofing, the tub surround in my guest bathroom does not appear to be leaking...yet. It's not used much and it's only been 3 years. It could very well be leaking but the damage is hidden. The house I grew up in had a leaky shower that went undetected for 30 years because it sat over a crawlspace. Luckily it was found during a renovation before the floor rotted through completely. Bill-I doubt very much that your showers ever leak-but for all the other GCs out there- "no complaints" is not equal to "leakproof." Lack of time/energy, hidden damage, and "loss" of GC's or tiler's name through house sale could all mean that the tiler never knows and is overestimating the quality of his/her work. Knowledge that their within their rights to insist on a flood test is a good thing for customers, like me, who wouldn't know otherwise and be too meek to challenge "I always do it this way".

    I think a post containing a list of steps needed for building a shower or tub surround would have broader benefit and appeal than, say, a post asking which floor tile goes best with their vanity and granite.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I find it odd that Schulter does not recommend a "flood test". In their leaf let I removed from a "Box Store" yesterday it mentions no flood testing at all - Install Kerdi and ready for tile it mentions (Pretty much sums up a Kerdi Install and mentions it's ready for tile).

    I find it odd as well that all the Orange fans on JB's site also do not recommend flood tests for the every day inquiry. Lots of advice about waiting to do the base last - but no one mentioning 24 - 72 hour tests.

    Search John Bridge's site and search "Kerdi Flood Testing" - you will most likely find the one example I did - and it leaked...

    I find it odd that every "Box" by one name across Canada doesn't even stock a 2" test plug. I checked with the help of my "Flooring Expert" he was so helpful. This same box does not even sell the Sku online.

    First things first - understand the building codes. Do you know your local code? Find out. Visit City Hall. Easy - Takes 20-30 minutes.

    Second step - call all the tile suppliers who also sell setting material. Ask for the names of 2-3 setters who purchase Red Guard, Aqua Defense, Hydro Ban, Kerdi, Wedi and equivalent on a regular basis. Maybe 20min - 120 minutes

    Step three call them all for a site visit. Be prepared. These men will be be busy and they have things to do. Have a list of questions ready. Ask how they waterproof and do they think it's necessary. Can you speak easley with them?

    Are they easy to understand?

    Review the quotes and reflect on your options. Pick the top three and ask for a quote. Compare apples to apples. These quotes must include waterproofing if this is whats required.

    I bought a couple test plugs yesterday at the other "Box" outlet and will pick up the various inflatable plugs tomorrow a my wholesalers.

    These steps needed to build and waterproof a shower are very unconveinent for a family of 4 with one bathroom. Not much fun at all.

    But you only need to do it once and if you ever tire of the look a Bullet Proof install can be tiled right over. I have removed 3 layers of tiles in an 100 year old house and the wall studs and sub floor where bone dry and in perfect condition. This a shower built with a Mud Job - walls and floor....

    Here is a picture of a 2" plug. If you live in Vancouver I have many and would be happy to lend you one for your test. I ask that you don't through away your scrap tile and cut it up into smaller pieces that we can donate to local preschools and the Capiliano University Art's programs. This pieces cost between $6.00 and $28.00 and we don't need one produced for every flood test.

    I would like to give Laticrete another plug because in both waterproofing videos I watched they at least mentioned flood testing.... They could show the plugging process better for the record as it is not shown at all.

    Schulter does not mention at all the process of flood testing in their leaf let that I picked up at the box - but their new online spec brouchure (
    http://www.schluter.com/media/ShowerHandbook.pdf) at least mentions waiting 24 hours to do any water tests. That was nice to see.

    But in the "Box" it does not mention it on the leaf let nor do they sell the plug to do so. I have also never seen this plug sold in my tile wholesaler.

    Does your "Box" sell 2" Test Plugs? Can you look for me?

    Regards,

    John Whipple

    A picture of a common twist and set 2" Test Plug;

    {{gwi:1477463}}

    More info on Schulter's Flood Testing here;

    "Other Considerations
    When Schluter-KERDI-SHOWER-ST tray dimensions do not match the dimensions of the shower compartment, the tray may be cut or extended with portland cement mortar.
    When Schluter®-KERDI and tile are installed on the ceiling, the solid backing and fasteners must be able to support the load of the tile and setting/grouting materials.
    Prior to setting tile, wait 24 hours minimum before water testing to allow for final set of thin-set mortar and ensure waterproof performance at seams and connections.
    Schluter®-Systems profiles may be used to finish and protect outside corners and eliminate the use of sealant at inside corners; see pages 21-22." *

    * Source; http://www.schluter.com/media/ShowerHandbook.pdf

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I find it odd that Schulter does not recommend a "flood test"."

    John, this is the "same ole same ole."

    I have yet to see installation instructions for a toilet that tell you to wipe your behind with toilet paper after defecating in the toilet. Not that I've really been looking though. lol

    Schluter sells a membrane. A single part of a larger system. It's up to the user to install it correctly and in compliance with local codes. It's up to the user to know how the individual pieces of the puzzle fit together and what is required by the authority having jurisdiction to complete that puzzle.

    If you had your way liability issues would force paperclip manufacturers to include a 65 page users manual with each box of paperclips.

    Seriously, blog all these things on your website, you'll be able to better consolidate all your topics there and keep them updated over there. Over here, they'll eventually disappear.

    When or if someone actually asks a question on one of these subjects, you can refer them to the content on your website.

    I guess we simply have differing opinions about this. I'm not of the mind that "it take a village to build a shower". I won't even include an iVillage pun in there. I'm more towards the "personal responsibility" end of the scale. I do something, I take responsibility for it.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The Same ole Same ole is broken.

    Schulter's products CAN build a "Bullet Proof" installation and I have built many. These showers need to be "Flood Tested" 24 hours by code.

    Laticrete on the flip side mentions flood testing and provides the specs on how to do it.

    Showers failing in under six months is "Crazy Talk" what a waste of materials. Lets teach people the rest of the puzzle and not say it's not their fault for not having a 68 page install book.

    In your Kerdi thread do you show how you flood tested it? In any regular writer on John's sight do they recommend weekly or showcase any of their own work under water test?

    In an Same ole Same ole renovation the plumber does the flood test. With these new "Setter" applied products it's the setter who needs to get them done...

    Not policed. Not Speedy. And who pays the hourly on watching the flood tests?

    I will do a much better job teaching my clients and will showcase all these drains and how to plug them. This I can do. And here in Vancouver I will lend out the plugs for free to aid in the cost of doing things properly. No reason to make a plug for every shower in the Country.

    Can you help me? Can you show us your next two or three flood tests or snap a picture of your Plumber's test?

    Any home owners out there please do the same. I have discovered that the Nobel Channel drain needs a slight "Tweak" to the fender washer to make a snug fit. That will help someone soon! Someone who thinks their test is failing when in fact the "Test Plug" is just not set properly.

    We should also talk about the best ways to secure ABS and PVC pipe properly to protect against the force applied on these drains while securing the plugs.

    We should test or plug before hand. A good trick many don't know is to make a test pipe to test the plug first. Then fill the drain after this test is done only an inch or so and let it sit while your Kerdi or Hydro Ban waterproofing sets up a day or so. That will help people too I think.

    What do you serious DIYer's out there think? Is this wrong what I'm suggesting? Do you not want to understand the whole process?

    JW

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "In your Kerdi thread do you show how you flood tested it?"

    No. But you already know that.

    Because it wasn't a thread on how to build a shower A-to-Z. It was a thread showing how I hang Kerdi membrane.


  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What do you serious DIYer's out there think? Is this wrong what I'm suggesting?

    What-- that you're the best, and the rest of us are remiss in the way we take care of our customers and just chasing our tails to be like as good as you?

    Yes. It's wrong. This is really starting to get old. You talk about putting together hybrid installations that sound like something the cat in the hat would think up, and then talk about how Mongo and I are good at what we do, but we don't even water test our showers??? Hmmmmmm......

    If you want to be insulting or accusatory, come straight out and say what you mean, John, instead of using innuendo, so you can attempt to look like the victim here when I reply to your bull$hit.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This DIYer thinks you are a windbag. You asked.

    You have said previously that the right way = your way, then went on to talk about using mastic over hydroban in your daughter's bathroom. You do invalid testing in a non-scientific manner. You rely on anecdotal "evidence" and refuse to listen to reason or experience. I certainly hope to never purchase a home from an enthusiastic DIYer who listened to you. You cause confusion at best and mayhem at worst.

    Like I said previously, wanting to make the industry better is a great goal. I wish you were actually doing that rather than behaving like a spoiled, boastful child.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This thread is inspired by my current project in Caulfield. If a proper water test was done this family would not be replacing not one but two showers in their yet to be completed renovation. This is crap. It's not right. And it is SO EASY to prevent.

    I am not boosting, nor bragging or showing off. I am trying to point out a hole in the internet knowledge. I have been asked with in these pages not to give half answers - I'm trying to educate better.

    Many people read these threads - not just the 30 - 60 regulars that browse and post on a regular basis. These pages are receiving roughly 500 hits per month. These stats easy tracked with Photo Bucket and file names. Who are these people?

    The professional men and women who work so hard in the "White Collar World" often come to these pages to educated themselves on their trades and the process. These forums introduced to me by a client worth Millions and it opened my eyes to the power these threads and open discussion have and the amount of information that can be learned in a short time.

    The discussion I spoke of referring to Mastic over drywall was advice given to me by 1 out of every 2 Box type outlets (Home Depot, Rona, Lowes type stores). It is a shame I demo so many of these showers to find mould, rot, bugs, droppings and on and on. The thread if you re read it will explain this.

    Why are showers built this way every day here in North America? The same old same old way. Good if you are going to Flip it. Fast. Good if you want to make a buck. But really - do you think it is the right way to build a shower?

    It's wrong and I'm working on trying to fix it.

    I'm sorry that this thread upsets you three so much. Why not ask the other guys what their thoughts are? Ask them how to flood test these showers if you think my ways or approach is wrong. Educated your selves.

    I mention time and time again to double and triple check facts. This is why. In Fine Home Building Magazine you wait till the following issue to ensure there is no retractions - often there are.

    These 24 - 72 hour tests will bug the tile setters - for sure. Many will not want to do them. Many don't and if they don't want too or you can't afford the extra labour - Do them yourself. What could possibly go wrong?

    I'll keep posting. People will learn what to look for. Not many - who really is listening to one bathroom renovator in North Vancouver.

    Lets see who will help me with this plan of mine. I'll post my projects. I show you how I do it. If I'm making a mistake please tell me.

    I am not even close to being fully trained and have much to learn. I like to learn in this open environment and share my discoveries with all.

    What harm will come from more people learning how to "Flood Test" their, Red Guard, Aquadefense, Kerdi, Hydro Ban, Nobel or other shower pan?

    It's code. It's required.

    I'm just following the rules that I'm required to insure my insurance will protect me and my clients. My subs are insured. My crew covered. I have a valid Vancouver Contractor License. I'm just doing my job .

    This is what we do. This is what we are suppose to do.

    Call your city hall. See if I'm wrong. Ask your building inspector.

    Don't trust me. Double check.

    In North Vancouver this is required by code. So if you build your own Kerdi Shower or decide to do a nice Hydro Ban shower - how do you "Flood Test" it?

    You need to know.

    I'm proud of my work and love to show case it every chance I get. If this come across as boasting I can't apologize for that. We do many high end renovations and I like to show them off.

    JW

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I hope Bill, Mongo and the others showcase their work..."

    John, see, here's the thing...

    I'm not here to showcase my work. I'm not here to use these forums as a personal web page, or as my very own "dear diary", or to post "this is the work I did today" threads.

    I'm here to answer questions that people ask. That's it.

    I've posted one pictoral thread, the Kerdi Thread. That was because I was getting so much email about the topic and there were some many threads asking about it I thought it'd be best to pop it all out there at once.

    Guess who took the photos? An editor from Fine HomeBuilding magazine.

    FHB has turned into a DIY magazine since the editorial reins shifted a couple of years ago. It used to be a wonderful trade magazine. It's pretty much fluff these days, the magazine is far away from the "Fine" that is once was.

    Flood testing is not a big deal. You plug it, you fill it with water, you come back and see if the water level has stayed the same or dropped. It's up to the inspector to determine that a flood test has been done. If he's not checking, he's not doing his work.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If he's not checking, he's not doing his work.

    If the inspection is not called how can he know to check?

    Mongo you have all the right answers and have help thousands of people fore sure for sure. I'm not after you or Bill I'm saying help me raise the bar. Tell people this stuff needs to be checked.

    It's not right a young family buys a new Condo and they have to fix the shower 2 years later when they are tapped out fincially. The previous owner might not have skipped the "Flood Test" if he/she only knew it had to be done. But guess what - another "Flip" another "Crap" shower and another F150 or two in the landfill...

    People come to these pages to learn. To ask for help. To be guided through a process...

    A Flood Test;

    Why is this simple step left out of the equation? I think because it's risky. I think it's because people are scared. I think it's because most people just don't care enough to spend the time to find all the answers.

    I want to reduce landfill waste. I know how to build bathrooms. I can help others build their's better.

    I bet I will save more bathrooms from harm with this one little thread than all my other text put together...

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Where to order or Two Inch Test plugs. I did a quick search and here are a few places that sell these 2" test plugs needed for 'Flood Testing' most showers....

    $2.79 - www.doitbest.com

    http://doitbest.com/Main.aspx?PageID=64&SKU=419700&utm_source=RatePoint&utm_medium=CSE&utm_term=419700&utm_content=6790&utm_campaign=DATAFEED

    $6.31 - www.plumbersurplus.com

    http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/Mueller-154-007-Test-Plug/165392/Cat/354

    Any plumber wholesaler would have them.

    Currently Home Depot Canada does not stock a 2' test plug to my knowledge.

    In Vancouver you can borrow one of mine - no charge. Just email me...

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    On John Bridges site there is fine example of an Kerdi Flood Test. This should be the standard.

    Here is the link - -> http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31575

    I find John Bridge's last post on this thread most alarming that only 1 of 50 showers was ever tested. Is he not the leading authority on Kerdi Installations? Just saying...

    These tests are required by code and many people here send people there for Kerdi Advice. All most every one their suggests more education and many suggest further reading. Great advice!

    Get three online opinions and then go to city hall and ask. Print out the thread of John's and give it to your inspector. He might tell you that Kerdi is the bomb and if you use Kerdi it's OK - Skip the water testing.... :) Or NOT.

    Keep searching people - this one little $6.00 part can save you thousands. Can insure your tile setter takes his time and does the job right.

    These means when the Kerdi is installed - it's time to wait - then time to flood.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My thread about "Flood Testing Kerdi / Hydro Ban" on DIY Chatroom was just pulled?

    Strange. Why would that happen?

    JW

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "My thread about "Flood Testing Kerdi / Hydro Ban" on DIY Chatroom was just pulled? Strange. Why would that happen? "

    Unless their moderators hang out over here...which I doubt...you might get a better answer by asking over there.

    As to this thread:
    "If the inspection is not called how can he know to check? "

    I say "exactly". If your aiming this at DIYers and they are doing permitted work, calling and getting the proper inspections is part of the permitting process. It's up to the homeowner and the inspector to see that things are properly done. If the DIYer is doing unpermitted work, then of course they won't get an inspection.

    If someone hires a contractor who is doing unpermitted work, then again, they are rolling the dice. If the work is permitted, then again, it's up to the inspector to do the inspection, or to not sign off on the job it the proper tests were not done.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Permits may not be required in many homes if the client owns it and it's a detached home. Often these no change of use renovations do not need inspections.

    If however it is a multi unit housing - most time the client or home owner is not allowed to rough the plumbing and electrical service in. They don't tell you this at the stores. This information you need to find out yourself.

    So if the inspector is not coming - does that mean it does not need to be checked? NO NO NO.....

    Do your own inspection. Inspect your own work or that of your contractor. Do you really want to pay someone for the job to find out in six months you need a $12,000.00 remodel for your remodel. For the sake of 3-6 days and a proper flood test?

    Makes no sense to me. This is why you check....

    Flood your work people!!!

    JW

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago
  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks a lot, mongoct! Now I have to clean the coffee off of my monitor and keyboard. Perhaps I should file suit for the damages since you clearly intended to be humorous but failed to post a warning first, ROTFLMAO. If you don't play nice I'm going to take my toys out of the sandbox and stomp home. Best laugh I've had all day!

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    John,

    You said "Do you find it shocking that most "Box Stores" don't even sell the plugs to preform this test.... I don't. I'm sure they want your project to fail."

    If there was a large enough demand for them, the box stores would sell them. It's about supply and demand, not a desire for the client's project to fail.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Why would you flood something that is "Magic"*. This is how Kerdi is described in at least one post on John Bridge's site.

    {{gwi:1477465}}


    It is safe to say that the John Bridge Tile Forum is the obvious leading online authority - and over there no one recommends "Flood Testing". Check for your self and then call City Hall.

    No demand - No Supply.

    No Schooling - No higher Education.

    No Flood Test - No piece of mind.

    A hole the size of a pin will leak about 3 gallons of water per year or much more...

    I'll measure what the drip out rate is for a roofing nail or dropped trowel. Stand by for more updates...

    The link below is to a Video Test my daughter and I ran to test out this "Magic Properties"...

    * Source; http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31575&page=2

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Apples and oranges.

    Your "literal" pinhole isn't the same as the pinhole or "vortex" pinhole that occurs when Kerdi is folded over on itself in a conical shape. That's what they are referring to over on the jb forums.

    But you probably already knew that because it's so obvious. But I thought I'd point that out to the casual reader.

    And in real-world applications, jb doesn't advise depending on the surface tension of water to prevent water from penetrating his version of a "vortex pinhole" that occurs when Kerdi is folded over on itself. In a real-world shower, he wrote that it was just a demonstration and that he uses a dab of sealant to seal any of those areas in real shower.

    But you probably read that too, so again, I'm pointing that out to the casual reader.

    I'm surprised that your calculations are only for continuous 12-hour immersion and not for continuous 24-hour immersion. I figured you'd go for the worst-case scenario. Even though it's highly unlikely that anyone would have standing water in a shower for that long.

    You should post your rebuttle over on the johnBridge forums, since that's the source of the information about which you are complaining.

    Regardless, it's all moot. I recommend you complain about the content of other forums on those forums. Complaining here does no good at all.

    If someone else had made this post and asked for feedback from gardenweb folk, that would be one thing. But since no one did, again, you're posting unsolicited content and that makes this information best reserved for you posting it on your blog or on your website.

    You asked me way back when to tell you when I thought stuff should be on your blog versus posted here on gardenweb, so here I am...

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    See this is what I am talking about - invalid, not to mention ridiculously unnecessary testing performed in a non-scientific manner, benefiting no-one, except that it might increase your on-line visibility. Does a membrane leak with a hole in it? What happens if you glue tile down with construction adhesive? If you fail to protect a membrane and then drop a sharp tool on it, will it damage the membrane? If you install a drain that is too small, will it flood? How many GC's does it take to build a non-code-compliant shower? How much do you suppose this building weighs?

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just reread my post. John, no malice intended on my part. Just trying to help things along.

    Hey, do the same experiment again. This time add soap to the water. It'll break down the surface tension of the water, you might get increased flow. Fun lesson for you and your daughter.

    Best, Mongo

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "...You will see that not only is there a pinhole in the bottom of the cone, but there is nothing at all in the seam. Holding it just as I'm holding it in the picture, water will not go through the pinhole or the seam. It's magic..." *

    * Source; http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=31575&page=2

    Mongo did you read the text with the picture? What is a Vortex and what does that have to do with a pinhole and water not leaking out of it.

    If it was a square piece of wax paper, tin foil, plastic wrap, sandwich bag or any other water proof material I would not be surprised if you coned it up and it didn't leak - there waterproof materials. Of course you can. I can make a cup with my hands and the seam won't "Leak".



    Excuse my ignorance but I tried twisting the cone from a rectanglepiece of Kerdi and even tried taping it to make it as tight as possible. Reading the text above with a picture of Kerdi twisted into a cone filled with water I thought it some how repelled water and that the fibers of the kerdi where some how repellant like the way "Water Stridders" float on water.

    My mistake. Of course I understand how to make a "Vortex" this is how I do my shower pan corners. The Vortex creates 3 plys and we thin set all the layers. How do you think I hung the test "Vortex" on my Kitchen faucet with two spring clamps?

    I bet I'm not the only one fooled by this stunt...

    "It's Magic"*

    No - its a miss leading and wrong...

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "A vortex can be any circular or rotary flow. Perhaps unexpectedly, not all vortices possess vorticity. Vorticity is a mathematical concept used in fluid dynamics. It can be related to the amount of "circulation" or "rotation" in a fluid. In fluid dynamics, vorticity is the circulation per unit area at a point in the flow field. It is a vector quantity, whose direction is (roughly speaking) along the axis of the swirl. The vorticity of a free vortex is zero everywhere except at the center, whereas the vorticity of a forced vortex is non-zero. Vorticity is an approximately conserved quantity, meaning that it is not readily created or destroyed in a flow. Therefore, flows that start with minimal vorticity, such as water in a basin, create vortices with minimal vorticity, such as the characteristic swirling and approximately free vortex structure when it drains. By contrast, fluids that initially have vorticity, such as water in a rotating bowl, form vortices with vorticity, exhibited by the much less pronounced low pressure region at the center of this flow. Also in fluid dynamics, the movement of a fluid can be said to be vortical if the fluid moves around in a circle, or in a helix, or if it tends to spin around some axis. Such motion can also be called solenoidal. In the atmospheric sciences, vorticity is a property that characterizes large-scale rotation of air masses. Since the atmospheric circulation is nearly horizontal, the (3 dimensional) vorticity is nearly vertical, and it is common to use the vertical component as a scalar vorticity. Mathematically, vorticity is defined as the curl of the fluid velocity :" *

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Mongo did you read the text with the picture?"

    Yes, it would have been remiss of me to comment without doing so.

    "What is a Vortex and what does that have to do with a pinhole and water not leaking out of it."

    A true vortex has nothing to do with any of this with the exception that it's the word that jb used to describe what he thought would happen. He wrote: "I called the pinhole a "vortex," meaning I suspected water would run through there at an accelerated rate."

    I'm not certain if you're on the same page regarding how this Kerdi cone was made. You say you're getting three plies, you should only be getting two. Yes, it was made out of a square piece of Kerdi...with a cut in it though. I gather you did yours from a piece of Kerdi with no cut in it.

    Anyhow...


    Above: Start with a square piece of Kerdi with a cut in one edge.


    Above: See the two "legs"? Start to pull one leg over the other.


    Above: The more you slide one leg over the other, the more conical the square becomes.


    Above: See the hole on the bottom of the cone? That's where jb thought the water would run out, like a "vortex". I made this photo a little larger to better see the "hole" but the photo is starting to pixelate.


    Above: Snug it up and the hole disappears. It's still there obviously, but it's closed up as the membrane snugged up to itself.


    Above: A look at the side. See how this is only two plies and not three. And see how the "seam that doesn't leak" is a simple overlap of one leg overlapped on the other?

    The cone in your experiment, it sounds like you misunderstood the demonstration. It looks like you took an uncut square of kerdi, folded it in half, then folded it again in quarters, then opened it up into a cone. That would give you three plies on one side of the cone like you said you had and one ply on the other. It looks that way in your video too.

    With your cone there would be no natural pinhole in the bottom of the cone for water to leak through. Or not leak through.

    The thing to try to understand is that a pin or a needle was never involved in jb's demonstration. There is no man-made pinhole. The "pinhole" in jb's demostration is the naturally occurring "hole" that you see at the bottom of the cone in my 4th photo, and with the cone snugged tight, you don;t see it in the 5th photo.

    Does this clarify things a bit?

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Of course there is no magic. To a certain extent it's science. It's surface tension.

    Make the cone as I described out of a piece of dry Kerdi, add water, and no water will drip through the "pinhole" or get through the simple overlapped seam.

    Now open up the Kerdi and let the water flow out. Rub a little dishsoap around the pinhole location and on both sides of the previous seam. Wet the kerdi on both sides, get it slightly soapy and wet.

    Fold it back up into a cone and add water. The soap reduces the surface tension in the water, allowing it to flow more easily. You'll be more likely to get flow out of the seam and through the pinhole.

    Science. Not magic.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I haven't been here for a while. For a minute I thought I'd stumbled onto the plumbing forum by mistake.

    I've always appreciated guys like Bill Vincent and others sharing their experience without "size contests".

    If someone wants to brag about their "higher standards" LOL I suggest they put it on their own website.

    "We floodtest each and every installation unlike our competitors"

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    See how well once again you explain things!

    Did it Leak? Did it not flood through the seam?

    Please post a video of your test.

    Please re read the only thread on John's site and tell me that "Many" people might not think Kerdi is "Magic".

    The post is up there - go look at it.

    Thanks for your advice!

    Why don't you help me? Recommend these "Flood Tests" with your copy?

    You have more training? You write ten times better than me? Please help me educate people about the importance of these "Flood Tests".

    I need your help...

    Please.

    John Whipple

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mongo I have tried three versions of your demonstration and they all leak.

    What am I doing wrong?

    I'll upload a video and some pictures so you can tell me what I'm not doing right.

    How hard do you have to twist it to get a waterproof seal?

    Does Kerdi need this "Vortex" in the corners?

    JW

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Please send me your address and I will mail you some Kerdi.

    I can't seam to figure it out.

    Maybe you all can help me prove this does work.

    I have lots of Kerdi - who wants to prove me wrong...

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I seem to be in a bit of a pickle and was hoping someone here can help me out. I didn't have time to read this whole thread. I am putting in my Kerdi shower and want to do a flood test. I went to 4 of my local Home Depot's iin the Toronto area and NONE of them had a 2" test plug. Can you believe that? Why sell the Kerdi products if they can't sell the test plugs to do a flood test? Anyways, I'm wondering if anyone knows where I can get one? I don't feel right not flood testing my new pan.

    Does anyone have a picture of this Miss Leading lady? She sounds beautiful. If she's in Toronto hopefully she can post here...

    Thanks in advance. HELP!

    Dan

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Try plumbing supply stores for test plugs. If plumbing supply stores are strictly wholesale in your area, call your local plumbers. Failing that, you can order online - there are lots of places you can purchase what you need. If time is an issue, you can use a toy ball, one of those flexible ones that are filled with air and twist tightly into your drain pipe.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You need to get a good fit and I have never tried a rubber ball. I would advice against this as you may not get a proper seal and you do not need to loose sleep over a failed Kerdi Flood Test when in fact it was just a bad seal.

    Careful who's advice you follow on line and always double and triple check your facts. I suggest as well starting a thread on John Bridges site for even a larger pool of answers.

    I like the inflatable test plugs or test balls by Cherne. I buy them from my local plumbing wholesaler here on the North Shore (Bartle & Gibson).

    Follow all the safety procedures and read the pressure charts carefully.

    Call Cherne and find out where they are sold in your home town. Post the findings for us to make future searches easier on the internet for your friends and neighbors;

    Cherne Industries

    5700 Lincoln Drive
    Minneapolis, MN 55436

    Customer Service
    Phone: 800-843-7584
    Fax: 800-843-7585

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I managed to hold water in test number 4 for about 20 seconds and then the drips started flying out.

    I posted another three minute video and perhaps Mongo can watch it and tell me what I'm doing wrong.

    The link is here;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4ZuVI1-5oQ

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Mongo I have tried three versions of your demonstration and they all leak. What am I doing wrong?"

    I tool a quick look at your video. When you make your cone, you overlap the two legs. One leg goes "inside" the cone, the other "outside".

    It looks like you're allowing the outside leg to flop loose, that's allowing the outside leg and the cone to "unwind", which loosens the wrapping and allows the pinhole to open up just a tad.

    I just did it and it held water for about a minute. No leaks, I didn't feel like holding it for longer.


    Above: Pinching here allows the outside leg to unwind.


    Above: Pinching here holds the cone closed.

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I need some else to try it! With video. Live testing. Like mine.

    Lets see your video! I'll mail 3 pieces to anyone anywhere in the world.

    Send me your address - Just Promise me you film it...

    "I love Mad Lab time"

    JW

    PS Mongo I'm going to work on those punch tools you helped me design. Have you ever used a large slab under a free standing tub? We have an oval tub that will be bordered by River Rock and I think the tub will not look so nice with a ruff tie in. I was thinking of milling up some slate slab scrap and then set the tub in with a loose mortar mix and shimmy it down flush with the slate. I was thnking about maybe a 1" reveal all around and chip the edges a little rough...

    Thoughts...

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I noticed a lot of chatter and some new threads that mentioned Flood Testing and water testing this week on the John Bridge Tile Forum. I'm glad to see it. I hope my complaining in some way helped with this.

    My local Schulter rep Bob Weins emailed me as well last week to get together and "Talk". I asked Bob to help me with a favour and he said he would try. I said we would get together after this and sadly Bob and I have not met.

    Well a week has gone by and my favour has not been done. I feel another round of Schulter / John Bridge Tile Forum "Myth Busters" is in order.

    Does anyone know what Head Water Pressure is? Sounds impressive!

    I will be making some pressure tests for my new Kerdi Flood tests I have planned for this Friday. I can't wait. This will be so much fun.

    I'm sure the young men will make some reference to giant "Beer" cans and those who have read Mr. Bridges EBooks will see the humor in that. I do.

    How did Schulter build a 21' tower - or was it 21 stories. I can't remember - It was a tall tale...

    Stand by results.

    Who is going to show me the Vortex test working for the record. A week and no one can prove me wrong. Come on men it's not Magic is it!

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have had 2 threads deleted by the folks on DIY Chatroom.

    Seams over there you can help people unless they ask for it.

    Can anyone here ask me this question over there please. I want to play by the rules...

    Thank you - John whipple

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    John, if you are having a problem with another website or another forum you need to be dealing with the administrators of those sites rather than dragging your issues over here. This is entirely inappropriate behavior if you do, in fact, "want to play by the rules..."

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    These forums are for people looking the learn. Looking for answers. You waste a lot of effort keeping tabs on me and you only further my cause. Every time you post you keep the thread active. The search engines monitor this activity and rank it even higher.

    Thank you Alice. Please keep after me. Maybe point out my poor grammar or sentence structure.

    Flood testing your showers is so important. Look at the shear number of threads in these pages with people in tough spots. Families grinding it out every day and then are faced to repair a "Crappy" job - when they where looking for "Turn Key" home and maxed out their lending to do so.

    It's not fair. No No No.

    I'm bring awareness to a code required inspection. Not a Water Test. But a 24 - 72 hour flood test that is inspected by the city. Code. Fact. Look it up.

    How many "Flood Tests" have you seen mentioned in these pages? It's not the fun stuff. It's not shinny? It does not come in "Off White" or "Bright White".

    It's boring.

    It holds up the job.

    It costs more.

    Things can go wrong and then cost more again.

    Why talk about it?

    BECAUSE IT IS A CODE REQUIRED STEP

    and one that protects not only you but the people you sell your home to.

    Kids bathe there. Think about it.

    I'm sorry if it is not "Cyber Space Friendly" but the system is broken and the proof is behind every black piece of Silicone...

    You might be breathing it right now. You baby might sleep up against that wall. Think about it.

    Do more. It's easy. Just work harder.

    My thoughts,

    John Whipple

  • 14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The search engines monitor this activity and rank it even higher.

    Not quite sure with the tone of this thread that that's a good thing.