Ya'al:

Go to the AMERICAN DERRINGER site and have a talk with Lady Derringer (A woman owns the company.).

They make some 410 gauge 2-shot derringers that are small, handy, and accurate enough to hit a rattlers head at a distance slightly further than a shovel.

If you are worried about missing, they make some of those derringers with slightly longer barrels for more accuracy.

And for crying out loud, if you have to shoot them, gut, skin, and prepare them for a meal.

Ruudman

Sheesh! I have lived in this house for 12 years. Been in Phoenix for 26 years. But like Jeff, I am more freaked out now after this thread.

Matt, I was afraid the snake would strike me as I tried to hit it. It makes sense though that it would try to strike the shovel. This particular snake was slithering past the picnic table; it wasn't even in strike mode.

I like the Derringer idea, but not sure about eating it. I recently heard that no matter how much you cook snake, it still has live parasite! Fact or Fiction?

If the derringer's limitation of 2 shots bothers you, Taurus firearms has a 6 shot pistol with barrel sizes from 2" up to 6" chambered for the 410 gauge shotgun shell.

For crying out loud, we eat mussels and clams that filter impurities from water.

I don't believe snake meat has any parasites in it that aren't killed in the cooking of the meat.

Ruudman

Geez, I think I'm going to stop reading this thread too!

Just after my "how to kill a rattler" primer above, I heard the dogs going nuts again, and sure enough, found another rattler by the pool in the backyard -- again dispatched with extreme prejudice with my trusty shovel. I was probably the most calm I had ever been while doing it. I guess the process of trying to tell others how to do it helped me too! This one was a Northern Pacific rattler, only about 3 feet. (And it turns out that the one I got earlier this week was just under 4 feet, not the 5 feet I originally estimated. Funny how they seem bigger when you're going after them.)

And ruddman, I really don't think a .410 is going to do it, both because of too little firepower and because I almost always find the snakes up against my foundation or other structure. Literally everyone around me is armed to the teeth (you oughta see my walnut-growing neighbor going after squirrels with his .357 mag), and all prefer a shovel for snakes. It is a sure thing. We save the shotguns for skunks.

peace out,
Matt

Matt,
I've been practicing with the square edged shovel, but there's a problem. At a distance of about ten feet my aim isn't too bad, but at more realistic distances of thirty or forty feet (the closest I would reasonably get to a rattler), my aim just goes to heck...what's that? You're not supposed to throw the shovel at the snake? You're supposed to walk right up to the snake and chop its head off? Yeah, right. Where's that shotgun?

jp

Oruboris - thanks for the info. I live in the Oregon high desert area, and the long term locals here claim they just never see them up in the mountains. I feel very very lucky now, after reading your post - I ride and hike extensively all over our ranch, and if there were any, I would have encountered them by now. Even though I haven't, I do still look for them, as I did find a couple of tiny minature scorpions (locals did say we had those). Of course, it is the cougars that catch all the attention here - always see scat/tracks, but dh saw one in the flesh just two weeks ago. Quite the experience.

What state do you live in, if you don't mind sharing? I mentioned your post to dh, and he too thinks we lucked out - he thought he remembered that there are rattlers up high in the Rocky Mountains in Colorado.

And Jeff - what state do you live in or what is your local climate like?

And as to the shovel/hoe thing, fwiw dh's grandma used to regularly dispatch the things with her hoe. He said she would see one, thwack it, go right back to watching the kids and cooking. She lived in Kansas.

Remodeler Matt:

Don't sell the little 410 short. Loaded with no. 4 shot or larger, it will still riddle the head of a rattler and give you greater potential for a hit than a single bullet. If you go to no. 6 or smaller shot, you may have to finish it off with a brick or shovel, but shooting against a stone foundation at an angle so that the pellets don't ricochet back at you won't be that damaging out of a short barreled pistol.

Of course if you have a rattler near something soft and valuable (Like your daughters boyfriend hiding under the wading pool because you came home unexpectedly.), you could always use a solid stream version of engine starter which has ether as its main component and still keeps you further away from the snake than a shovel.

Doubleshot:

Been reading a lot lately of cougars attacking and killing bikers and hikers in California (Should train the cats to go after some of the politicians.). I hope you are smart enough to carry animal potency repellant on a lanyard if carrying a firearm is unsettling to you.

Stay safe and scr_w the politically correct mantra.

Ruudman

JP: hilarious. Perhaps we can establish the "30-yard shovel toss" as a new olympic event....

Doubleshot: you can find the western rattler up to about 8,000 feet in elevation throughout the Rocky Mountain West. The higher you go, the fewer you find, but I've seen them right up to the timber line. Its cousin, the prairie rattler, is also found throughout the West, but generally in more open territory. We have only the Northern Pacific rattler here in NorCal.

And Ruudman: thanks for the advice, but I'll stick with the shovel. The last thing I need to worry about when going after one next to my house is ricochets.

We also have cougars here, and I did a lot of research on them after practically running over one while walking the dogs. As long as you don't run, and aren't tiny, you have very little to fear from them. If you have small kids or pets around, that's a different story.

Finally, I saw that far more people in the West die from bee and wasp stings than die from snake bites or cougar attacks. In fact, according to one site, there's only been about 20 confirmed deaths from cougar attacks in the West in recorded history. Of course, when it does happen, every news organization in the country carries it. "If it bleeds it leads!" Hype, hype, hype.

Hmmm, I wonder what's the best firearm for wasp attacks....

Keeping things in perspective,
Matt

Matt:

For wasp attacks, some watchmakers in Switzerland make a miniature replica of Colts Python that really shoots really little bullets which they also make and sell.

The revolver is just slightly larger than the width of an average thumb, and it shoots.

Check it out on the web as it is an unbelievable functioning miniature firearm.

Ruudman

Ruudman - Some of our cougars have become more aggressive these days - the ban on hunting with dogs is modifying their previous wary behavior.

And not to worry - PC pales in comparison to the value I place on my life, so I carry food, first aid, and a firearm on the trail. So far, nothing has been used but the food, but why be a fool about things? My biggest problem is that due to bad shoulders and the distances I travel, I have to carry a very lightweight pistol. Told dh not to worry, if faced with an aggressive cougar, I will be still and wait to aim my small caliber right as kitty gets close and leaps... Gee, he doesn't find this as amusing as I do:)

Matt - thanks for the Rocky Mt. snake info. And the bee sting perspective too. After all, my cows hang out there day/night and I am not losing them daily to predators, not so far; OTOH I am mindful that our neighbor's cows blew uphill through 3 fences (that would be crossing 80 steep timbered rocky acres up to and through our mountain) - and that takes a chasing predator of some kind to get that kind of action. My motto is be prepared for the worst and then hope for the best:)

We've got state park and national forest all around us. DH and DS have both seen cougars but not many sightings over the 20 years we've lived here. But this year is different. Within a week there was a female with 2 cubs and then about 5 days later a big male- both sightings were only a 1/4 mile from our lot. Couple of weeks later someone hit a bobcat just up the street. Then something that looked just like a cougar but without a tail ran in front of our car early one evening. And no it wasn't a bobcat, thing was close to 3 feet tall and maybe 70-75 pounds.

Three rattlesnakes in less than 24 hours.
Thought you might like to see a photo of one of our little visitors ~

As the weather gets warmer, the reptiles are more active. Please be careful.

Awww, Lorraineal--dang, that's evoking sympathy over here in similar snake country... NOOO! I'm mad at myself as (strangely!!) that critter seems nearly cute!

I need to reread RemodelerMatt's instructions, as I will need to be killing at least a few poisonous snakes. Granite fabricator lady killed a SCORPION in my unfinished living room today. Arrrgghh-the carnage I see in my future--wished I were anyway less "soft".....

Actually, Ive caught and relocated so many of these things that I have to guard against become complacent about and around them. They are actually quite lovely in a snakey sort of way. And for the most part, they are relatively docile and only want to get away from us intruding humans.

Only, they can also kill you if they are so inclined to try.

Fortunately, the initial shock never seems to diminish. I swear the sight of a poisonous snake goes straight to that primal part of your brain without passing through your conscience mind first. I never fail to jump and let out a squeak when I first catch sight of one.

Remember my earlier post about the 2 year old up the street that was bitten by the rattlesnake? Well it turned out that the little boy is the son of Animal Planet's "Venom ER" specialist Dr. Sean Bush. Believe me, if you ever get bitten by a rattlesnake this is the man you want to take care of you!
Anyway, Dr Bush went on the news and to the local papers to explain what happened. Apparently while Bush was treating 5 other snake bite victims that day, his son Jude saw a baby rattler in their yard. Being a good little boy he wanted to pick the snake up for his daddy and put it in one of the gages they keep in their garage. Because of his specialty, Dr Bush keeps venomous snakes, spiders and scorpions at his home. Of course all of those are properly contained. Because Jude has seen his daddy handle snakes before he wanted to help too.
How ironic is that?

Very ironic, Kats!

I have a few more questions:

1) How far can a snake strike? Can they "jump" at you or only extend as far as their own body?

2) If they bite you once and you panic, do they continue to strike or do they immediately recoil once they've bitten?

3) If you get the anti-venom right away, will their still be tissue damage?

4) If you encounter one close enough to bite you, are you supposed to freeze or slowly move out of the way?

Hey Houseful:
Well I guess I've become somewhat of a herpetologist with all the research I've done since moving to rattler country. I'll assume you mean rattlers, rathern than just "snakes." According to the experts, and backed with my personal experience, here's the answers to your questions:

1. A rattler can only strike out between a thrid to half of its body length. So, for a 3-foot snake, it can only strike out between a foot and a foot and a half. Some snakes can actually leap off the ground and propel themselves much further than that, but none of those are in North America, and only a couple are poisonous.

2. They will bite repeartedly if they are in pain, but if they only feel threatened, and are not in pain, they generally stop striking when they feel they can get away, which is what they prefer to do. I've seen them strike and strike and strike at the shovel when hit. However, I've read that these are often "dry" bites, as the snake generally reserves its poison for hunting. Estimates are that 40-50% of bites from adult snakes are dry, meaning no venom is injected.

3. Yes. If the fangs sink in, there will always be some tissue damage. The damage is primarily created by the fang itself, not the venom. Immediate injection of antivenim (correct spelling, though it is often spelled "antivenom" or "antivenene") will slow or even stop the progression of the poison, but it does nothing concerning the swelling and tissue damage typically created by snake fangs. The swelling is treated by an anti-inflammatory medicine, such as Benadryl. The poison often creates a burning sensation at the wound, which is often treated by use of cold packs, though it is not advised that this is done anywhere but under medical treatment because of the potential for frostbite. The antivenim is an antibody that attacks and destroys the poison directly in the blood stream, so it has only limited effect near the wound.

4. No sudden moves is the key. You don't want to appear to be a threat to the snake. Slowly move away. Be assured that they almost never strike unless unless they feel threatened. In cooler hours, they can be remarkably docile. A friend and I were out camping and while he was out doing his morning "business" he put his hand right on a coiled rattler sitting on a rock next to him. But it was about 50 degrees out, and the snake didn't even hardly move. They are often found on rocks or concrete at twilight, as they try to absorb the heat.

Hope that helps.
Matt

Thank you; that's great information. Between this and the Do and Don't list, I feel much better prepared. We've got 3 square-nosed shovels around here that we must sharpen right away. Our emergency personnel could be here within minutes should we have to call them. And, Matt, I'd say your friend got quite lucky!

Thought some of you would be interested in this story. The link takes you to the story first so pictures won't show right away. However, they are not for the faint of heart.

Wow, that makes you sit up and take notice!
G-kids (7 & 5) are coming this weekend for a visit. Think I'll go out right now and walk the perimeter...........

You republicans move out to a pristine rural area, build a big house and yard, talk about God's country and the natural unspoiled beauty, and then proceed to kill off everything you're afraid of/ don't understand. In the 1800's and early 1900's it was- grizzly bears, wolves, mountain lions, and other predators. Now its rattlesnakes. I live in the East where they've already been eliminated from many states (along with cougars and wolves). Its like history repeats itself and we never learn. Open a book and learn about the natural environment you're building your house on instead of killing of everything that's not a butterfly or your dog.

Ya know... I've been thinking that here we have a thread that has gone to 75 posts without a single bit of nastiness.

Been wondering when someone was going to get malicious.

Now that the snarky factor's been so graciously taken care of, of we can all get back to our regularly scheduled thread of dealing with the life-and-death issue of living with real-life rattlesnakes and their bites.

Nuff said.

Hmmmm, I moved to a rural environment, built a (big is relative) house, have a big yard, and we actually leave the copperheads and water moccasins (one one is the tomato patch yesterday) alone when we come across them, with the exception of the one at the back door.

So,winged mammal, your theory just went somewhere in a hand basket.
Open your mind.

Lorraineal:

Except for labeling everyone Republicans, I find nothing malicious about Winged Mammals remarks.

Every time I come upon someone who is against hunting and condemns me for being willing to kill the "Bambis" of the world, I ask the objecting party if they eat meat.

I can understand Winged Mammals thought processes even though I myself would probably kill poisonous snakes near my abode. I would however process them for food as I hear they do taste good.

Ruudman

Ohhhh....somebody's having a bad Father's Day!

On a wonderful note, g-babies came and played in our big back yard and played in the RiteAid $19.00 pool we bought for the current 100* temps and had a wonderful weekend!
And, no nasty pristine rural area rattlesnakes were sighted.
Ain't life grand!

Hmmm . . . my neighbors will be VERY surprised, stunned actually, to learn that they are . . . republicans! LOL!

Or maybe tell that to Barbara Streisand who lives in a BIG house in pristine rural Malibu-Santa Monica Mountains. Prime slither country!
I'm sure she'll just love being called that shudder... "R"... word!
To Funny, :)

Sorry Lorraineal, I couldn't help it! ;)

This message is mainly for remodeler_mat, the acclaimed herpetologist of the bunch; although perhaps many of you can assist. I live in the southeastern region of NC. I have a 128 acre farm with a ditch running through the property and 80 of the acres being wooded. No, I can't sell the property and or get the 2 mile ditch filled in with dirt and the county won't do it for me either. I killed a 2 foot rattlesnake on my path to the garden last year. Last evening (at dusk), my 3 year old daughter was stepping out of the golf cart at the back door and just by chance was running in leaps and leaped over a copperhead who subsequently coiled in strike position. We live 30 minutes from the nearest hospital or Urgent Care. I have read all the emergency treatments for snake bites posted. If she were bitten by a copperhead, cotton mouth moccasin, or rattlesnake on an upper extremity, head, or trunk,(and I would have to drive her because it takes EMS over 2 hours to get out here and helicopters only fly in after EMS' request)would I make it to the hospital in time to save her life?

bccfnp,

My 5 year old g-son almost got bit last year by a diamond back rattlesnake. Plus all the close calls I've posted about on this thread. And we've already killed two now in our driveway this summer. So I can only tell you, I understand your fear.
Here's the only link I can help you with. It's written by Dr Sean Bush that I wrote about on this thread before. He is the foremost venom specialist in the nation and on-call if Pres. Bush (no relation) is ever bitten in Crawford. The link is about moccasins and copperheads. If I were you, I would email Loma Linda University where Dr Bush works, or better yet, contact the nearest venom specialist who knows your area. I'd ask him or her what the course of action should be for you and your family in the event of envenomation.

Here's the link! ;)

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic539.htm

Great link there, kats. I really can't add anything to it. There is so much variation between species of snakes, and even between individual snakes, that it would be very difficult to answer your question exactly, bccfnp. I can tell you that fatalities are actually quite rare -- way more people are killed by lightning and bees than are killed by snakes. And 30 minutes should be enough time to get to treatment in time to prevent major problems in the vast majority of cases.

As time goes by we've become more accustomed to living with them, and I leave them alone when I see them outside the yard. But we always lecture anyone who comes to the ranch that they need to be cautious, and it's the littlest kids who have the hardest time with that -- you just have to makes sure they understand the danger.

Best of luck to you.

Matt

Damn,
Neighbor just called forewarning.... She heard a sound on her tin shed and her dogs were barking. She climbed up and came face to face with a 5 foot rattler. It dropped onto the grass and headed into my foliage. Now I'm leaving and I've got a mad rattler somewhere in my yard and 2 dogs that want to go outside.
Damn-Damn

I hesitate to post this, but maybe someone will be interested.

We live in venomous snake, brown recluse spider country. A friend told us about missionaries they know who're using a mini-stun gun to treat snake bite successfully and directed us to Dr. Abrams website. We bought one and have used in several times on spider bites and wasp stings (it does relieve the pain and doesn't hurt much.)

I have no idea how it would work in a real emergency but it might provide some peace of mind until you could get to an ER.

free at last,

You know... I think I would REALLY check that out before I used it for something as serious as recluse or rattlesnake bite. It might be a wonderful new tool but without more than just their website hype- I'd worry about what electric shock might really do to venom enzymes. Who knows... stimulus could make certain venoms react faster like possibly the Mojave Green's venom that attacks the nervous system. Plus each individuals health history @ asthma, epilepsy (gran maul seizures), diabetes, etc. could make huge differences in morbidity or how someone recovers.
You might email your local hospital and see what their venom specialist thinks of the stun gun website for various types of venom. If they're for it, please post again and let us all know!

Interesting site -- I Googled Brown Recluse Treatment & Electric and found a pretty extensive article on BRS bites and treatment on Medscape, a very reputable site. They did mention that some studies had been done, but indicated the results were not that great... Too bad --

It's not for everyone, but having it handy makes me feel better. Its powered by a 9-volt battery.. I've had worse shocks chugging across the carpet.

What I want to know... who had to bright idea to shock themselves with a stungun on a painful spider bite in the first place??? Guess it takes all kinds :-)

He's probably a cousin of the guy who first ate snails......
you know, runs in the family!!!

Theyre baa~aack

Unseasonably warm weather has brought the rattlesnakes out early this year. Our workers have found one already - just a reminder that the little scaly devils are starting to wake up and get active.

Yall be careful out there and never put your hands where you cant see.

Man what timing lorraineal!
DH rides his bike every night for exercise. He just got home and came in to tell me he almost ran over one right out in front of our home!
Then I sign onto GardenWeb and what do I see......

:(

DH put a flat shovel in our main garage yesterday so I'd have if when needed. I kept one outside the back door at our last home. Killed many a copperhead there.

I ran across a 53" 9 rattle timber last September. He now resides in the lower level den. No, they are not protected in my area. Skinned and tanned it myself.

fyi, winged mammal, I haven't killed any wolves, deer, fox, coyotes, cougars or bear and I don't plan to - unless one is messin' with my dogs.

{{gwi:1463911}}

Allison,
That, my garden web friend, is impressive.

Amy

Thanks. That was right after I skinned, then I turned it over to tan. Got fussed at on the Dark Side for not eating the meat for dinner. I'm hoping it's not the start of a collection.

With so little rain in our area this year the mice, frogs and lizards will be coming in closer to our homes looking for food and moisture. Guess who'll be following them!!?!!

I'm not sure I'd want to use buckshot of any kind because of ricochet concirns, but there are rounds made for a .22 cal pistol called snake rounds. They have 150-175 very small pellets that do a pretty good job of dispatching snakes, scorpions and the like. Although I haven't had the opportunity to try it on a snake, I've known other that have and they supposedly work well. I have used them on scorpions with wonderfully interisting results.

Because the pellets are small it's very effective at close range, but is no threat at longer range (such as the unintended stray shot) or from ricochet. Just google "snake round ammunition" to find a place to get them. Obviously, check your local laws on their use and possession and discharge of a firearm of any kind.

BTW winged mammal, all animals protect their selves, most protect their family and territory (home). Often times one animal will intrude on another animals space and conflict ensues. I, and I suspect most of us don't go out of our way to kill anything we don't intend on eating, but like all animals, we may move into an area and stake our claim to our homes, protect it and our family. That's natures way. We are a part of nature.

Republican? Well, we all have to choose between two evils. I tossed my coin and it came up heads. I took that to mean that I was not supposed to choose the party represented by an ass. :) .........Sorry, I just couldn't resist. :)

So you choose not to support the party represented by an ass and have chose a party that has an ass leading our country!

Pot. Kettle.

IMO, neither Grumpster's nor SierraEast's posts were appropriate for this forum.

There are plenty of sites that specialize in mud slinging and name calling.

This is not such a site.

I haven't read all of the posts, so this may have already been said:

To keep snakes away, the only thing you can do is keep cover away. Near the home you could keep your landscaping simple, no debris, etc. Use bird feeders that drop minimal amounts of seed on the ground so that you're not attracting rodents.

I personally kill rattlesnakes. Well, the only one I had found so far on my 32 acres. Kids enjoy the property and I must protect them.

I have seen some beautiful kingsnakes on the property and have thought about buying a few more and releasing them on the property. Supposedly they sometimes eat poisonous snakes.

It wasn't mudslinging,but rather an opinion.Politics shouldn't play into these forums,so i appoligize.

I wish I was in a tavern reading this. Stun Guns, miniature guns, dogs, mountain lions, shovels, skinned snakes in basements, three snakes in one day, republicans and hollywood, this has it all!

There's no way I would live where you "republicans" live!

hahahahhehehhehohohohohhoho!

Dax

FWIW - last year's (2006) rattlesnake count topped out at 24. We were finding them through November and even one in December!

This year's tally to date is a paltry 9 - and none but one was even anywhere close to the house itself. Most of the scaly buggers were discovered by the crews that were pouring the 600' driveway and clearing the fire breaks around the property. The one closest was still 50' from the house itself.

I like to think that the catch-and-relocate-and/or-dispatch method we've been following has actually made a dent in the local population. 'Course it only takes one snake and one moment of inattention to have a crisis on our hands.

I make it a point to remind myself and everyone else to stay alert and watch where we put my hands and feet when we're outside.