Removing the grinder for a filter is done to quiet the machine. Also more reliable.

Most people find scraping dishes plus using enzyme base dishwasher detergent enough so that they don't have to clean out the filter very often.

Of the widely available most find Cascade Complete pacs to be the best.

Oh yes, I forgot about that enzyme stuff -- thanks deeageaux. That was new to me when reading about these machines months and months ago. What is the enzyme doing? That is, I thought enzymes speeded a chemical reaction. What's being speeded up here?

I've been using cascade powder - this hasn't got the enzyme in it I take it? Can I buy the enzyme separately as I have mega boxes of powder already?

TIA

I assume this is all more expensive than plain-old soap. grump.

And now that you mention it, I do remember reading about the grinder as being sacrificed to volume too. And I must say, that dishwasher is impressively quiet. I can't even tiptoe down stairs as quietly. Without the light on, you'd never know it was running; the fishtank is *much* noisier.

Most DW detergents have enzymes and have for years. Cascade powder should have it unless your boxes are more than a decade old. Your problem is most likely that you're not scraping your dishes. With enzymes you shouldn't rinse your dishes, the enzymes need dirt on the plates to work properly but you should scrape, even with a grinder in the DW.

Yep. Even the cheap stuff from Trader Joe's should work fine. Just scrape things that won't dissolve. You can wash a cake like the commercials, but if it's German chocolate, you'll be pulling coconut and pecans out of the filter.

(Eventually you get to have the enzyme argument with your parents/inlaws. Please don't rinse the dishes--especially because you stack sludgy dishes on the counter. Yes yours always come out clean but you wash them ahead of time so how would you know?)

I have a 5 year old Maytag that has the filter system. I did have to take it out and clean it once because I had the not so brilliant idea to clean a bunch of old candle molds in the dishwasher.

However, other than that, I have never given the filter a second thought and we don't have a stinky dishwasher. My understanding was that the filter was supposed to catch the wash crud and then it got backwashed out down the drain during the rinse cycle.

I hadn't heard about not pre-rinsing the dishes. We have a dog that does pre-rinsing for us.

So: are we doing something wrong?

@chas045: Bwahahahah! (;

The enzymes need something to work on so if you pre-rinse your dishes there's a possibility you'll get etching. It's really hard to teach old dogs new tricks :-)

No Virginia not all dishwasher detergents contain enzymes. Enzymes breakdown food. Wave (powder); Sunlight 3 in 1 Ultra Concentrated Power Pacs (pac); Palmolive Gel (liquid); Cascade Powerful Cleaning Plus Shineshield (liquid); and Electrasol 2 in 1 Power Gel (liquid) - among others do not contain enzymes.

I don't think you can buy the correct enzymes but I am not sure.

The problem with current powders is they do not contain phosphates and they have a tough time stabilizing all the chemicals. The "Pacs" seem to help.

BTW Not having a grinder also reduces energy use.

I loved my old Kitchenaid in my last house...I kinda wish I would have pulled it out and brought it with me ! hahaha It had the food grinder which I much prefer to having to clean out a filter and It was so quiet you could hardly tell it was on. And, ...the configuration was soooo great. I could fit way more in it is such great ways than I ever can in my current Electolux.

I cannot figure out how to load my new KA! And I realize I don't have a manual as it was a floor model; I keep meaning to sit down with it in a (nonexistent) quiet moment and learn the thing... couldn't happen if it ever could have if you follow.

I don't suppose some proud KA owner who has totally got the hang of loading this thing would care to post a picture of their handiwork, would you? I know it's pretty lame of me not to be able to figure it out, but you get stuck on one machine's configuration and it's hard to get a new plan nailed into the old block, IYKWIM.

Interesting, Marc, that at least one grinder was sufficiently quiet. Hard to know what to attribute technological gains to. The grinder appears not to be the only culprit for formerly noisy machines.

Aliris, you can probably print the manual off the KA website.

I don't have to touch the food trap on my Miele more than like once every few weeks. And then it is mainly hair (?). I use TJ's powder (filled only to the lowest line), and don't rinse. I shake off big pieces into the compost and everything else goes straight it. We run it at least everyday.

Ha! Okay I thought it was just me with the hair.

OK, scrape, no rinse. Box lists "enzymes".

Actually, I think it's possible the problem is related to the #3+ butter I burned through this weekend. I'm optimistic for the future.

I thought this thread was a joke at first. Seriously, this is not rocket science. We have had our KA about 18 months now and have never cleaned the trap or even seen food in it. We simply rinse the dish or whatever off in the sink while washing it down the garbage disposal and then put it in the dishwasher. We use those cascade tabs. We replaced a ten year old Whirlepool with a built in disposal that sounded like a tank when it was on. Even then we rinsed the dishes before putting them in. Who wants to let food sit there and rot for a day or two anyway? We can't even hear our KA, it is the top of the line 70 model.

Why the snarkiness? I posted mostly for the record if/when someone researches this dishwasher and its issues. Manually cleaning out a trap is definitely an issue, at least in my books. Had I understood I would need to hand-wash a very tricky, two piece bit of plastic with narrow slits and odd shapes -- took me at least 15 minutes to get it clean the first time the other day -- had I known this I would have thought twice about buying it; certainly I would have appreciated understanding this was part of the deal.

Further, I am asking whether it is indeed part of the deal, whether there's something I need to know to mitigate the icky mess. And it seems there is; first off the type of dishwasher powder evidently matters. And the way you deal with your dishes, washing or no, scraping or no. Plus it dawns on me the possibility that the particular kind of food we've been washing up after recently might be the culprit.

But the tacit question for me is whether there is something wrong with *my* dishwasher. There could be; it's a floor model, and was installed by someone I don't completely trust. Moreover I notice that soap often comes out the airgap even though I use next to none. At the least perhaps even that is too much. Or perhaps there's something wrong with its plumbing. I have noticed that sometimes the soap doesn't all get rinsed out of its cup. I never put in more than even half way to its fill line. And this morning I tasted soap on a banana cut with a knife I subsequently discovered tasted of soap (I'm not in the habit of licking my knives but I was prompted to in this case).

So ... the thread's not a joke and nevertheless, while not rocket science the thread is attempting to get to the bottom of a number of not-immediately-obvious issues.

It's even helpful to hear of your particular routine that meets with success. Me, I have no desire to employ those tablets - they're expensive and wasteful of resources with all their additional plastic and packaging. If it turns out I will have to be using this over-technologized form of *soap* I will be annoyed too, chalking it up to another hidden cost of the machine. Jury's out on that one but I appreciate hearing how you achieve success. So thank you.

Not wanting food to sit there rotting is another reason I'm a little grossed out by the trap. With a disposal, the food gets ground and gone. With the trap it is and evidently has been in our case sitting there at the bottom of the machine, trapped, rotting. And re-spreading its nastiness over the dishes when they get washed again. On the face of it, it doesn't seem like a good plan to me. I understand there's a trade-off with noise in the kitchen and perhaps for some this would be worth it. But the true experiment of noise-contribution would have to come from the same, same-aged, same-manufactured machine with and without grinder. It's not clear to me that a large part of the new-silence is all due to modern grinderless-ness. Jury's out on that one too.

Aliris, it does sound like you might be using too much soap. These new dw's use very little water so therefore need less soap, but for some reason have left the large soap filling cups there. I use only a tbsp max. You may have to cut back if you are tasting it.

Under normal operating conditions, the detergent enzymes should dissolve all the food debris except for bones and tougher fibrous material .. and of course any non-food debris (paper labels, toothpicks, etc.) that may get caught in the filter.

My dishwasher (one of those DishDrawer devices that people love to hate) does not have a grinder. I scrape the chunks and bits (or eat all of it, because who wants to be wasting food nowadays?) but I do not prerinse. I can count literally on one hand the number of times I've cleaned the filter in the 8 years of owning the machine. Dishwashers, whether or not they have a grinder, should not be used as if they're full-fledged food disposers. Demos of cleaning ability may involve running a double-layer cake through the machine, but that's an extreme situation not intended to occur during normal use. My thoughts are that if there's so much food residue getting caught in the filter that cleaning it is a chore, then there's either not enough scraping being done, or there's a problem with the operational factors such as detergent, insufficient water fill or temperature, etc.

Regarding detergent dosing, it can vary widely based on local conditions and machine usage habits. The non-phosphate detergents on the market now may not handle hard water conditions very well so in some extreme cases a larger dose may be needed than is expected. My machine takes 0.8 gals per fill, I use 1 tsp in the prewash cup (which holds 2 tsp max) and 3 to 4 tsp for the main wash (which hold 6 tsp max).

I have dish drawers too, and I don't scrape very well, so I do get bits and pieces in there and clean the filters a few times a month. They are usually just a knock into the sink job, but every once in a while it gets gunky....three pounds of butter? Young lady! Naughty!!

(Aliris, I guess if YOU had gotten a "top of the line KA" instead of what you got, you wouldn't have to be a rocket scientist I mean seriously, that was kinda rude, wasn't it? Jeepers!:O/ )

Marcy - that's funny! Sounds like you're suggesting they're recycling old parts in the form of obsolete soap cups that imply a need for more soap than is necessary. Feels pretty funny for me to be caught out in using too much soap. I'm the original miser and have long used as little of the stuff as I thought humanly possible. If it turns out even that is too much, well, I'm tickled pink. I'll try -- tee hee hee -- cutting down even more. Oh joy! It's the little things in life.... :)

Oh, fori ... I was actually adding it up after I wrote that and - hang head in shame - it could well have been even more than 3 lbs! Big birthday party here for sleeping-over girls; much cake needed to be made and cut down into appropriate shapes and pieces; the scraps pieced back together (cf miser-explanation above and glued in place with waaay too much frosting. I do think much of that nasty greasy sticky trappy gunk was residue from this unique event. I am hoping so.... but also, not really knowing whether to scrape or wash or no, sometimes big chunks of stuff did go in there; it was fine in the old one. So between that and the grease which glued it in place, it was all not very pretty, but possibly not typical. As this was really the first time I noticed the problem and it encompassed quite a bit of time, it's hard to know what was trapped for how long without doing more forensics than I have stomach or interest for! But I have every hope this learning curve will be steep.

However honestly, at the moment I'd take the noisier grinder in preference to the trapped gunk. We'll see if we can split the difference. It may be that reasonable minds could disagree on this or it could be that I'll figure out how to improve this system sufficiently to see the noise-benefit gain relative ground.

Marcy - that's funny! Sounds like you're suggesting they're recycling old parts in the form of obsolete soap cups that imply a need for more soap than is necessary.

Nah, i think there's a collusion with the soap manufacturers. Heck, even the folks that use the Miele tabs in Miele machines usually break them in half. There's a whole thread here on that!

Funny, my son was born when we did our first kitchen. Miele repair guy had to come fix something the contractor didn't do or do right. While bouncing the crying baby talking to the installer, he tells me that the reason baby is probably crying is because i'm using too much soap on the bottles and I should use only half the amount. Everyone has advice for mothers of infants! What he didn't know was that the baby had only been breastfed and hadn't ever seen a bottle :) Maybe I had too much soap to eat!

Dadoes, for some reason your posting didn't come to my email... I think I'll see if things clear up with changed behavior and if not, I'll maybe get some use out of that extended warranty I bought on the floor model. I think it is quite possible there's some "operational problem" as noted. OTOH maybe I'm just paying for sins of the butter.

Marcy - I wonder if the soap broke up the fat molecules in your milk?

Ew ick indeed.

BTW, I estimate I've been using 1.5 tsp detergent in the washing part only. I really have to find that manual to download! I dropped to 1 tsp. we'll see. I'm actually leaning toward the problem-explanation.

OK, there is definitely something wrong.

I was thinking maybe if I had a large plastic cutting board on the left side of the tub close to where the detergent cup was it might eclipse the spray from reaching the soap causing it not to be dissolved.

But just now I opened the machine and discovered suds on the bottom of the tub and only half of that 1 tsp of detergent gone from the cup. There was a plastic cutting board close but not really close to the detergent cup. However I've removed it altogether and am running the machine again. Maybe I have to nix them altogether. Or maybe something else is wrong...

...and later soap is gone but (a) still soap taste on dishes; (b) dishes not coming out clean-enough (c) soap gone from cup.

I, ahem - (i) read the manual (different suggestion for loading dishes, and a doo-hickey bag is in the wrong place) (ii) vow not to wash cutting boards for now, (iii) cleaned out the trap again (gunky again - grease coating the small mesh) and, well, what now? Some dishes have baked-on crud I scrubbed off. Manual suggested running hot water nearby machine before running -- good idea. I am guessing it is me and not the machine: could the "enzymes" be old and inactive? Doubt that... but, I suppose perhaps they settle out of the powder and aren't evenly distributed; an old box could dispense different stuff at each pour?

Hmmmm.... I am glad I bought that extended warranty (they nixed several hundred dollars from the cost of the floor price so I could buy their too-expensive policy at Sears but when I investigated buying a cheaper one, they justified their high cost with the added benefit of a "maintenance" checkup which I think I am about to call out!)

From what you've written, sounds like a "big three" problem to me.

1) incomplete fill, or....

2) water not heating, or....

3) obstructed drain path.

From your description, I'd bet on incomplete fill. The cup not emptying is tell-tale.

Each/all of these are quick/easy checks.

Thank you asolo! Though the cup isn't always not-emptying; I'm not still positive it isn't because something large hasn't obstructed water getting to it. Also, our water is slow to heat b/c of new "instant" water heater that isn't. Plus, when it arrives it's not very hot either - I think the city has set it too low or maybe there's something I'm missing with that too. I should post over on plumbing about that or study up on the manuals there. I can't get it above 125-degrees which isn't terribly hot. I was presuming the fix was mandated, but I'm sure it can be overridden if it even is.

So #2 isn't out either. And given the plumber, I wouldn't even rule out #3 either. But I really appreciate the directions for investigation!

Your water heater isn't the nut. Even with 125F water entering the machine from the first drop, the mass of dishes inside will reduce the temperature dramatically -- like down to barely warm -- as soon as it starts spraying around. The DW itself is designed to heat it back up.

From your description, I'd bet on too low fill-level and/or drain obstruction. Both are common, easy to check, and usually cheap to fix.

Please come back and say what found.

1 TEASPOON of detergent also is not enough. That's not a strong-enough concentration of cleaning chemicals in the wash water for the enzymes and such to act properly on the food soil. As I noted above, I use 3 to 4 teaspoons (for the main wash cup) in my DishDrawer (which takes 0.8 gals of water per fill), which is 3 to 4 times more detergent concentration than you're using.

More evidence of your machine having a fill level or water supply problem is detergent aftertaste (insufficient rinsing). However, rinse aid can also be a source of soapy taste if the dosage is set too high (although setting rinse aid dosage down too low in hard water conditions can result in poor drying performance).

Dadoes....

"1 TEASPOON of detergent also is not enough."

With respect, it is at my place. Soft water; 3/4 tsp pre-wash; 1 tsp main wash. A little up or down depending on size and dirtiness of my load. Using Cascade Complete powder. Excellent results every time. Your 3-4 tsp would be vast over-dose for me.

Depends on water quality. More/less/whatever. Every user has to find out what works. In any event, I don't think detergent dosage is OP's problem. I suspect issues with the machine itself. Continue to suspect fill/drain issues.

aliris19....

FWIW.....my machine is a Whirlpool....probably made in the same factory as your KA....certainly with many of the same components. In particular, I suspect my dispensing cup and my filter are either identical or similar to yours. At the end of the cycle, the machine and everything in it are absolutely spotless...no leftovers or residue of any kind. I remove/inspect/clean the filter whenever the mood strikes me which, on average, is maybe every few weeks. From what I've seen in there, I suspect I could leave it for months. That's how yours should be if the machine was working right.

Couple of thoughts:

- on filters. I think most people assume these filters in dishwasher to be like lint filters in dryers. Like they trap every piece of food and you'll have to scrape them off after washing. Indeed, and as stated by chas045, the filter is backwashed during the drain cycle. The water flows one way during recirculation and another way during draining (when the filter is cleaned). Our Bosch actually quickly alternates draining and circulation during the drain cycle to clean the filter even better. Even on the hottest cycle, which is 167F on or dishwasher, there will be some greasy film left on the plastic parts of the filter. I have found this to be true for all dishwashers I used. However, and this is what's important to me, dishes and plastic items, are always squeaky clean. You don't really need to scrub the filter clean - and quick rinse under hot water is all that's needed. Unless, that is, you are like me and clean the door seal with a Q-tip... ;-)

Here's a comparison of a Bosch versus a Miele filter. My Bosch Maintenance* and Miele Filter Cleaning * Note that the Bosch video is NOT a regular cleaning routine - it's really a deep-cleaning, once a year type of thing.

- on grinders. I can see the benefit of a grinder in a dishwasher but today, they are becomming more and more useless. Take GE for example: they call their grinder units Piranha Hard Food Disposer - yet, it also boasts Self-Cleaning 5-Stage Filtration with ExtraFine Filter. Huh? Why put in a grinder if there are five filters in there. Heck, even our Bosch only has four. Same with other manufacturers: grinders AND filters. Personally, I rather clean a filter than have it hidden somewhere deep down underneath the machine slowly clogging up with stuff. Have read several times of dishwashers with grinders that show poor performance because the thing is clogged up and no one knows because the filters are hidden. Just my two cents.

- on detergents. I think I'll go to detergent hell for posting this but I use similar amounts of deteregnt like dadoes. 20 grams for the main wash and ten grams for the pre-wash. I don't know how many tablespoons that is as they vary in size. I'd guess ten grams equal one tablespoon. And our dishwasher has a softener. Dishes come out clean, no etching, no sudsing. On important thing not to forget: yes, new dishwasher use less water BUT the soil level of the load is still the same. Therefore, a high concentration of soil (in less water) also requires a higher concentration of detergent (not just a little pinch). Especially, since some modern US dishwashers wash in very cool water. I just read the manual of the newest KitchenAid and it says the High Temp option raises the wash temp from 105F to 120F - even on the Heavy Duty cycle. Wow, that is really low! Our Bosch heats to 120F on the Energy Saver cycle.

Finally, here's a sample load of what I consider a well-loaded dishwasher. This is our Bosch.

Alex

asolo - thanks a ton. This is all very, very helpful. I've taken to inspecting the filter every time; I want to get to the bottom of this.

Being scrupulous about no (plastic) cutting boards on the left side of the machine results in completely emptied soap cup.

Even with 1 tsp in main cup and this time, for the first time, dadoes - I'm just remembering HS (maybe it was college) biology lab where we learned that soap chemically disintegrates oil such that a little is the same as a lot. OTOH your water will absolutely matter to the efficacy of the soap I'm sure. That is, I bet there's a curve in efficiency of disintegrating grease that is very steep and then plateaus, but how far "in" it starts its ascent depends on the hardness of your water. So I'm guessing there's some threshold of amount beyond which it doesn't matter too much how much more you use, but if you don't get *enough* for your particular water hardness, you'll have trouble. Just guessing though....

So ... on to fill/drain issues; first, back to temp - thanks for the explanation about it. Even heating the water in the sink first results in cold water in the beginning of the cycle -- just as you predict. By its end, though, it's broiling hot - way hotter than I can get in the tap so for-sure it's doing its own heating, also as you say.

Trap: I removed it after washing it thoroughly prior to this last run. *Inside* it is small particulate gunk too. That's consistent with what Alex says about the filters being part of a 2-way system.

I don't use the rinse-stuff. Luddite, I. Seems like extra product to buy to me; don't see the point. If there are spots (and there rarely are), that glass isn't really empty long enough for me to care.

So I'm going to work on more behavioral fixes before calling in the repairers to check on fill or draining issues -- unless there's some easy way for me to check this?

Thanks, all. I'm finding all this information really interesting. I haven't looked at the videos yet; it'll be a treat for later on! Geesh - how compulsive is this? I remember wondering if and when I would know whether I'd been inducted into the realm of the TKO. I think looking forward to watching videos of dishwashers wash is kinda attainment, no?

OK, then. Since you're inspired, here's what to do. (Disclaimer: Not mine...copied/pasted from another forum...but pretty much exactly what you should do.)

From your description, I would check your drain path first. If your machine has a filter, start there. If it isn't clean, clean it. Disconnect the hose from it's exit-point underneath the sink and examine the hose and connection right there -- a common place for crud to accumulate. Get a flashlight and look into the drain-point hole because frequently stuff will adhere to the walls and need to be scraped out. I've seen openings to disposals 2/3rds obstructed with stuff like that. Check the entire length of drain hose for kinks. Put the hose-end in a bucket (large enough to hold a complete DW fill volume) and set your EMPTY machine for "rinse/drain" or whatever that shortest of fill/drain cycles is on your machine. When it drains, water should really blast out of there. (hold or secure the hose end so it doesn't jet out and spray all over.) Examine the quantity of water that came out and contents of the bucket when drain complete looking for crud that shouldn't be there. May be all it takes to get back on track. Don't know, of course, but that's where I'd start and it doesn't take long. You'll learn instantly whether or not you've gotten a complete fill and whether or not your drain path is or was obstructed.

Regarding the residual "soap" taste, there (theoretically) shouldn't be any such taste, regardless of how much detergent is used, unless the machine is not rinsing properly. Can you confirm how many rinses there are after the main wash? What's the model number of your machine? I don't see that you mentioned it anywhere above. If the water level is lacking, the pump won't get enough water to generate proper spray pressure and volume, and rinsing is largely a dilution process.

Rinse aid is not only for spot prevention. It enhances moisture evaporation in the drying process. Some dishwashers nowadays don't have drying heaters and those that do operate at lower wattage/temperature than in the past. However, if you're happy with your machine's drying performance sans rinse aid, then good for you!

Regards to the detergent dosing ... keep in mind that it's not only a matter of dissolving grease. There needs to be sufficient concentration of the enzyme agents in the wash water to effectively act on all the soil and food residue. If you're getting acceptable results with 1 teaspoon then that's great ... oh, but maybe you're aren't getting such good results? :-)

I'm not exactly clear on your situation with 3+ lbs of butter, cake, frosting, etc. ... but could it possibly be that if you ran a load with a bunch of greasy baking utensils, cake and frosting residue, 1 or 1.5 tsp of detergent really wasn't enough to deal with that load and you've now got some gunk in the machine parts (pump, spray arms, etc.) that is not washing away.

Suggestion: run a dose of dishwasher cleaner through the machine. There are several choices on the market, and also LemiShine.

Aliris, when you do that drain path test that asolo describes, note that to get your drain hose loose you will probably unscrew your air gap from the TOP and then drop the whole thing down the hole. For me undoing it from the bottom was just impossible. I think most air gaps are placed behind the sink and there's no way to access it otherwise. Just remember how it looks before you take it apart, so you can reassemble it afterwards.

My KA has markings on the detergent cup for 'hard water' and 'soft water'. I do have to use the Heavy Duty cycle with the Hi-Temp Rinse or Sani Cycle (especially if there's a frosting bowl in there).

Thanks asolo and dadoes.

I haven't really provided much info; I guess this thread morphed. It's a brand new, but floor model from Sears. They told me there had been no use on the thing, and nothing looked worn at all. The door was a little dinged which I fixed easily by fiddling with a cable or some-such, I don't even remember now. It was no big deal. The handle had rubbed and scuffed the front of it and it was this cosmetic problem that caused it to be passed over I believe. So they sold it to me at 70% off retail, in part so I could - which I did - buy an extended warranty. It's a KUDE70FVSS0.

So asolo - I can check for pipe obstruction like this as you suggest, but the thing really is brand new, in a brand new kitchen - seems unlikely, isn't it, to have sclerotic pipes? I've cleaned both filters already.

I think, since I have paid someone for this service, before going to all that disconnection-part, I'll probably call in my warranty first. I *really* appreciate the info for once my warranty runs out, but for now I'll stick to fiddling with variables that won't threaten my new cabinets.

Also, I just don't even know how to set the machine for rinse/drain. I guess there's a rinse only button that the manual says runs for 15 minutes. How do I know that's a complete fill? Whatever ... I could figure it out, I suppose, if pushed to but I don't think I've quite worked up my courage to unscrew hoses that carry water. I did re-solder my washing machine, but this seems more daunting.

Dadoes - I've never had a machine that didn't leave my dishes soaking afterwards. This one at least bakes things so hot that if I open the door soon after its completion the stuff evaporates fairly rapidly. I've always turned off the heater. And now that I've discovered microfiber towels I actually even know how I can wipe the things dry should I so desire - I rarely do anyway; air-dry is rapid-enough for me, especially from broiled.

I think you just may be right that a coincidence of many user-errors or at least factors has left me sort of behind-the-curve in terms of good cleaning, but is not necessarily the machine's fault. Perhaps a build up of that icky grease; probably I didn't scrape dishes from this time well-enough and there's build up still sloshing around of too much grease. ick.

OTOH, what to make of the soap residue? Its existence is the reason I've cut down ever more on the soap, not that I ever used a ton of it.

I've never heard of dishwasher cleaner - sounds like an oxymoron, but perhaps it would be indicated if it's effective. How would it differ from, say dishsoap? Or washing machine detergent?? The reviews on Amazon suggest it is really harsh. I'll hold it in mind for just before I call out the repairman. But again, this machine is brand new ... though I guess the plan would be to flush the butter out.

OK, I'll try it. Thanks!

OK, tress -- now you've totally terrified me. No way am I unhooking all that stuff. I only just learned what an airgap was the other day; no way am I going to try to unhook that thing myself. I'm sure I can do it, only that's what I've purchased a warranty for: not to have to try, not just yet at least! This is just asking for more trouble than I need to ask for before calling in the help I've already purchased. Some day, when the warranty has run out, then I'll screw up my courage. But I'm just not prepared to get this proactive yet. I don't have enough confidence in my ability to forestall a flood.

Note that an airgap is part of your household plumbing, not the dishwasher itself, so technically would not be covered by a warranty on the machine ... although your servicer may be willing to deal with it depending on how accommodating they may be.

When you say above that "soap" comes out of the airgap ... does that means sudsing? Dishwasher detergent should not produce any suds. Overdosing of rinse aid can cause foaming inside the machine, but you've clearly indicated that you don't use rinse aid.

Rinse/Hold (or Rinse Only) [do not use detergent on this cycle] is a full-fill (no internal water heating), sprays the dishes for a few mins, then drains and shuts off, leaving them wet.

Dishwasher cleaner is typically a concentrated citric acid liquid or powder, and perhaps some other cleaning ingredients. The liquid products are in a bottle sealed with wax. The bottle is placed upside in the rack and the machine run on the normal cycle (or perhaps hottest cycle, check and follow the product instructions). The seal melts to release the cleaner during the main wash period when the water has gotten hot enough. An alternative is run the machine and add 2 cups of white vinegar during the main wash period. If you add it immediately at the start, it'll be drained away after the prewash or prerinse or whatever, with nothing to do any good during the longer/hotter main wash. Or, use a powdered product such as LemiShine, filling both detergent cups FULL.

"I can check for pipe obstruction like this as you suggest, but the thing really is brand new, in a brand new kitchen - seems unlikely, isn't it, to have sclerotic pipes?"

Actually, happens all the time. Technically not fault of the machine itself but careless installers can do amazing things.

Part of reason for suggestion was that it's quick and easy in any event. In a few minutes you will have confirmed or eliminated from consideration two critical issues.

You don't have to disconnect the air-gap.

Every reason for optimism whether you do this stuff yourself or hire it done.

Look at it this way.....dishwashers are pretty simple machines....they all do the same thing the same way. They spray hot water around inside of a box. If 1) the machine fills properly 2) it heats it's water to 120F or above 3) is allowed free unobstructed drain path and 4) is otherwise cycling properly then you will NOT have any of the issues you've described.

Once assured those things are taken care of, running a single max-heat cycle with no dishes in there with proper fill, max heat (probably around 150F), clear drain.... I predict your machine will be clean and clear of any residue in a single cycle.

It's a machine. All it knows how to do is run. If it's allowed to do what it's designed to do, all of your issues will go away. The only reason it isn't is because it's being prevented by some undiscovered shortcoming. I suggest that whatever that shortcoming is is very likely pretty simple to discover and remedy.

If you're not comfortable trouble-shooting yourself (that's OK, by the way. Many people aren't.) An experienced person can likely handle it in a single visit. From what you've written to date, I cannot believe other than what you're dealing with is in the "simple" category. Could be mistaken, but what you've described is very familiar-sounding.

Ok, blessed people -- I'm not particularly religious, but it's willingness to be helpful and involved like that on you-all's part that's enough to bring out gratitude bordering on the ecclesiastical from me. (obviously I don't really know what I'm talking about as I can't even figure out how to use that word properly).

Dadoes -- I was just wondering whether it would be posting too much to add another observation. It explains my wrong one earlier about soap and the airgap. When I noticed soap coming from the airgap earlier, it was really before I'd ever even added any to the dishwasher, essentially, so it was puzzling but I thought I had gotten it wrong. I hadn't: the soap that's oozing out is from dishsoap in the main cleanup sink. Its use happens to coincide, sometimes, with my running of the DW, so I was mistaking the dishsoap bubbles for the dishwasher soap ones. Which I knew would have looked different, again, I was puzzled, just didn't follow through with the warning bell in my head.

OK, it's a machine, it's a simple machine. I'm still not convinced this isn't operator error. I think I will try to run a load of vinegar through it; not sure how to tell when it's in its wash cycle but maybe the manual will have clues. Unfortunately this is highly automated, meaning you've no idea what's actually going on or when. grump.

That lemishine sounds scary. Maybe it's oxalic acid or something powerful. I'll try the milder vinegar first.

Back to the airgap: that suds are coming out of the cleanup sink drain and through the airgap: does that suggest a blockage problem in the hose drainage-ing?

I also actually shook around my old box of detergent today before running the machine. I notice those little blue dots, which I'm guessing are labelled "enzymes", though who knows - maybe just random nothings or scent or who-knows-what? But anyway, those things are very sparsely distributed in the dose I pour out; I think they're hiding at the bottom of the box. I shook but there's still much compacted down below. If energetic I may get out a bowl and re-shake. But probably not until after I try de-greasing with the vinegar.

Thanks for your thoughts on the palmolive-through-the-airgap thing.

I couldn't find anything on chemical makeup of Lemishine. If it is citric acid, I wouldn't worry at all about it. I doubt it is oxalix acid, but if it were I would only suggest that you wash your hands and don't get it in your eyes. Many chemicals are not dangerous at all. You should worry far more about oven cleaner. Actually, most about oven cleaner. It is probably the most dangerous product in your house and they put it in a spray can!

It seems like you would have already noticed, but with dish soap comming out the sink drain? yes?, perhaps the main drain is partially clogged?

Otherwise, the consensous is 'your washer she be broke'. Call the repair people, enjoy the long wait, mention some of the thoughts on this thread. Good luck.

Hi everyone. I'm reporting back.

Where to start? Backward forward? Forward back?

How about punchline first: there was a screw in the motor. No, really. There's a 1/2" long metal screw with a larger washer attached, thoroughly coated with white powder and rusty-like stuff. I should take a picture...

And how it came to pass that I discovered this was: at long last the thing started making a lot of noise during the wash cycle. And I know from formerly that it's almost impossible to even know the thing is running, that's how quiet it is, under normal circumstances: something was wrong.

So while I'd been fiddling and jiggling when at last this started happening I picked up the phone to Sears. It was even making enough noise for the phone tech to hear. He sent someone out the next day. Also, a "no, really" comment. I know there are a lot of bad experiences reported here with Sears repair calls, but this one sure went smoothly.

So about 24 hours after I made the call, my only complaint is that the guy failed to phone me before coming over, as per protocol. However, dh had been tasked with working at home, waiting for him, so all was well. DH phoned me to ask whether I had questions, which was lucky because I would have been less happy if the guy had just left.

Reason being, I had a lot of questions that weren't answered by the manual, that I will relate here for others curious about the KUDE.

As per above I've obviously got some serious confusion going regarding the function of this thing. Turns out, for example, that it's important to know that the water comes from the *back* of the machine, those blue thingies there:

That means from a practical point of view, that if you're especially wanting something icky to get really clean, a pan with fish goo baked on the side for example, you need to position the pans not toward the center, as formerly, but all toward the back where the water comes from. And you need to select the proscrub option which I think cuts off the overhead water maybe? And it's with the option selected the water flies in more strongly from the blue jets? I realize now I'm not 100% sure of this... And I'm not sure where to figure it out either as I didn't see this info in the online manual.

Also of interest is that the water sensor is activated for the "normal" wash only but goes by default to the longest setting for "heavy duty" and the shortest setting for "light china" - all else is the same about the cycles, you're just selecting the length of time. Why they have to use confusing euphemsisms I'll never know; they should just stick on a "chicken nuggets" button.

I think the proscrub also actively boosts the water temperature, as well as switching water from the arm to the blue thingies.

From the manual I did learn to turn on the hot water prior to starting the machine; so little water is used that if you just let it flow out at normal rate, you're about done with the wash cycle by the time the luke warm water arrives. In sum, you're evidently supposed to buy an expensive machine that uses less than a gallon of water per wash and proceed to flush 5 gallons down the drain prior to starting it to get the temperature right. Great. I am trying to be sure to have some hand washing to do before starting the machine...

And prior to giving up and calling in the professionals what did I do to try to improve cleaning? Well, applied that above heat-fix. Added vinegar mid-cycle and also then to the jet dry. Both of these attempted fixes did little (no surprise in hindsight) and the tech was quite dismissive of the potential there for any additional cleaning. I also did a lot of close filter inspection and washing to no avail. Never did unhook the water though. As it turns out, I'm guessing/hoping the discovered screw will now change everything. If not I'll just call them back. My $180 at work.... (price of a 3-year contract, although they knocked that from the price of the machine so I could buy it so in some sense it's free, sort of).

Haven't yet looked into why the airgap regurgitates hand soap bubbles if you so much as look at the soap dispenser. Something must be wrong there too. I forgot to mention that to the tech.

OK, so y'all asked .... I know this is TMI (Too Much Information for those of you without preteens), but I'm just trying to do as instructed.

Thanks, all.

Activating the ProScrub option does spray wash & rinse water from the blue jets at the back to deal with a heavy-crusted baking dish or the like loaded facing the jets ... but there also is spray from the arms under the racks to take care of items loaded in "normal" positions.

With ProScrub not activated, spray comes only from the arms.

The various cycles should have different target temperatures and more or fewer fills/drains per the number of wash/rinse periods involved.

@aliris19.....Looks like some sort of low-torque panel-screw. Did your hired pro have an opinion about where it may have come from?

I am still concerned about your drain path....but that's easy diagnosis if you want to get into it....which you should.

The pro didn't think it came from the DW - do you think otherwise? It seems really old and the DW isn't....

asolo - I actually think I agree about the drain path. But life is long. I've only run it once or twice since his being here and nothing was egregiously wrong - it sure is quieter! ;) But there's time yet to do some more careful observations. I may even take a deep breath and tackle the diagnosis, but not for a while (month) - long story why not. But I am definitely holding on to your opinion front and center and understanding this may not be the end of it all yet.

Thanks a million.

I once put a cutting board in the rack on the left side and it did block the detergent door from opening, so it is possible. We also experimented with detergent since we were using Cascade powder before. We discovered that the best to use was the Cascade all in one Action Pack tabs. The enzymes are supposed to eat up the food in the trap after a day or two. But it sounds like you might have other issues at play here.

And I wasn't trying to be a smart a## before. Your subsequent postings went into much more detail about you problems. At first it just seemed that you were upset that you had a food trap in the dishwasher and couldn't understand why it was there. My response was that if it works as intended it is a non issue. I have had my machine, which looks similar to yours on the inside, for over 18 months. We pre-rinse and have yet to find any food in the trap, for what it's worth.

Thanks, tarheel - no worries. I got my little rant in, for which I should be grateful to you. Helped me to sort out my questions. As they say in the reference librarian biz - no one ever asks their real question up-front.

So ... this enzyme dirty-dish business still has me confused about two issues: (1) if you pre-rinse your dishes and use enzyme soap, won't it be eating away your dishes? (2) how will the enzymes "eat up the food in the trap after a day or two"? Does some residue remain that continues to eat up the food?

Speaking of which ... (3) what's it mean to be an "enzyme" in this context anyway? My understanding of what an enzyme is, is that it's a protein that binds to some foreign material that in so doing facilitates the foreign material to be metabolized more quickly. It's part of a living system. What's it mean in this context? That is, how could an enzyme work on food residue in "1 or 2 days"? The enzyme's point is to speed up a chemical reaction. But the "reaction" that happens in a DW is mechanical - food gets ground up and washed down the drain, right? It might eventually get swept to a public works facility that puts microbes in the water to chew up your food waste - I could see an enzyme being helpful there. But in this context I'm just confused....

Anyway, thanks for coming back tarheel.

Prerinsing should NOT be done. Scraping off the chunks and bits, yes. Full rinsing under running water, NO.

It's unlikely enough enzymes are left after [the rinse phases of] a cycle is complete to have a notable effect on residue remaining in the filter. However, assuming the next load (or two) doesn't have an excess amount of chunks/bits, the enzymes in the next doses of detergent will work on the filter residue.

Enzymes in the detergent are a catalyst to assist in dissolving organic [food] material. Kinda like enzymes in laundry detergent work on food stains, blood, etc.

Well ... I'm with the person who thought it was sort of voodoo to have to feed your DW to stave it off from eating your dishes.

But I do think I'm starting to get it.

FWIW, I rinse my dishes....because a quick-rinse is easy/faster than scraping. Not a "full rinse" as dadoes described. They're still plenty dirty when they go in the DW but the big chunks and grease-clumps are gone.

I get consistently excellent DW results and no etching.

Enzymes will not affect your dishes. Only the food particles on the dishes. Dishwasher detergent is not the same as dish soap. It is a lot harsher without the sudsing agents.

I think Lemishine is citric acid.

A DW is mechanical, using the force of spray to remove food soils from dishes. But it also needs hot water as well as detergent, just like hand washing. The enzymes help with loosening and breaking apart food particles.

Didn't see it mentioned, but do you have a disposal on the sink? And is the DW drain attached to it (via the airgap)?

No disposal. So presumably the airgap just goes to the ... well, I can't tell. It's a little hidden so I can't see.

OK, you said above that detergent (and hot water) is needed, "just like hand washing", but you also say "detergent is not the same as dish soap". I can see that, say, Cascade is heavier-duty than, say, palmolive. But really, how so? Is there a definitional difference? I know only that soap will solubilize fat cells that 'stick' to one another (I think they grab the hydrogen bonds apart). How is detergent different? And why would you need it? My online dictionary says detergent "differs from soap in not forming a scum with the salts in hard water."... and then to pursue my own question, wikipedia notes that a detergent is a surfactant, which "alters the water properties at the water/air-or-oil interface". So detergent is basically soap that will work when water is hard; a mega-soap. And possibly not even needed for those of us without hard water.

Seems there are a gazillion variables in the additives available and best is to experiment with your machine, your water, your consumer products.

Who knew?