Well, it's NOT necessary.... so long as he doesn't mind coming in every 2 weeks or so for the life of the installation and regrouting all the corners. As for Mapei grouts, yes, it should be readily available in your grout color wherever he got your grout. If not, let me know.

OK, I'll probably be losing my Dip Top invite from Bill over this, but I'm going to give a different opinion. I don't necessarily disagree with what Bill is saying...because he's technically correct...but I'm not thrilled with all the caulking I just completed.

This particular bath has white 6x6 tiles with Mapei's white grout (I forget which white, but it's a very white, white). I followed up the grouting with Mapeis' white (double 0 I believe) caulk. The grout and caulk are distinctly different...the caulk has a yellow color to it. Now maybe it's because there is sooo much white, but it doesn't look great. Interestingly, I ran out of the Mapei when doing the joint around the tub and picked up a generic white "kitchen and bath" caulk at Home Cheapo. That's a much better match than the Mapei that's suppose to be color matched.

I know there's been some heated discussion about matching caulk and grout in the past, but it seems like picking the lesser of 2 evils. Would you rather look at microscopic cracks in thin grout lines in the corners of your shower, or would you rather see non-matching grout? I don't think there is an across the board answer. For me, I spent allot of time picking dried caulk off my hands and cursing for not just grouting the whole dam thing!

spanky, when you say "just completed", how long do you mean? I ask because when my bathroom sinks were caulked, it took a full week for the caulk to dry to its correct color (it was white when applied, clear now). I hope your's just has to "cure". (For the record, I didn't follow Bill's advice, let my otherwise excellent tiler grout the edge between my kitchen granite counter and tiled backsplash. One section of the backsplash (curiously, though, not the other section) cracked within weeks).

Thanks you guys - that's a good starting point but I think you've raised more questions in my mind.

First off, I'm still confused about the definition of a corner - am I supposed to caulk (or not caulk) the perimeter, for example, where the floor tile meets the wall tile? Or just the actual corner area where 2 walls and a floor meet?

...so long as he doesn't mind coming in every 2 weeks or so for the life of the installation and regrouting all the corners...

What is it about corners that causes so many problems? Does this apply just to floor/wall corners or tub/wall angles as well?

thanks for your input - I'm a real beginner here...

Spanky-- I don't know what happened-- if you got a bad tube of caulking or what, but I've never had a problem, even with the white.

am I supposed to caulk (or not caulk) the perimeter, for example, where the floor tile meets the wall tile?

That all depends. If you're tiling up to your baseboards, and the joint will be seen, then yes, it needs to be caulked. If the baseboards will be installed over the TOP of the tile, then anywhere the joint will be hidden, it should remain open-- no caulk, no grout, no nothing.

What is it about corners that causes so many problems? Does this apply just to floor/wall corners or tub/wall angles as well?

It's one surface moving against another that causes the problems. It applies to any place where one surface meets another.

Just make sure you are really clear what you want.

I have just had my 5th convo with my tiler about no grout only caulk - every time he says sure I can do it that way. I just walked in on him grouting the inside corners again. When I said (for at least the 5th time) to please don't grout, I want it caulked, he says " I know, there will just be some grout in there, then I will caulk over it". I could just cry. He just doesn't seem to get it.

"If the baseboards will be installed over the TOP of the tile, then anywhere the joint will be hidden, it should remain open-- no caulk, no grout, no nothing."

Why "should"? Is there some functional reason? Or aesthetics?

I should add that as a builder I've done both.

In one 50' by 12' entry lobby--white tiles with black diamonds and white walls and baseboard--until we caulked it white, it looked unfinished. The only negative I can think of is maintenance; it' best cleaned with a damp sponge.

Our tile guy also said he doesn't caulk the vertical corners of the shower. Now we have large cracks in the grout running up the corners of our shower. I asked our GC about caulking those corners and he said that he never does. He said they will crack initially after putting in a new bathroom but over time after everything has had time to settle there shouldn't be as many cracks ocurring after he regrouts where the initial cracks ocurred. I find this hard to believe after everything I've read on this forum, but I don't know why he would lie to us??

Pathetic

Why "should"? Is there some functional reason? Or aesthetics?

If the joints will be hidden by baseboard, they should stay open to give maximum protection against seasonal expansion and contraction of the perimeter structure (the walls). If the joint IS open to view, then it should be caulked with a siliconized latex caulk made to match the grout.

doingygirl-- he's not lying to you. He just doesn't know better. Unfortunatley, not all contractors are like worthy here. They think they know it all, and have nothing left to learn. Just ask them-- they'll tell you!!

My hitherto great tile guy completely lost my respect when he reached this step, and especially with how he "handled" my pointing out the problem. He used *epoxy grout* in the changes of plane, and when I asked him to take out a thin line (which we are now having to do with a heat gun) and put in caulk, he agreed and then left such a *huge* line of caulk I just knew what I was going to find when I scraped some out...he'd just caulked over the groutline, which was still in place, except where it had *cracked* up and out the corners. Told me he'd "caulked" the plane changes. Now *that* is a Liar.

Ok - let's see if I've got this straight. My bathrooms will have no baseboards, just tile on the floor and then tile on the walls up to about the chair rail line. In the master bath I will have hardwood on the floor with tile up the walls, also to just above chair rail. In the first case I should caulk the floor perimeter as well as the floor-to-chair rail corners, and the shower perimeter and corners up to the top. In the second case I can just do the floor to chair rail corners as the tile will be "sitting" just above the hardwood with no filler in between. Did I get that right?

Also, since I'm using Mapei grout, I can buy the same color caulk, which would be their MAPESIL AC product...?

I'm assuming that doing all this requires a bit of extra work on the part of the tiler - I think one of the other threads mentioned covering the areas to be caulked when grouting the rest?

Close-- you also caulk the wall tile into the hardwood.

The product is Keracaulk S

It's not extra work. it's REQUIRED work-- just like spreading the thinset.

Don't worry about covering the areas to be caulked. Try not to grout them in, and if you DO get grout in those joints, just clear it out as you go.

Don't you just hate it when a holiday gets in the way of an interesting conversation...

The caulk's been on for about 2 weeks now...no improvement. It's certainly not a big enough deal for me to rip it out and start again, but it does piss me off after all this work.

Bill, it was 2 tubes. I'd guess that they came from the same lot, but not positive. Another possibility is that Tile America didn't exactly "match" whites. Does Keracaulk have different shades of white?

For someone who is yet to do the project--my concern is water penetration into walls, moreso than the slightly unattractive appearance of cracked grout vs. also sometimes unattractive appearance of caulk.

I assume that water can work its way behind cracked grout, yes or no? And water is less likely to get behind a good caulk job, yes or no?

Thinking outside the box, I wonder if the following work for a shower....

Wherever the floor meets walls, and perhaps also along the vertical corners of shower wall intersections, CAULK the initial intersections, THEN ADD a piece of tile molding--if can find a close match to the tile--perhaps a "pencil" or a "quarter round" in the vertical corners, perhaps also at floor to wall intersection, or "baseboard" tile placed over the lowest row of wall tile where the floor meets walls)

Next, THEN could you use grout to "seal" the edges made by the quarter rounds/and/or baseboard pieces? When that grout cracked, it might not look perfect, but the water still wouldn't get behind the tiles cause the initial intersections have been caulked. Correct or not?

Or would you still need to caulk instead of grout those edges?

Would love to hear others opinions on this idea, especially Bill V. (I am NOT an expert by any means on this stuff).

Lainie

Hi Bill - thanks for the follow up.

I just got off the phone with the Mapei sales rep. He said that if the tile guy is using the Ultracolor Plus we can get away without the caulk because it's water-repellent (not waterproof), semi-elastic and has the anti-mildew component as well. He said the Keracolor FF line would work as well, but that the Ultracolor is better.

He also told me that here in Italy Keracaulk S IS Mapesil AC, so at least we're on the same track there...

I assume that water can work its way behind cracked grout, yes or no? And water is less likely to get behind a good caulk job, yes or no?

Water will get behind uncracked grout, as well, and although you're right on that water will have a tougher time getting behind the caulking, that's not what it's for. it's there to provide a flexable movement joint.

Wherever the floor meets walls, and perhaps also along the vertical corners of shower wall intersections,......

Although I've recommended using ceramic 1/4 rounds to hide gauky joints where the tile hits the tub, it's only because it's the lesser of two evils. You really don't want to be adding piece on top of piece if you don't have to. it's a much cleaner look if you just grout the fielf, caulk the corners, and call it good.

The wheel's been around for a long time. :-)

lynnie-- So you're actually IN Milano?? Also, in spite of the rep's advice, I still have to say the caulking is necessary. Not the first time I've argued with reps about their own products, and in one instance, in front of someone from the TCNA who backed me in my argument!

Bill - yes I'm IN Milan, but I've found that these forums (bathrooms, kitchens, and lighting are where I hang out most) are still extremely helpful! Most of these issues are international, regardless of the actual products used! For example, I searched all across Europe for a kitchen sink that had a small side on the left, large side on the right. Finally located a Norwegian brand in the UK. When it finally arrived in Milan, it turned out to be a Kindred!

I called our GC yesterday and found him AT the supplier's, picking up the Ultracolor Plus so they can grout this morning. I think I've lost the battle - maybe I'll put out another thread in a couple of months to let you know how it's holding up!

Thanks to all for the feedback!