I read the description of the plywood and wanted to make sure you know it's got an MDF core, as that may affect the dimensional stability, yes?--here's the link to them (below).

We also bought some 1/4" to face the side of a closet that will be showing, fwiw. All from craigslist, or we could never have afforded all this :)

Here is a link that might be useful: down at the bottom--not much info, but that's what it is

O.K., I'm researching more and here's another question: should I use 1/8" solid walnut as the edging instead of edge banding? Will be tougher, yes? Enough tougher that it's worth it? Do I have to create this 1/8" x 3/4" edging myself? I can, but it will be the first time. (DH will be heavily involved with this aspect of it).

More grist for the mill...thanks for reading any of this!

And this morning, another question: given that the PAX cabinet sides are particleboard, will the *box* be able to hold a 3/4" plywood door? If we use three or even four hinges rather than two, and figure out how to bolt the hinges in rather than screw them (or do we have to do that)?, would that help?

Thanks! With any luck you'll drop around here at some point soon...I'm hoping that "help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask" :)

I'm not Mongo, but I am a cabinetmaker, so I have a few thoughts - If it's MDF core with a walnut veneer, it's not plywood. Plywood would be much lighter, but more likely to be warped, than MDF. Usually, if the sheet of material is flat, the doors you cut out of it will be flat and there would be no need for reinforcement. If the sheet has a warp or twist in it, then doors cut out of it, unless very small, will have that same warp. You wouldn't be able to flatten a warped 3/4 inch door by adding a frame. Assuming you do make doors out of this material, thicker edgebanding is always a good idea, but the application method would be different than if you were just using walnut veneer tape. Tape would be applied with contact cement if it's the unglued type, or a hot iron if it's the pre-glued type. If you were to use 1/8 inch thick walnut, you would need some bar clamps and cauls (pieces of 3/4 inch wood to spread out the clamping pressure) and white or yellow glue. Another way, with more waste, would be to glue on pieces of walnut 3/4 by 3/4 for stiffness (no cauls), then rip the edging down to whatever you want with a tablesaw after the glue dries. Your IKEA cabinet sides should be strong enough to take the weight of MDF doors as long as you use enough hinges. The screws you usually get from IKEA for Blum hinges are fairly large diameter and made to hold well in particleboard. They are about 1/2 inch long and you predrill the board with a 3/16 bit to the depth of the screw, but not too deep if the cabinet side shows. Gary

gary, thanks so much! But I was just about to post: it *is* plywood, actually--it's got 3 layers of real wood on the inside, with a layer of MDF on each outer side. So it's a combination of real plywood with MDF outer layers. Does that affect your sense of the strength of it? It appears flat so far.

Thanks very much for the extended information about finishing and the hinges. Would three hinges be good for about a 90" door? Would four be better or overkill?

I'm confused about the material...the link shows MDF core plywood, your description:

"-it's got 3 layers of real wood on the inside, with a layer of MDF on each outer side. So it's a combination of real plywood with MDF outer layers."

I'll go with the site description, that it's an MDF core with a veneer of walnut ply on each face...is that correct?

The MDF core will make a great door. As Gary wrote, you can edge band it with thin, iron on, pre-glued edging tape. Easiest.

Slightly more involved would be a solid walnut banding, the 1/8th inch to however thick you want it. If these will be stained, a slight problem could be encountered with trying to match the grain quality and color of the edge banding to the veneer on the face of the ply. Not critical, as it's only edge banding...but it's worth mentioning.

Another option would be ripping a 7/8ths to 1" wide rip off the edge of the walnut ply, then feeding that rip through the table saw to remove the walnut veneer from the MDF core. This would provide you with a perfectly matching piece of walnut to use as your edge banding. More complicated though. Success depends on the thickness of the walnut veneer and a well tuned table saw with a sharp blade.

Design wise, the thicker the banding, the more visual it will be, with the banding framing the doors.

For a first timer I'd say cup hinges can be a bit tricky to install, mostly from having to use a forstner bit to drill the hole. A jig will certainly help. Companies like Lee Valley and Rockler have jigs and bit sets just for this purpose...to give you accurate and repeatable holes.

Regardless, do be careful setting the screws. Predrill, as MDF can split or fracture when screwing close to the edge of the sheet.

Also don't overdrive the screw, as the small threads can easily strip out.

You mention 90" tall doors, but not how wide they will be. To be on the safe side, I'd use 4 hinges.

I'm off to Boston for a couple of days, I may or may not be able to check in. But I'll definitely look back here Tuesday at the latest.

Do be careful sanding the walnut, especially near the panel edges. It's all to easy to sand through the veneer and expose the inner MDF core. Not the design statement that I think you're trying to make.

Mongo

Fly, I am here!

Sounds like you want to make some rather large hinged doors. Warping on large plywood doors is a definite problem, less so with mdf as mentioned by others.

What I am going to do with my closet doors is this- shoji screens! Yes, for large expanses, solid wood doors look and feel too heavy. Sliders or hinged solid doors seem oppressive for a closet.

Shoji on the other hand are a brilliant japanese solution to making large partitions without the weight. They are really light, flat, beautiful and architectural. You can buy them at cherrytreedesign or make your own. There is a book called making shoji which is excellent. You can make it with 3/4" walnut. or cherry. Traditionally they are made from cypress or cedar.
{{gwi:1455094}}

If you do go with the plywood, I recommend the burgess edge banding system. I never do taped edges because they look cheap. I use solid wood (to match the plywood veneer) as the edge treatment. You will need a router and a table saw. it is much more work than taping but I am a stickler to such details.

Email me if i can be of any help...

Oh pharoah and mongo, I'm almost overcome with gratitude for your detailed replies...I know I'm overcome with fatigue right now (it's after midnight where I am--DH and I have been shopping for bandsaws and sighing at the price/barrier to entry...we've already got the 10" tile saw, the table saw, the router, the chop saw...I don't know how much more we can take! And craigslist is being useless right now) so I'll just say that I've read them but I will save the attempt at a substantive reply for tomorrow morning.

The burgess system makes great sense, just want to say--it's like what gary was recommending as the alternate method, just a step up (the channel avoids slipping). How do you find these things, pharoah??

But other than that, just a big THANKS for now; see you all tomorrow :)

Ah, what a day...I *think* I've gotten enough caulk off my fingers to type now :) (I'm recaulking the shower, finally, after the disaster my pro left me with)

SO.

Mongo: I promise, really, it's got three layers of plywood, complete with grain visible on the edges, in the middle of two layers of MDF, then the veneer on the outside. Given that it's that (humor me :)), what do you think of construction methods? I read yesterday in an instruction sheet with some Blum hinges at Woodcraft that *5* hinges are recommended for the biggest doors we'll have; then we think 4 for the others. We're planning on the Blum Insertas (Woodcraft doesn't carry them, though--anyone have experience with woodworkerswholesale.com?), full overlay 170 for some of them and 120 for the others. There's a special package with a bit and a jig already put together for Blum hinges, what do you know! DH laughed at your last point (about being careful sanding the veneer). Complete agreement. Sanders are rather bite-y things.

And pharoah, we *were* planning to do a wall of sliding doors with the walnut plywood, but then we realized that 1) I don't want to have the doors have to be the height of a roof beam that runs across about 2' away from the west wall of the room (takes about a foot off the height), and I want to integrate the east wall of the room into the closet configuration with a corner closet extension (for a linen closet), so we can't do the sliding doors if we want the most space possible. Too bad because I was really looking forward to it--I'll just have to look forward to yours :)

But Dwell happened to have a pic of some beautiful built-in walnut high cabinetry just this past week, so I took it as a little sample of what the doors would look like. Not that bad. I can stand it :) Eight doors, no door more than about 20" wide.

We'll look into the Burgess system (differing opinions on it; see link below) and see what we feel most confident doing...DH is practicing with the router but we don't have a router table that you can set the router in--do you? If so, is it permanently installed or can you break it down?

Geez, they say you stay young mentally by learning new things--with all this I expect to be reaching my teens again soon...

Here is a link that might be useful: discussion by people who know better than I do

Well, this morning DH and I are feeling the drag down of the barrier-to-entry of the bandsaw--we want to do this right, and we just don't have the space to dedicate to a decent bandsaw...the walnut seemed much more doable with our tools when it was 3 ceiling-suspended sliding panels (our original plan). Now there are *so* many more edges...

UGH. Fatigue sets in just thinking about it, at this point, after everything we've done.

Does anyone have a good idea about what to do? Or should we just find some kind of Ikea door that we can stand for now?

So gary, mongo, and pharoah:

A question from a woman who has hit her exhaustion point.

If you had to choose between walnut doors with --eek--edgebanding (real walnut) and Ikea doors that would in all probability be painted to match the room, which would you choose?

Thanks.

It's the 1/8" banding that is the huge stumbling block. Everything else seems doable. It *would* be the first choice, but I tell ya I just don't have the energy to do it. I've hit my limit. It's been a 3 year remodel.

But I don't know which of the second-choice options is the least bad.

Any input would be *most* welcome.

Thank you all for your help.

A lot of posts, so I may miss a Q or seven...

Why do you need a bandsaw? All you need to do this (section the sheets into door sized slabs, rip walnut into 1/8th inch strips for edge banding) is a table saw.

One of the places where I buy my teak also surfaces wood in the shop. If I asked, they'd rip a walnut board into eighth-inch strips for me. Is there any place like that near you? You could use a circular saw with a good blade and a solid and sturdy straight-edge guide to rip the sheets into door-sized slabs. But I's still want a table saw to rip the walnut into strips.

The hinges: I buy a lot of stuff from Woodworkers Hardware. Not a fancy outfit with a pretty website, but their prices are good and they've never let me down. I did a quick search to see if they had the 170-degree Insertas, it looks like they do: Mongo says to click me.

The number of hinges? 20" wide doors, four would suffice. Five? Go for it. Take Blum's recommendation over mine, remember I'm in CT and all I seem to build is inset doors with butt hinges. Colonial type junk. I'm not an experienced brainiac when it comes to 32mm cup hinges.

Stained walnut or painted Ikea? That's a big step. Stained walnut would look...exactly like you want this whole project to look. Gawjus. Painted Ikea? Ho hum. But you have to stay within your skill level. And sanity level.

Regarding the Burgess system...I'd recommend against it.

You need close tolerances, you need work space to work so you don't fracture the delicate veneer, you need a lot of things that I don't think you have access to.

Edge banding is quite simple. Use blue painters tape on the veneer so that glue squeezeout doesn't adhere to the walnut veneer.

Use a basic yellow glue like Titebond.

You don't even need clamps, you can use blue tape as your clamps.

You've done so much to date, you certainly have the ability to glue and tape 1/8th inch strips or walnut to the edges of the door sized slabs.

You got skilz, gurl.

Mongo: I promise, really, it's got three layers of plywood, complete with grain visible on the edges, in the middle of two layers of MDF, then the veneer on the outside. Gotcha. The veneer is after the MDF. I didn't see that in your previous description.

Why don't you and Your Man come to CT for the weekend? My shop is your shop. My painters tape is your painters tape.

Road trip!

Mongo

I can't think of anything to add to Mongo's comments. Very thorough. And the blue tape instead of clamps would save a lot of time and the cost of clamps. Gary

Actually, I should mention that many small to medium size cabinet shops now have edgebanders that will handle 1/8" strips of edging. You may be able to find a local shop that would cut your material to size and band it for a fair price. The actual time involved is a matter of minutes, once the machine is running. You may have to bring them the walnut strips if they don't have any remnants. I do things like that all the time for people. The goodwill may lead to larger jobs in the future. Gary

mongo and gary, wow.

You've given me new hope, you horrible people :). I won't give up the idea of nice 1/8" edges for a little longer...

No, seriously--this is *great* news. Gary, you mean a cabinet shop might not only cut the strips but actually *apply* the edges for us??? We'd pay for that (within our capability). We could cut the boards to door size, no problem, and then they'd band them with 1/8 walnut we supply?? Be still my heart!! I'll call around starting today. Thanks.

mongo, I'll take your advice into account even though all you do is that silly inset door stuff :). Pretty much everywhere I read (and asked in person) people said they used a bandsaw for creating 1/8" strips. Cutting the boards to door-size? Yes, a table saw; but the strips were bandsaw work, evidently...unless one is a table saw master like you :). Thanks for the link to woodworkershardware, too. Knowing we can use blue tape is also *extremely* helpful. We are a blue tape sanctuary right now, it seems. And thanks especially for the general encouragement and kind offer :); at this point it doesn't take much to break this camel's back...

The tablesaw would be my first choice. The only negative is the blade is thicker than a bandsaw blade, so you're making more sawdust which means you're wasting more wood.

I recently did a woven lattice door in teak, the woven strips were 3/32nds thick and done on...ta da, the tablesaw.

I'd need a better bandsaw then the one that I have to be able to get accurate and repetitive strips like that.

Last year we made four cedar strip kayaks. You would have loved that setup. I stacked 3 thin kerf blades with 3/8th inch spacers between them on my tablesaw. Each time I pushed the cedar board through the saw, I got three 3/8th inch thick strips.

Like gary wrote, don't overestimate the amount of time and labor edgebanding takes. It's pretty simple.

Even a caveman could do it.

Be a hominid,
Mongo

Yep, mongo, that was the reason for avoiding the table saw--the 3/16" kerf. For every 2/16 slice, we'd be giving up 3/16" in sawdust. But when I calculate the other possible expenses/bothers, it starts not to sound so bad now... What is the kerf that you used with that triple-setup? And what brand? It does sound impressive, indeed; it's got an extra difficulty multiple calculated into your score :)

Woven lattice door in teak? The thought makes me *sigh*.

Don't worry about creating a little extra sawdust. Were I to try to cut a bunch of strips in my bandsaw, I'd probably waste whole strips due to the blade walking. My bandsaw just isn't that good. A tablesaw will give you perfect strips.

Waste not, progress not.

I have a slew of table saw blades. Forrest, Amana, Dewalt, Freud, and I'm sure one or two others. The one that spends the most time in my saw is a 10" Forrest Woodworker II thin-kerf. But you can do well with a blade costing half that amount.

Not quit typing, get to the tablesaw and start stripping with your husband. blush Er...start ripping strips with your husband.

Mongo

"Gary, you mean a cabinet shop might not only cut the strips but actually *apply* the edges for us???"

In my shop, we buy strips already sized 3mm (1/8")X 1" wide. We do this because they are clean, straight and have no saw marks from the saw blade. Sometimes they are actually solid wood, other times they are glued up from thinner veneers with the grain all running the same direction. You have to look really close to see the difference between this and solid wood. The advantage is that these strips are more flexible and stable than solid wood, but look just as good (in my opinion). They usually come 8' long and are fed into the edgebander much like a roll of veneer tape. The machine applies hot glue, pressure, routs the top and bottom flush and flush cuts the ends with high speed circular saws mounted on routers. On a good machine, four passes through and you're done. Maybe a little hand sanding before finishing, just to be sure, but it's that easy. (Once you spend $40,000 or so on the machine) Anyone with an edgebander would know where to send you to buy the strips. A shop with an edgebander like that would also be likely to have a table or panel saw with a scoring blade, which would give you very clean cuts in the panels with no tear-out on the back side. Let them cut your panels to size. Good luck, Gary

mongo and gary, thanks again. The Forrest looks good; we usually get Freud, and I've never heard of Amana (looks like I should have, from googling them...). And I take your point about the tablesaw vs. the band saw; I wonder why so many folks use the band saw for it, given what you say (and I respect your opinion/expertise completely).

Gary, that's *impressive*. Wow. I'd love to see that in action. I'll try to find a shop like yours, although I can't imagine there are that many of them, esp. combined with a generous owner like you...I see we're just one state up; what a pity. So near and yet so far...hmmm...would you happen to know anyone up in the PDX area who would be able to do/open to doing what you've described? Just thought I'd ask in the off chance that you can think of someone right off the top of your head.

"would you happen to know anyone up in the PDX area who would be able to do/open to doing what you've described?"

I don't know any cabinetmakers in other states, but where is the PDX area? I've never heard that term. These days, to be competitive in commercial and architectural millwork, most shops eventually get an edgebander unless they only do smaller residential work. At least that's what my machinery salesmen tell me. Gary

Oh, sorry, gary--Portland, Oregon. It's the airport abbreviation but somehow everyone uses it for the name of the area...

And that information helps me narrow my search, even in itself.

I'm glad you happened to see my post!

Don't get me wrong Fly, a bandsaw would be terrific to use.

I just happen to have a cheapie Delta 14" bandsaw, but even after tuning it up, my saw doesn't track well enough to reliably cut strips like that.

A good band saw with the proper blade could do that with ease.

Mongo

mongo, or gary: I would really appreciate your take on this...a cabinetmaker I've been in touch with about doing the 1/8" edging (seems like a very nice guy) is saying now that he's thought about the project and heard the size of the doors the 1/8" doesn't seem thick enough to get glued (and nailed? I wasn't thinking about nailing it) securely--he'd prefer 1/4". Alternatively, he said he has a colleague who has a machine like yours, Gary, that can do 1/8" edging for us.

Do you all still think that 1/8" would be adequate? I've certainly seen it on full-height doors. Would 1/4" break the continuity of the panel pattern?

All thoughts appreciated...thanks.

mongo or gary, I'm hoping this doesn't get lost...

Sorry, just back from vacation. Yes, another one! Been off the forum for a while.

The 1/8" would look great, and is easy and practical to install, and less visually obtrusive in case the wood grain, texture, and color don't match well.

You could also intentionally go for contrast, ebony or a darker banding with the walnut doors. Depends on the look you're going for, but my guess is you want it all to blend.

Just to let you know, for stain grade I'd never nail and glue. Just nail. I buy Titebond 4 gallons at a time, it's a fine product. Never had an edge delaminate from plywood.

All work and not play makes Mongo a dull boy.

Well rested, and radiantly yours,

Mongo

mongo, THANKS for replying! Say, weren't you in France just a few months ago? I like your sense of the proper proportions of work and play :)

So you say you'd not nail and glue the edging on, but rather just *nail*? And then you say you buy Titebond? I don't get it...did you mean you'd *glue* only? Please explain. Glad to hear that the 1/8" would be tough enough.

Hope you see this too...for my wonderful vacation from doing house project today, I got to go to the dentist and have a root canal. A couple of nice mochi are easing the way back from novocaine land.

NOT rested, NOT radiant, but determined like a dog with a bone...

Here is a link that might be useful: the miyakawa brand, in green tea--makes everything better :)

AAAAAhhhhhhhhhhh!

Okay, maybe I'm too well rested.

Just Glue. Glue only. No nails.

I'm Sooooo sorry.

I hate when I do that.

Bad Mongo. Bad Bad Mongo.

(whimper)
Mongo

FOrgot to add:

Yup, was in France a few weeks ago. This last trip was a simple trip to the beach for a week and a half. Slow and easy.

Would you hate me if I told you my next vacation is in three days?

Lordy, good luck with the tooth.

Mochi! I'm jealous!

Mongo

Mongo, you're going to be so relaxed you won't be able to stand up straight LOL!

O.K., thanks for clarifying. That makes sense--DH and I figured that was what you meant, but it was so unlike you that I thought I should ask. I'm used to precision from you, you know :)

And the mochis worked their magic as usual (thank you, Trader Joe's :)), so I'm up and at'em again today. I'll write the cabinetmaker and go with the 1/8".

Hope you can survive the rat race for another two days :)