Everybody expects a first class experience at a coach price.

Word...

-Stooxie

There is no best: range, refrig, dish washer, etc, etc, etc.

Nonsense. Sometimes there are objectively best in class products and sometimes not.

Shut up, Doug.

@laat2 - "Shut up, Doug"

Wow, that's an itelligent response!

Unfortunately, doug, product marketing does not conform to the common sense you espouse. TV, Twitter, ads and everything else companies can fling at consumers allude to a lifestyle someone should be expect no matter what their budget. No one likes to feel or hear they must settle for second best because they cannot afford to have something of quality.

Many people who cannot otherwise afford luxuries will stretch to buy something of quality for their home -- if they can't afford fancy dinners at least they can have a great fridge, or range etc.

The disconnect arises when the so-called quality isn't but the price is. So some of the gnashing is protective. I don't feel it's normal to pay $7K for a stove and then have repairs on a brand new product. People stay home from work waiting for service calls -- so it cuts two ways. We see that all the time across brands at most levels.

I think the manufacturers should get their acts together if they don't want unhappy consumers. I have personally watched a repair tech call the factory of a high end oven manufacturer and explain that the schematics that were sent to him don't match the wiring he is seeing. When he asked for help, no one at the factory he could reach that morning could guide him.

When it gets to that there is a problem far more basic than expectations or where someone lives.

doug i agree that there is no such thing as the "best" to go looking for in a forum query.

I've often posted that there isn't any "best" as a response to a newbie's asking for tips on getting the best. Nobody has ever contradicted me. But, I add a few tips and helpful ideas. You didn't; you were expressing your own grief more than helping. If you give ideas on how to use the system, you are helping. If you tell people to get a grip you've only gone partway. Sometimes that is OK. Telling people to get a grip. OK. But it's just a jab, not a "broad outlook".

As a broader outlook, let's point out now that there are many tall 24"w fridges worldwide and there are so many millions manufactured that one can benefit from low cost (economies of scale). You or I could not survive if we tried to build a fridge of that quality in that price range ( $500 to $1000 ) . I think people should consider getting two fridges of that size. It's one way to have a lot and spend very little.

rococogurl made valid points.

@davidrol - "you were expressing your own grief more " Grief about what? "If you tell people to get a grip you've only gone partway" Here again, I have no idea where you get those interpretations.

I was simply sharing my experiences. IMO - paying a premimum price does not mean you will get a 'solid' product. I think it did years ago, but not now. I've had a number of high valued cars, one especially was a money pit. The guys at the BMW dealership joke that BMW means 'Bring Money With'. Similarly, I had a minor annoyance with a Volvo (that was under warranty). The dealer wanted to remove the dash - I told them I'd live with it!

I think part of the problem is that everything (not just appliances) seems to be constantly changing. While this might seem exciting - the people back at 'the factory' / techs have a hard time keeping up with newer and newer revs. Actually them become numb to it.

IMO, a high price is no longer an indicator of reliability, or longevity. It may be style, features, and promises - but there's complexity in those 'elements'.

I agree with you Dave, many people might be better off buying a $1000 fridge every eight years (throw it out when the door gasket is shot) than buying one for $6,000 which probably won't last more than 16 yrs

>>I hope you gals would take this as a positive criticism

Like the Teen Talk Barbie said: "Math class is tough!"

A broad's outlook, indeed. Not all of us are gals, skirts, or even dames. Some of us are... wait, what's the Mad Men-era term for 'male'? Oh, I guess that would be 'men.' After all, appliances are just big gadgets. If only my vent hood came with a remote...

"After all they are just mechanical devices!"

Yes, but they have souls...nefarious souls....and they all get together after midnight when the moon is full and plot what they're going to do to me next! And they draw lots for which installers will be compelled to do their bidding come the morrow!

asolo writes: "Yes, but they have souls...nefarious souls....and they all get together after midnight when the moon is full and plot what they're going to do to me next!"

In the early months of 1995, our Westinghouse washing machine (then 21 years old), our Kenmore clothes dryer (then 17 years old), and our Amana refrigerator (which we had owned for 17 years, but had purchased used, so it was older than that), conspired to give up the ghost serially, but all within a period of only a few weeks preceding our son's graduation from a prestigious private college for the tuition and fees of which we had sold our souls. Six years later, our kitchen faucet rusted through the same week that our toaster died and the upstairs toilet went kaput. The short story fantasy writer Ron Goulart had written in the 1960s about the coming revolution when the appliances would band together to overthrow their owners; we witnessed it in our own household.

"...Ron Goulart....the coming revolution when the appliances would band together to overthrow their owners..."

Verily I descry the man a prophet!

Can I summarize this post as "Women are bad appliance shoppers?"

Laat2 might have a valid point, too.

paying a premimum price does not mean you will get a 'solid' product.Hence this forum which helps ferret out those appliances for which a premium price is actually justified vs those which are not.

There actually are quality products and companies that stand behind them. Why we like to talk about "best."

The rest seems tautological.

You "gals?"

What in the hell does the sex of anyone on here have to do with it? Somehow we seem to manage okay around here without dragging gender into things unless it's relavent for some reason.

So you managed to turn a post that was simply leaden and self-evident into paternalistic and insulting. Way to go. So the women need your mansplainin' to get that appliance shopping done because it's sooo hard, but the men don't. Give me a break.

I knew it. OP probably should have but....jeez!

IMHO, my initial post has revealed much about what some of the regular forum participants are 'about' and how they add their spin to anything that they think is threatening.

Initially, I just wanted to say (what I thought) was a pratical perspective on appliances. To give some 'inside' info why things are so screwed up, give you a leg up.

Instead of a conversation about the inside issues, I've gotten: My grief, my anger, addressing this to gal's - gal is a bad word, not including men is equally a sin, then implying that manufacturer's are undependable - offends people here who think they can determine 'the best', another person told me 'there is the best'.

I'll just say that I've bought many a Volvo - now they are owned by a Chinese company - Sheely (sp?). One can never tell nowadays.

In 30 yrs of being on line - this is the first forum I've ever posted on where a goodly number of the participants read a lot more into a post, than the content.

For you people who want to imply, read into, critque the usage of a pronoun - good luck to you. I understand that you may have no other power in your life other than nit pick!

My post will scroll off very soon, and then you nano-managers / pc police / self imposed god's can get back to giving all sorts of new posters your golden opinons. And you will be sooo happy that you can exercise some level of control with your opinions.

IMO... this is a toxic forum! Sorry I imposed on your domain.

Actually, I thought you did fine. But you're certainly welcome to go stuff yourself if you'd prefer.

doug_gb that was great.

I think "gals" only stood out because the post was so incoherent and lacking content.

It was meant to single out women as the special beneficiaries of his warehouses of knowledge. It's the ladies that need that special mansplainin' don't you know. Thanks, Polonius. Hope you're not too butthurt.

I can't believe it. I just got here today, and read all of this at once. I can't believe it. At this point, I'm starting to feel sorry for Doug!

Doug, it it pretty rude to come into a new situation, declare yourself to be an expert, and tell all of the participants that they're stupid. Oh, and to add what is easily perceived--however you meant it--as a derogatory and sexist comment. That's why everyone is ganging up on you.

As to what you've said, you're right that people should be more patient when the repairman has a far way to drive. But the complainers are also right that the repair companies should schedule enough travel time so that the guy can reasonably arrive there at the scheduled time, including giving him enough time to gas up and visit the restroom.

Your attitude toward appliance quality is a bit off, however, from the skilled user's point of view. It may be true that Joe Chicken Nuggets and Jane Gallon Jug won't notice the difference between the cheap, mass produced appliances, the mid-range top quality appliances, and the luxury appliances, but those of us who are heavy kitchen users, and who expect to wring the last bit of utility out of our appliances, really can tell the difference. Yours is more of a Consumer Reports attitude, looking not for the very best, but for the most adequate for your buck.

I will agree with you that the marginal difference between a good mid-range fridge, for example, and a high end luxury fridge is far smaller than the marginal price difference. One pays an awful lot more for something that's only a little better, but it is better. At least to some of us. I was buying a new box of baking soda for baking the other day. I was in a big chain store, so saw the fancy new "fridge" box (my regular store only has the basic one). It took me a minute. I had forgotten that one ever might need a box of baking soda in the fridge. Is baking soda for the life of the fridge, and those little plastic things that are supposed to keep your veggies fresh too, a lot less money than the cost of the better fridge? Yes!! But the better fridge does a heck of a better job!

This isn't something you can analyze on your computer if you don't do a statistically significant number of longitudinal site surveys first to have data about the units in action. Not attitudinal studies, but actual measurements with recording sensors of what's actually going on inside the boxes in actual people's houses. Lacking that, please understand that the people who post here actually use their appliances and share what they've learned with the people who come here and ask for information.

We have plenty of folks who have all levels, except maybe the cheapest models that are meant for apartment rentals. When people are looking for the best, they generally mean the best in their price range. There really is such a thing. With refrigeration, where most units handle the basic function of getting cold pretty well, the difference is more on the lines of which one has too deep a freezer drawer, which one's freezer doesn't fit stuff right, which has good lighting and which has the right shelves for the particular family, but there are the ones that hold their temperatures best, that have consistent temperature throughout the box, that do a better job of not drying out the food, or making the veg rot, which are easier to clean, which ones are hard to open, etc., etc., etc. There really is a best fridge. It may be different for each of us, but there is one.

So . . . let me get this straight. We have an Internet chat board where some people take what seems to be an overblown interest in a narrow subject that's of relatively little interest outside the world of the chat board? On which some posters are highly opinionated? Sensitive about the reception of their opinions? On which some posters seem to have an inflated opinion of the quality of their own posts? On which some are more reasonable than others (and, by extension, some less)? Did somebody call the New York Times?

I'm just a guy and inclined to think that you're half right in your post and all right about "best" -- best for whom, according to what preferences and perceptions? OTOH, they're not just widgets, right? That is, there are differences that might matter to some folks who might like to consider those differences and ask for others' opinions about them. I mean, it's an Internet chat board devoted to kitchen appliances. What's it supposed to be?

Some of us overlooked the pedantry and responded respectfully to the substance of doug's post, such that it was.

But received no meaningful response in return.

Then he yells "toxic" and flounces off. So useful.

Rococogurl wrote:

>>Then he yells "toxic" and flounces off.

Wait, you got a problem with those of us that flounce?

(sorry, I couldn't resist)
Yes, the internet is known to have forums where people get off topic. As a self imposed god, I blame myself.

Back to appliance talk...

Maybe instead of "A Broader Outlook" the subject line should have been "A New Outlook for Broads." No harm intended I'm sure, probably just a general assumption that it's mainly gals who are on internet forums while the guys are busy earning a paycheck. :-P

@rococogurl: Your post seemed more like a statement than a question. So I didn't respond.

To further clairify what I was trying to share: Components (like compressors / expansion valves / cold controls / fractional hp fan motors / igniters ) are made by only a few vendors. You may get the same compressor in a SubZero as you do in a GE.

The most neglected item is make up air. Around 800 cfm / or if you have a grill you should have make up air. But's that's going to cost another $3-$5k.

this concurs with my observations. Components are not highly differentiated. I would be skeptical if anyone posted now to say that any one company was far far more masterful at designing their control board and that the end result was a far far more even temperature.

Chest freezers are all good. They are all the same "old" technology, a known quantity. Fridges are moving in that direction. The differences are not as big as they used to be back in the days when SZ was building its reputation.

The GardenWeb forums in general are frequented by three general categories of folks:

1. The well informed shopper looking for information and opinions on a product. They are usually polite and non-toxic.
2. The clueless shopper who either can't or won't do the legwork to find the data they need. They want someone to tell them what to buy/do. Whiny but harmless.
3. The "helpful" poster, who thinks they know more than everyone else - especially the ladies. These folks are rare but they like to start fights and then cry foul. Their posts tend to ramble - even more than this one - and are often self-promoting. See post from the OP for an example of this.

Personally, I have learned a great deal from all of you and have made good decisions because of the information I found here. I thank you.

I thought the OP said his bit OK. Didn't think over-long or particularly rambling. Got some agreement and some dispute like many posts do. Don't see any problem with that.

Do think over-reaction from posters about the "you gals" part which apparently caused ballistic reaction here and there. I regard as trivial.

However the OP's "toxic forum" follow-up was silly. Along with sharing of opinions, disputation is part of the game on forums. Others put up with you and you put up with them...unless you're too thin-skinned to endure it, in which case probably best not to participate.

None of us writes precisely and clearly what we intend to convey on every single occasion. Some folks can't even put coherent sentences back-to-back but, even then, you can usually figure out what they're trying to say. Have to be a least a little flexible, I think.

"Personally, I have learned a great deal from all of you and have made good decisions because of the information I found here. I thank you."

Ditto that.

OK. can we go by process of elmination. Is there sucha thing like bad appliances?

Doug-- you made a statement. If no one had responded it would have sat there. I responded. You might disagree with what I said. That's fine. I happen to feel that discussion furthers understanding.

If you come onto this forum and think we're all dopes who need information handed down to us, you would have made a serious miscalculation.

It's fine to say that the compressors are the same in most fridges. But trust me, no one here will fallen off his/her chair in surprise. Similar to the igniters in ranges. But so what? There are other significant factors that can be combined to produce a quality vs a non-quality product. Not to mention disposal issues when folks dump those "cheap" refrigerators every few years.

Perhaps it's simple to you. But simple doesn't necessarily make purchases any easier. People come here by and large to get informed so they can make better decisions about expensive products they are usually buying blind. Fewer are interested in technical aspects -- unless there's a repair needed.

There are market issues and many other factors. If you want to have an intelligent conversation with any number of posters here who are more than capable of same, it's available.

But it will be more fun -- and more likely -- if you lose the 'tude.

applianceauthority, i agree that this is a good question.

As far as I know, new small fridges can be bought for little rental apartments and they will provide wonderful service to the renters. Little fridges that cost less than $200 and are 36"h, or bigger fridges that cost double or triple that price and are twice as big.

When you go to Sears or that type of store, you see a range of products. At the low end, they are all designed to appeal to homeowners who want low price goods. They are not the smallest fridges, designed for small rental units. I don't know if the cheapest 'Sears type" fridge is bad, these days. Five years ago I would have advised people to avoid getting the low end of the product range at a Sears kind of store.

rococogurl made valid points.

@applianceauthority & @davidro1

I have worked for the DoD, and several defense contractors. I wrote the software, they supplied the hardware. I learned a lot from the hardware engineers.

The difference between an average component and a DoD spec'd component - may just be in the statistical testing of the product. Some lots are great, some are terrible - same part - same vendor.

Naturally, simplicity wins. Ranges with standing pilots will probably last 100 yrs with no maintenance. But there are laws....

Same with fridges. If SubZero has two compressors - with two different thermostats with simple (no circuit boards) controls then it might be a great fridge. Once you introduce complexity - repair becomes expensive - especially once the product gets outside of the 'lab' where you have unlimited resources to test problems.

Even for the DoD self testing is too expensive - most manufacture's test their products to have a confidence interval of 99%, thus this is their insurance policy that there will not be a lot of warranty work.

From my experience most of the hardware problems are either connectors, contacts (buttons), or heat realated issues.

With 400+lb fridges - how easily are they accessible from the front? - without having to pull them out of the enclosure? This alone might be a deciding cost of ownership item.

Control panels are another issue. What happens if the dishwasher works - except the 'start' button is worn out, and that button is flow soldered to the circuit board? Bingo - an $500 repair.

Lastly spare parts. They cost money to manufacture and stock, spare parts are money sitting on the shelf. I'd venture to guess that a circuit board for a 6 year old dishwasher costs more than to replace the unit.

I was attempting to say (in my 'blaming', 'sexist', 'know it all') original post - that it is very hard to claim which mechanical item is best. The design/features might be the 'best' for your requirements, but that doesn't mean the device will last any longer (although you would hope so.)

I know you people are not morons, and I don't want to turn this into Consumer Reports - which I detest.

We have Viking appliances - which most god's on this forum loathe. But they have performed very well for us(in the six years that we have owned them). Before that we had a Garland range & grill since 1980. We had a really ugly experience with getting the fridge repaired - but that's what happens when you buy the top 2%.

Maybe if the manufacturer actually came out and published their unit testing / acceptance requirement, and realistic cost of ownership - then you could compare 'best products'.

Otherwise 'best products' is a historical perspective.

"Maybe if the manufacturer actually came out and published their unit testing / acceptance requirement, and realistic cost of ownership - then you could compare 'best products'.

Otherwise 'best products' is a historical perspective."

Agreed -- historical and in many ways subjective. We could ask about certain markers after the fact -- e.g., how many service calls at 3 years or 5 years or median 5-year or 10-year maintenance and repair costs. But all sorts of dimensions of long-term performance, and certainly customer satisfaction generally, are going to have subjective components.

It could be very useful if the mfgs published some of their testing (methods as well as results), and maybe more useful still if the testing were done independently, but they don't and it's not (at least not for the most part). Some, but not all -- I suspect that some quality control testing might be of real interest to consumers and some rather little.

I sort of think that the CS surveys can be very useful if one doesn't read too much into them, but they definitely have their limits (and the CS product testing has different limits, and quite a few of them even if we ignore the fact that there are many products on the market that they don't test at all).

So maybe we can agree that a mix of similar (and sometimes the same) components can yield complex devices that seem very different to the users? Apart from the apparent drama attached to definite rankings that some posters might offer-up, and defend with great and puzzling passion, I think that most posts are at this level, and potentially of great interest to some people who are plunking down their hard-earned money and wondering what the results will be like (and may or may not get some good information from their sales-persons, some of whom are terrific, some good, and some terrible -- but it's a very uneven knowledge base out there and none of those folks are dispassionate 3d-party observers).

So, that's a bit of a ramble, but thanks for coming back with something clearer to talk about.

I agree with djg1. Glad, you came back, Doug. Now that you know and respect that the women rule here, your experience-based perspective is welcome. :-) As one who lived without a range vent hood but with an antique double oven, 6 burner, open flame range with a standing pilot for 20+ years (that never needed a repair until I tried to include it in my kitchen reno), a budget Maytag fridge, and a non-functional Kenmore dishwasher for most of that same time, I can tell you that I was totally bewildered by the world of appliances when I entered it as a would-be consumer 4 years ago. Now, thanks to the AF, I have a kitchen full of "top of the line" appliances which look great and (usually)perform marvelously. And, yes, while I tout their good points, and recommend them to others, I also shudder at the thought of warranty expiration for all of them. Does that mean that, in this era of planned obsolescence in the appliance manufacturing industry, I would return to the world of low budget appliances if I had it to do all over again? Not. However, and having never needed to call in a service tech for my antique range or budget fridge in all those years, it's a mixed and ironic blessing to now be able to claim superior care and attention by the team that services my high end fridge. It's also a real curse whenever I have to call another country in order to deal with the service-less, so-called "service" team for my niche product range!