I have a kitchen aid and happy with the results - the only thing i'd change is the amount of time it takes to run a load. I don't know if there are dishwashers out now adays that can do a load in less than 45 minutes. it seems there should be.

Food, there is nothing -Nothing- my Bosch 800 doesn't get clean. I use Finish Powerballs (not Quantum). Maybe you should change the detergent you're using. (I also don't see how a Miele can be quieter than silent).

Foodonastuff/Dadoes -

I'm no applicance repair gurus, but figure I replace the inlet valve 1st. If that does not resolve it, then it's probably the solenoid. Or Option B is to have a true *pro* -appliance rep come out, diagnose and repair. Either way, I'm guesstimating $200 on average minimum...

I'd rather spend money on a *old car*

Plumberry - Miele does make a awesome one. I believe one clean load can be done in 18 minutes or something to that effect !

I plan to give Miele a car tomorrow. I'm not going to walk into this expecting anything, afterall, it is a 6-7 year old unit.

Miele does make a dishwasher that can indeed clean a load in a very short amount of time. I have one installed in my kitchen. To say i love it would be an understatement.

The ProSpeed cycle takes around 19/20 minutes, Universal(Normal) takes about 40 and Pots/Pans clocks in under an hour. It's also the best cleaning dishwasher I have ever used and that's saying something.

The inlet valve and solenoid to make it function should be a unitary part ... unless there's something different about Miele components.

According to our consumer magazine
, the Miele dishwashers with AutoOpen dry better than the Bosch models with Zeolith (and these aren't even available in the US). Recently, I started poping open the door on my Bosch two inches after the drying cycle and plastics will be dry in 15 minutes. It's basically what Miele's system does automatically.

Cleaning is equal between Miele and Bosch. Can't comment on cycle time because my Bosch is a 230V unit. The Miele Pro comes in two versions: 120V and 240 - or something.

Do you have a service manual? They are floating around online. It should be something like Miele G1000/G2000 Service Manual for your model.

Alex

"The Miele Pro comes in two versions: 120V and 240 - or something."

Alex, that is correct. Having a 120V version of the machine makes absolutely NO sense. Part of the allure of the Miele Pro is its super fast cycle times. That can only be achieved with rapid water heating which can only be accomplished with 240V.
It is incomprehensible to me that someone would spend that kind of money on a 120V machine.

MarkB -

I'm still entertaing the idea of that 5K Miele....

Spec paper aside, do you find it more noiser or even more *damage* with the fast cycle times of the pro grade machine (aka, is it harder on dinnerware) ?

Try googling Miele Optima Repair.

There are a lotta posts on Fixya, etc etc.

Your problem could be as simple as a float valve problem, or maybe just a stuck float, there are good descriptions on how to trouble shoot water intake problems on the Miele Optima.

Also list the part number for the water inlet valve and I will see if I can find it for a better price~~~~~but be sure to do the simple checks first, IE, float & float switch, inlet filters, etc etc.

Gary

Chef,

The Miele I have is PG 8080i. The price including the SS door panel was approximately $3700. The 8000 series are all new models that have been made a bit more civilized for the high end residential and semi-commercial market. In other words, these new models are very quiet.

As is typical of Miele, there is a built in water softener. The refill container is in the door as opposed to the dishwasher floor making it easier to add salt. There are no exposed heating elements which is a new feature for the commercial models. The dishwasher arrives "plug and play." It comes with a braided stainless steel water hose attached as well as a four prong 30 amp power cord attached as well. You'll need a 30 amp four prong outlet (just like an electric dryer) installed under the sink. There is also an AutotDose module you can purchase that will add liquid detergent automatically. I opted out of that.

As far as dish damage, there isn't any. I can't see that it's harder on dinnerware than any other dishwasher.

The Pro models are rated 48dB, which probably relates to Q5. It's not super loud, though.

These units aren't any more damaging than any other domestic dishwasher. One should make sure that glasses don't wobble during loading, however. Same goes for some plastic items. The circulation rate in these is 50 gallons a minute. The new European Pro units, such as the Brillant esp. for glasses, circulate 105 gallons a minute.

One thing to keep in mind is that enzymatic detergents aren't optimal for very fast cycles that start off hot right away. It's probably best to stick with powders or, if you want to wash glasses on that ProSpeed cycle, gel. Of course, Miele also provides a dedicated detergent that the dishwasher doses itself.

The European Pro models of which Alex speaks are the direct replacement for the 7000 Professional series sold here as well as abroad. I'm fairly certain it will be some time before we see these in the States although I hope I'm wrong. Unlike the current 7000 series, the EuroPro models have hidden heating elements, are more water and energy efficient and are significantly quieter than the models they are replacing.

Alex is correct regarding the 50 GPM recirculation rate, which is a substantial amount of water movement. To put that number in perspective, the "de rigueur" Hobart produced KitchenAid's of the '50's, '60's and '70's had a recirculation rate of 40 GPM, while todays residential machines peak out less than 19 GPM.

Dodge59 -

Spoke to Miele TS. They sorta confirm my hunch it's the inlet valve.

Thank you for the offer. I don't have a part # for the hose. The way Miele is setup, and in googling for the part #, it looks like no 3rd party appliance parts online shops carry this stuff and if memory recalls, all Miele parts are *ordered* from Miele HQ.

At 200 for the hose, IF I could get my hands on it...
If not, it's still $200 for the hose and let's say $175 on a service fee.

Click the helpful link below.
It could save you a lot of money!!!

Gary

Here is a link that might be useful: Use a GE valve in your Miele DW

Thanks Dodge. Have you used a similar fix in the past on a Miele.

Just curios what made you come up with the *keywords* to google and find that link

I just ordered one. Hopefully it does the trick.

Otherwise, I think I'm going to get that 220V Miele. I recall seeing the specs on it when it 1st came out and I said, that is AWESOME

sjhockeyfan:

Food, there is nothing -Nothing- my Bosch 800 doesn't get clean.

Does your Bosch clean off a piece of parsley that's been dried onto a dish for a week or so? Or similarly aged food burnt onto a Pyrex 9x13? If so, your Bosch is better than my Bosch, and better than my old Miele.

Admittedly, part of my downgrading of Bosch might not be entirely fair, but I can't help but count the inexplicable twice a month or so occurrence of the detergent dispenser not opening as a fault. No, nothing blocks it, ever. Unfortunately I typically don't notice it until my 7 y.o. complains that the glasses taste dirty. At which point I have to rewash my whole house because WhoTH knows exactly what was in the last load.

Maybe you should change the detergent you're using.

Maybe I should. But despite all I read on this forum I have an extremely difficult time believing that given the same quality water at the same input temp as it's always been, same quantity of detergent, same brand of rinse aid... that it's something other than the DW that's to blame. I almost bought some tabs a while back until I saw the cost per load. Really, that's what it takes? That said, I will note that I've not yet bought or added softening salt, which I suppose I should because we do have hard water. (Not that my Miele ever seemed to care.)

I also don't see how a Miele can be quieter than silent.

I suppose everyone's definition of silent is different. I recall watching a youtube video of a member's "silent" induction cooktop and being stunned that even over amateur recordings my less than perfect ears heard it cycling on and off! My Bosch is advertised at 42dBA, and I know there are quieter models. However, the Bosch is properly installed between cabinetry with plywood sides, as opposed to the Miele which was thrown in a hole, no wall at all in between it and the sink base, never got around to installing kick plate. If the Bosch is accidentally opened mid-cycle less often than the Miele, it's only because of the red light on the floor. No doubt in my mind the Miele was way more quiet.

To be clear, I actually like and would recommend my Bosch, with the caveat "check out the middle rack which I CANNOT seem to load efficiently." It's just not as good as my old Miele.

chefwong, fortunately in the 8 years I've had the Miele, I've never had a problem with it, alto it only gets used a couple times per month at most.

Having had 2 Mercedes Benzes, (SL's), I learned how to find "reasonably priced parts", as those 2 cars sure needed a lot of parts/service in the 10 - 15 years I had them.

(Example), Heater control box for Mercedes, $900, Exact same box, (built by Chrysler), $300, put in the Chrysler box, still worked when I sold the car~~~anyway you get the idea of where I come from?

So when & if, the Miele breaks, yes I will try that valve~~~~~Please let us know how it works out, as it will help the next person here!!!

Gary

Dodge -

I've got a E36 that is a weekend track rat.
But most of my ~roundels~, I've now reverted to 3 year leases. In the past, I would buy a new one and cycle the old one to my wife. You just can't tinker with new cars these days. Changing a Battery requires it to be programmed. Paying premium price and when going to the *dealership to get OEM parts*, only to be slapped in the face with the new OEM branded/stamped parts show COO is PRC ! I kid you not.

Back on topic:
I cracked opened the box and clearly Miele does not want you to tinker with it and they have epoxied the beast together. More homework to continue on the inlet valve....

This post was edited by chefwong on Wed, Jun 18, 14 at 9:51

In doing more research on that inlet valve, it appears it is a double valve, and is set up so if one valve sticks open, then the other will close to prevent flooding the DW or your floor!!! There also seems to be a "Leak detector" built in too, so if a leak develops, it will shut off the water.

I would do a lotta "Googling" before decided to replace that valve, with a non stock part~~~~~~You could lose some of the "back up Safety features" (IE Flood prevention).

Here is the service manual for the Optima, You also might want to check with the other poster in this thread who fixed his.

Here is a link that might be useful: Optima Service Manual

I called my Appliance guy to see if I could get a nary discount on the PG8083....

Asked him if he had any Bosch's in the shop. He said *hell no*...anyone spending XX dollars, should be looking at Miele only. Bosch doesn't dry, etc. He's a straight shooter so I found his comment interesting.

Another place I frequent, I swung by after work yesterday. The rep was not adament about either brands, but he did note that Miele has Blurbs, that down the road, they are considering service on Mieles to be only MIELE branded techs only. Which is a + or - I suppose. I've always preferred MieleCare- Miele techs. They are factory trained and only *service Miele*. So his opinion was a moot point for me, but I suppose for more cost conscious consumers who are looking for a normal *joe appliance repair guy* to service said machines, it may be harder in the future

foodonastump: I'm not surprised that all other things being equal, the new dishwasher doesn't clean as well. But, that does not mean you shouldn't check those other variables! New dishwashers are quiet and energy efficient, and they accomplish that by using a wimpy pump. Yes, this includes even the best dishwashers like Bosch and the non-pro Miele. Because they have such wimpy pumps, new dishwashers are much more sensitive to water hardness, water temperature, detergent quality/quantity, and rinse aid. If all those things are taken care of, they should have no problems getting non-prerinsed dishes clean.

IMHO I would repair the Miele, hands down. I have 12 year old appliances and they're much more reliable than the stuff made these days. My KA dishwasher needed one repair - a new heating element and my KA fridge just needed a new relay. I'm extremely happy with the performance and look of my appliances and would pay up to at least half the cost of the appliances to repair them. Unfortunately these days, newer is not better. FYI - my 33 year old Whirlpool fridge is still going strong in the garage - never needed any service. It was really good to have it as backup when my newer fridge needed to be repaired a few weeks ago.

OT, but it's interesting how price protected items works

My sales guy gave me a initial price of $1529 on the Bosch 9 series integrated. Then he realized it was a MAP product and had to price sell it at $1899.

I'd fix what you have, too. $350ish total cost is not that much and you certainly cannot buy a decent DW for that , let alone a Bosch or KA.

Been doing some rough math......

I DON'T HAVE a rough idea of what things on a DW can fail, so bear with me here on the thought process

I paid $1500 for the Unit 6-7 years ago.
To repair the unit, assuming that is the only part needed, it would be $210 shipped to me. How long it will last till I need another repair is questionable. I don't like putting money into a *old car* if repairs are going to compound onto another due to age.

Granted, my 2 previous fridges are still working at my Mom's House and Uncles- and a wild guess is both are anywhere from 15+ years with NO repairs on them at all. And these are not premium friges. Ones a KA and another is a Amana.

Option A: Repair and hope I don't need to put another repair into it within a short time frame

Option B: Replace.
Couple options....

With a newborn in the house, the reality of cutting sheetrock, patch, paint etc to get a proper 10AWG to feed the Miele PG dishwasher I want is somewhat a challenge. Hell, I'm still working off my Spring to do honeylist and we are now in Summer.

Comparable Miele/Bosch replacement models are within the same price of $1700'ish at this current time.

More homework to continue...
A short look on repair-parts sites, Bosch parts appear to be readily available and fairly InExpensive from a future maintenance standpoint. Well, the Mieles are just that - can't get parts except from Miele direct, and hot-damm expensive..

http://www.repairclinic.com/Shop-For-Parts/-x73687639707435337563/Shv9pt53uc-Parts?n=2&z=100

137 Parts and Counting for the Bosch Model in the 1st thread.

I just had my 2nd call with TS. Tried to sweet talk them onto goodwilling the part and I pay for labor. They weren't having it.

However, I am always impressed I can speak with a *support rep* over the phone, and the 2 times I've had a Miele tech over at the house to deal with the washing machine, the repair techs have been great !

So I'm somewhat brand married, just due to tech support and repair experience.

Headed over the the Miele Design Center tomorrow to loo at the 8083. I might have to make time for the drywall dust that might be required....it's a 60 foot channel I'm going to have to make to snake it back

FWIW, I bought a KA about two months ago, and couldn't be happier! My dishes are not only spotless clean, they are DRY! What an innovative idea, dry dishes....

re: your repair risk - I've only seen two of those valves fail in my 25 years of designing and owning those dishwashers. One failed on he first day of use and was replaced under warranty.

So, they don't go that often.

All of those Bosch parts come from Bosch too, even if the transaction is handled by XYZ company in your neighborhood. Think that layer of distribution adds to or subtracts to the overall cost of a part to you ?

Are some Bosch parts cheaper than a Miele's ? Yup! Are some more expensive ? Right, again. And unlike a car there just aren't many "wear items" that need replacing over the lifespan that cost of parts should really be taken into consideration when doing a cost of ownership analysis.

I bit the bullet and ordered the 8083.

I had placed both pre-sales / pre-tech calls to both Miele and Bosch over the course of this week. Both Miele sales and support were knowledgable as always. No need to grab a brochure, etc. They know their product inside and out !

Bosch was a contender since SO many people seem to like Bosch these days. Tech support was non existent and speaking to sales, I was just speaking with a rep who pulled up specs like I could over the web to describe the differences and features in the dishwasher to me.

Miele was a clear winner when it comes down to *the human* test.

Check how many parts are available on a 12 year old unit. This is where I've had my problems with Miele.

Parts availability after 12 years is an issue with all manufacturers, not just Miele.

That's true hvtech, but the problem with Miele, and SZ/Wolf as well, is there is only one source for the parts, Them!!!!

So they charge accordingly, and stock accordingly.

I've have been checking on parts for my 8 year old Jenn-air fridge, they are available all over the net, and at a lot more reasonable prices than Miele or SZ/Wolf.

Fortunately my 8 year old Miele Optima DW has been reliable, alto not used much, but I do not look forward to the day it breaks!!!!!!!

Gary

Good point! I definitely like to stick to brands with open parts distribution. But once the part is gone, it's gone, no matter how many places it was available. I think most MFGs try to keep them available for a while, but sometimes there are supply issues. A few years ago, a Japanese factory that made control boards for Whirlpool got hit by the tsunami. The owners of ovens with malfunctioning boards that were only a few years old were left in the dust.

The good news is that, for boards at least, there are plenty of repair services like CoreCentric and FixYourBoard that can rescue you from situations like that (and situations where the replacement board is still available, but ridiculously expensive).

Of course, you could look at it from another perspective. Boards for Miele dishwashers are not sourced from Asia. They are made in the same factory in Germany where the final assembly of the dishwashers is done. In fact, so are all parts of Miele dishwashers except the little rollers for the racks (and even those are made quite near the final assembly site). So although you may run into trouble getting parts after 10 years like all the other brands, incidents like the Whirlpool oven one where parts are gone a year after the model is discontinued won't happen.

OT, but I've got another 2 weeks till the machine comes in. In the meantime, I've gutted the machine from my kitchen, put it on CL for a very cheap price. No bites. I may just trash it...

In the meantime, what parts are interchangable if any.
Baskets, nozzles/wands, triple filter basket. Should I keep any of these as spares ?

Just to point out something that should be obvious but I guess is not, I always hear people say that the old appliances were so much better and "Mom and Dad's *insert appliance here* lasted 30 years...etc", well yes but Mom and Dad most likely had it fixed by the trusty repairman a time or two. Nowadays, we just want to throw it out and buy a new one as opposed to repairing it so if it doesn't last, that is why. I can vividly remember my Mom and Dad having the repairman over to fix our washer, dryer and refrigerator AND the TV. ;)

Chef - I think the baskets will be the only thing really worth saving. The commercial racks are not that flexible. I'm not sure about the filter array without looking at it.

girl - agreed. Chef could have fixed his to, and for a reasonable cost. But, decided to put the money towards a newer, better, faster product. Nothing wrong with either way in my book.

et al - I just checked on availability of parts for a 14 year old coffee system. Lots of parts available form Miele. The one I'm looking at is ridiculously expensive , even for Miele. But, and Gary you'll love this, I can get the sub assembly from non-Miele parts suppliers in New York , London, and Western Europe.

I'll just mention that I have a 33 year old fridge (in the garage now) and 33 year old washer and dryer. They are all working fine and have never, ever had a repair except for the water line to the ice maker freezing up - I no longer use the ice maker in the garage.

When I remodeled my kitchen 12 years ago, all the original kitchen appliances were still working, never having had a repair.

My grandmother's 29-years-old Whirlpool top-freezer refrigerator is still running having had one repair (compressor relay) which was done by me. She died in December, the house is sold and the buyers are using the refrigerator.

My KitchenAid Superba dishwasher bought Jan 1992 has needed no repairs in 22 years thus far. it was stored unused from 2003 to 2007 at which point my sister and brother-in-law took it for use.

I have a KitchenAid (Whirlpool) top-freezer unit bought in Nov 1997 which has been my garage refrigerator since Jan 2005. No repairs.

My Fisher & Paykel DD603 DishDrawer (which have a bad reputation per CR) bought in Aug 2003 has needed no repairs ... until the backlight on the upper drawer's LCD panel went out a month ago, which I haven't yet replaced the part being that the failure of the backlight does not prevent the machine from working (yes, the part is available).

However, my GE Arctica SxS dating to April 2004 has had a failure of the motherboard & freezer evaporator fan, the flapper door solenoid on the ice dispenser (badly rusted), and the water valve. All these repairs were done by me.

For those posting re: parts availability, just for my reference, are these 3rd party parts sites like I have linked in a previous response.

Are are you guys *appliance techs* who have access to wholesale portals that will give you everything based on a *model #*. Just curious...

My parent's old 1976 Whirlpool fridge died at age 11, only to be trucked (like Arkansas Girl's example) off to a repair place to have the compressor and whatever else repaired. The range from the same year still worked but went through various heating elements and bulbs. The good old days 1983 dishwasher had a main/timer switch and knob break when it was 6 or 7 but they figured out how to stick something in the hole and turn whatever was left of the switch and make it work. They have been through 4 microwaves since the early 1980s and have never gotten more than 10 years out of one. TVs quit after about 15 years but with at least one repair along the way. In comparison I feel like the newer things I've bought or ended up with after buying a house have been at least as reliable as theirs.

I am not a tech, and I called Miele direct for the coffee part. At close to $700 , I decided to investigate a bit.

About an hours worth of time yielded alternatives in three different countries. This will not be the norm for MOST Miele parts, but was the case this time.

Incidentally, the decision was made to put the 200- 700 bucks towards a new system rather than a 14 year old model. The option is there to repair the unit though !

I have another comment re: parts distribution / pricing. I'd be real curious to see if a water pump from Bosch is cheaper/ the same/ or higher priced from an independent dist. than it is from Bosch's mother ship.

Dodge -

Oh no u didn't mention Wolf....
I had a 5 year extended on that. I used that warranty up to the fullest. Must have had 7-13 repairs on it. Wolf covered 2 visits once during warranty, and another outside. The extended covered the rest. ALL serviced by the same wolf authorized repair shop...

It's a design flaw and after X visits, I now know how to repair it myself.

Sometimes, I wonder what we really *get* out of having designer appliances and keeping up with the Jones's.

This post was edited by chefwong on Mon, Jun 23, 14 at 17:02

"Does your Bosch clean off a piece of parsley that's been dried onto a dish for a week or so? Or similarly aged food burnt onto a Pyrex 9x13?"

Is it possible your DW's water heater is not heating to the target temp?

"Sometimes, I wonder what we really *get* out of having designer appliances and keeping up with the Jones's."

I really do think that your "Average, run of the mill appliances" are more reliable than the "fancy stuff" we buy and it's certainly less expensive and easier to get parts and service for them.(I base this on comparing "everyday appliances" I've bought for my rentals~~~and I just never get complaints about the appliances from my tenants).

Example~~~~One rental has a "run of the mill" gas range.
It's about 10 years old or so now. It uses spark ignitors to light the burners, I've never had to replace one and I've had cleaning people (that are most likely NOT careful of the ignitors) when cleaning the range in the condo, yet I've never had to replace an ignitor.~~~Now compare this to the posts we see of ignitor problems with the fancy stuff, (Blue Star, Capital~~~etc)
We see the ignitors, ignitor modules fail on those or pinched or disconnected wires (sometimes when brand new)!!!!.

When one thinks of how many more Whirlpools are sold, and even Electroluxes than the really "Esoteric Stuff", (Miele, Gaggenau, Wolf/SZ) and then compare the number of complaints~~~~~well it's like my appliance guy said, They sell so many of the "more common stuff" that even thou the complaints "may seem to be equal to the esoteric stuff", all in all the "Common stuff", is pretty dern reliable.

(I had mentioned to him that "Maytag" seemed to have a lotta complaints about their clothes washers a few years back, & that was his response to me).

My Maytag washer & dryer have been trouble free for 5 years or so, except I had to have the big door seal "bellows" replaced in the washer.

Anyway, I did not buy my Miele Optima to "Keep up with the Jones", I bought it because of that top cutlery rack.

I'm kind of a rebel here, gray is "all the rage here now", and I've expressed my opinion on that and NOT in the most "Politically correct way"~~~~~~now there's a good example of following the Jones's (even thou they are color blind)!!!

Anyway, good luck with your new Miele,

YOU DEFINITELY "Stepped out of the Jones neighborhood and into the Vanderbilt's abode", with that purchase, (LOL)!!!

I hope it serves you well for a long time, and I hope my Optima does not come down with the same disease yours got!!!!

Gary

Paging MarkB -

If you're still reading this thread, what powder are you using in your PG

The only powder I have is Bandit Buddy, and it's Bleh. It also doesn't really come out of the container at times. I suspect it's just the density of the product.

I've looked at the Finish Powder, but it does not have the enzymes in it like it's more popular brother, the Quantum tabs.

There does not seem to be a *go to recommended* powder amongst us dishwasher enthusiasts - as tabs seem to be the norm.

There isn't a go-to powder because it's inferior to the tab formulations, for the most part.

Method tabs are soft & crumbly. Can't imagine there would be a problem with dissolving, especially if cut (which they do easily).

Cascade or Cascade Complete have served me well in all of my miele DWs for close to 20 years now. Works fine a the couple of bosch units too.

rococogurl -

Just to clarify on the other post. Density of the powder can have some play...on how well it dispenses from the dispenser . Bandit Buddy is much less coarser than let's say Casade. It has occured on more than 1 occasion (with the dispenser container dry to begin with), I find that the door has opened but the detergent has not dispensed/fallen out of the container.

I suspect it's just how it gets wet and how it congugulates in the dispenser. My theory may be wrong, but this has happened on more than 1 occasion. If I use a old box of Cascade , I never have these issues under the same machine/dispenser drawer..

chefwong,

I'm still reading. I'm using Oxiclean dishwasher powder. Saw a commercial for it on TV and bought some. It works extremely well in the Miele Pro. Plenty of enzymes to remove grime and of course oxygen bleach to remove stains. It works better than any powder I've used including those with phosphates and it leaves no film or powdery residue behind.

Good to know about the Somat powder fading. I was using it only on the most soiled loads for economy. I'll continue to be judicious, especially with my third of a grain or so water hardness in our naturally soft water. Nothing, for me, works as well on pots and pans. I've also tried OxiClean powder, it works quite well. The best of the domestic ones. I still get some baked on stuff left on the dirtiest pans with that one in the La Perla II though.
I miss the convenience of the tabs, was a regular Quantum user when I had a Bosch, but they just don't work well for me anymore.