all good choices.

most will tell you the DW may as well be Miele too, for several reasons.

yes the microwave can be in the the appliance pantry. Any microwave. Or, to be more demanding, get something fancier (there are many recent discussion threads about this). Some have steam too. Some are convection. ETc. Ikea has built-ins for $600, with drop down doors. There is one microwave with a door that can be opened from either side.

one exception to your choices: the propane gas thingie. Yukk.
Go induction.
Or, as a wishy washy compromise, get both induction and gas.

you say "to save a few thousand" about the Miele fridge. Are you in Canada? Miele is overpriced in Canada.

You can save money on the fridge by buying a Thermador version. Miele built-in's are produced in the same mfg plant in Turkey. They do offer nicer lighting, more sophisticated electronic controls, and slightly wider shelving (because the lights are built in to the side walls). But the components are the same otherwise and the fully integrated appearance will be the same as the Miele. Another alternative is the French-door fully-integrated Liebherr with BioFresh.

Here is a link that might be useful: Liebherr HCB2062

Thank you both for the advice!

I am not in Canada, actually in Massachusetts, but everywhere I look, the Miele integrated fridge is about $7500. I am definitely going to look at the Thermador and Leibherr too. The Miele really was impressive, but it seems like its almost $2000 more than other nice fridges, and I am just not sure if its worth it.

Regarding the propane, unfortunately, its my only option. I don't have natural gas but have a propane tank already installed in the house so I could easily run a line to the range. I have never cooked with anything but gas and have heard there are limitations with induction, specifically with the pots and pans you can use and the amount of space that is taken up below the cooktop. Why do you think that induction is that much better than propane gas?

Thanks again for the help!

of the last thousand comments posted here about induction, every one is positive or glowing.

people who have installed both induction and a little gas burner say they end up Not using the gas for much at all.

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the 3 possible problems one may have read about here are minimal.
They Appear Large because they occupy screen space and they get talked about.

some manufacturers have written that one needs to allow air to move underneath the induction cooktop, which is normal; some manufacturers have written it as a space not to install anything else into... not a big deal at all, and it's becoming a smaller and smaller problem each year as more and more manufacturers write it out as a smaller and smaller requirement, and as more and more people just go ahead and install a drawer there anyway. I have a shallow drawer underneath, filled with magnetic steel, and nothing gets warmed up even though the distance is a couple of inches. After all, the strong heat producing magnetic field is about a 1/4" from the top, and not inches from the bottom.

pots and pans that are not magnetic steel are easy to replace; it's a small cost and not an obstacle.

the last possible objection is one I raised a couple years ago and it has taken on a life of its own, unkillable. Here it is: the minor noises one may hear. Depending on the pot, or not. Depending on the cycling when on low. Etc. But, some pots can hum or buzz. Not a deal killer.

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Many people who have installed both induction and a little gas burner say they end up Not using the gas for much at all.

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It is true that most German / European fridges are made in Turkey. Good fridges can be gotten from Blomberg, from Liebherr, or from the Bosch / Thermador companies.

One follow up question... would you say the same if I had access to natural gas instead of propane. Is it the propane that you think I should stay away from, or do you just think induction is better than gas in general?

Propane is sometimes more difficult to install.

Sometimes there are conversion issues. Sometimes there is a regulator on the line that is not necessary.

I would say that induction is flat out superior to sealed burner rangetops you are looking at but not the open burner gas rangetops; Capital Culinarina and Bluestar RNB.

In theory, induction can get hot enough to melt iron pans but in practice product liability lawyers limit heat to about 550 degrees. You can get to 600 degress with a Capital Culinarian. Lots of fans here for both Culiniarian and Bluestar RNB. My ranking would put Culinarian's 23k btu burners ahead of Bluestar's 22k burners. But BS has fanatics.

The standard coversion of btu to induction watts you find over the net where 1kw = 7143 btus is for sealed burners. Open burners put more of the btus into heat directed at the pan. Putting direct numbers is going to put this thread on a tangent I don't care to take but the most powerfull induction burners are about as powerfull as the most powerfull gas open burners.

Then there is roasting of peppers and marshmellows over an open flame.

The history of consumer electronics is not that they get more and more reliable. Fixing a gas rangetop 25 years from now will probably be a relatively simple affair. Finding the parts to fix a current induction cooktop probably less so.

I have cooked on induction and hate it. And I am not the only one. I "like" cooking over fire. Induction feels "inorganic" and "plasticy". Some complain of buzzing noised created by induction.

Yes, get the Miele DW.

I've used gas all my life, but I would have done induction last year if I had had enough electric available to do so.

It's as easy to clean as a countertop, faster to boil, more energy efficient, just as responsive, doesn't heat up the room as fast, and can be used as a workspace.

The only drawbacks are that it can't be used during a power outage, some of your cookware may not work on it, and it's usually more expensive to purchase. Oh, and maybe not safe if you have a pacemaker.

The difference between the performance of propane and NG range tops from a top shelf manufacturer is negligible at best. Other than the size of the orifices and the setting of the gas regulator (both of which are done by the manufacturer), they are identical units. If you're going to use a gas range top, propane works great.

Propane is NOT more difficult to install. If you yourself are trying to convert an NG unit to propane then I would question your skill level. But to buy a propane range top directly from the manufacturer (and all top manufacturers will offer their units either way), go for it.

We have a propane range top as the focal point of our kitchen. We also have an induction hob. We like them both. But the induction definitely gets the greater share of the work. And you will not find too may induction owners that regret having induction.

I would also recommend you look at the Sub Zero B series integrated fridge. We have one and love it. It also has the condenser at the top rather than on the bottom which can be a consideration if you have shedding dogs or cats nearby.

If there's any place I would recommend saving money is with the fridge drawers in the island. For the added room you get, they're expensive. Consider if it's feasible a second fridge in an adjacent room or in the garage.

Geo posted what I was going to say. Why not look at SubZero for the refrigerator as well? And ditto on the propane.

A friend of mine installed a Wolf rangetop on propane and loves it. The Capital and BStar are others that bear a look, depending depends on how much power you want/need on the rangetop, how you feel about cleaning and what you want to invest in a hood. My friends also do a great deal of Italian cooking and have a 2-hob induction, which makes a lot of sense to me.

As for cooking on an open fire, there are indoor grills and cook-in fireplaces. Some of us don't have access to gas although it would be my first choice.

Our DD and SIL had the SZ fridge and separate freezer and the wine fridge with 2 drawers below. It's a lot of refrigeration but I found those 2 drawers to be very useful and, depending on placement and usage, they can relieve a lot of congestion at the fridge.

I was trying to be careful and not overdo with our reno and find myself, seven years later, taking another look and thinking I might have been too conservative. Then again, it was a weekend house at the time.

There's lots of pros/cons on induction here. I have it and love it. My DH wasn't so sure we should get it but he loves it now and tells everyone about it.

Pros for me are easy cleanup (no more messy looking grates!) and safety. Those will children or the elderly in their house should particularly care about safety. I've burned my share of potholders and gotten too close with plastic things while the stove was still too hot.

I love my builtin Miele with the panels. Look carefully at the outside. Not all of the built-ins are fully integrated, so pay attention if that matters to you. The inside is just lovely. The price was about the same as the subzero, but the SZ has big door gallon size milk holders. We don't drink milk in that format so that would have robbed value shelf depth. The Miele has metal freezer baskets which seemed a lot sturdier to me than the competitors (Therm, Lieb, and SZ were what we looked at).

You might be able to find a good price on a Miele DW since new models come out soon.

Also, ask them about promotions. I got a set of really nice cookware and a Miele S7 vacuum free. And since they don't discount, if you are buying from one place, ask them to throw in the kitchen sink and disposal too (I got $700 Franke and a top of the line ISE) :)

Propane is NOT more difficult to install. If you yourself are trying to convert an NG unit to propane then I would question your skill level.

Propane does not require any special skills but sometimes there are more issues. That is why we sometimes here that performance of an lp range is not the same as the equivalent natural gas.

Complaints on this and similar boards is not infrequent therefore I would call that a more difficult install.

@op

There have been some recent complaints on Miele ovens.

You may want to took at Wolf or Gaggenau ovens.

This is the first post from a Gardenweb thread titled

What Kind Or Range/Cooktop/Oven Is Safest For Little Children?

johnliu wrote,

"I have toddlers, so I need a high wall oven".
"Because of my babies, I won't consider a gas range".

"I'm getting induction because I care about my childrens' safety."

Does any of this sound familiar? I see these sentiments occasionally here on KF. They are expressed by younger parents who have very young children, or are planning to start families.

Oddly enough, I seldom (actually, can't specifically recall ever) hear these concerns from older parents who have actually raised children.

Humans learn from experience, so you'd expect the loudest warnings against ranges and gas burners to come from those with . . . experience. Why don't we?

I decided to go looking for data. Here is an interesting article, "Kitchen Scalds and Thermal Burns in Children Five Years and Younger", that was published in Pediatrics, Jan 2005.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/115/1/10

The scientists examined the records of all kitchen thermal burns that resulted in a child's visit to a statistical sample of 100 emergency departments nationwide, over a period of five years, 1997-2002. They looked at all cooking-related thermal injuries, excluding accidents where a child pulled on an electrical appliance's cord and was injured by the toaster, coffee maker, etc and/or its contents.

The main findings were:
- Scalds from hot liquid were the main cause of burns serious enough for an ER room visit (was 2/3rd of the cases), and are the dominant cause of hospitalizations.
- Burns from touching hot pots or other surfaces were less common (was 1/3rd of the cases), and seldom resulted in hospitalization. Most burns were from touching a hot pot.
- There were 7 total injury patterns: (1) reached up and pulled down pot from stove or other elevated surface; (2) grabbed, overturned, or spilled pot onto self; (3) collided with pot or with person holding pot; (4) put hands into pot; (5) pot contents splashed onto child; (6) other; and (7) unknown. (1) (2) and (5) were the most common, accounting for about 50% of all the injuries. (6) and (7) were less than 10%.
- Boys were more likely to climb up on counters and spill pots on themselves. Girls were more likely to have hot liquids splashed on them.

Note what was not a significant pattern of injury requiring a hospital visit: chidren touching a hot oven door, chidren holding their hands in a gas flame, children turning on a gas burner and blowing themselves up. I can't say these accidents never happen, but if they do, it is so rare as to not show up in the data.

Here's my take on this. Your concern for the safety of your children, both born and unborn, should have essentially nothing to do with what kind of range, cooktop, or wall oven you choose. Whether the pot is on a gas flame or an induction hob really makes no difference to your child's risk of being scalded or burned, whether the knobs are on the front or the top makes no difference, and whether the pan is in a range oven or a wall oven also makes no difference. It isn't the appliance! that is the threat to your child. They all do the same thing: get pots and pans, and their contents, very hot. The threat is the pots and pans and the food in them.

Take care to keep pots on the back burners, handles turned in. Have landing space to set hot pots away from counter edges. Design your kitchen so you don't have to criss-cross the room carrying pots of hot liquid (unlike a couple of kitchens recently discussed here). Supervise your children and watch where you're walking. That is what is important, not your appliance selection.

From a father whose two kids have reached 11 y/o and 14 y/o without any kitchen accidents, despite having grown up in some awfully dodgy kitchens!

Here is a link that might be useful: What Kind Or Range/Cooktop/Oven Is Safest For Little Children?

Hey, dee..

I also have 11 and 14 y.o.! They are still alive and I've never done anything yet to injure them.

However.. adults screw up a lot!

I have:

1. Went to my coworkers house to water her plants while she was on a month long vacation. I went after 5 days. Her gas burner was on when I arrived. It had been burning for 5 days non stop. Her 70+ year old mother thought about making tea before they left to drive back to the east coast and "forgot".

2. Got phoned by the owner of a house a group of us had rented for 2 week over xmas break. When she went in, she found the gas burner running on low. One of the 8 of use there (4 adults and 4 pre-teens) had left it on.

3. Burned numerous potholders / wooden utensils by leaving them too close.

4. Burned plastic while unwrapping packaged meat and had it nearly permanent cemented to my pan.

5. Had a nanny who came in with a paper bag of groceries and set it on the counter too close to my pot of chili on the stove. We both noticed the smell before the paper burst into flames.

On the induction, a paper towel can even be placed between the pan and the cooktop and not ignite.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I can't supervise 100% while I make them prepare all of their summer time lunches and breakfasts ( I work at home full time).