Holy Toledo! My cost on those two in the Thermador was about $3500 less for stainless doors (lesss for panel ready). Since we wound up deciding not to get the ice in the door, it was even less than that. And there's not a thing wrong with them. Some folks seem to have more trouble with installation -- especially if you have guys who are used to pluggin in boxes and sliding them in. I don't think any of it is that hard, and I bet most repairmen, who are used to taking apart and putting together, wouldn't be phased.

I think you do run a risk of not getting them for a while too. The Thermador were supposed to be out July 4th '06. Mine were apparently the first installed in the Houston area and among the first I've heard of anywhere, and we were looking at Dec 06 or January 07. Part of the reason we didn't get the ice dispenser is that they were not yet released, Thermador loaned the plain freezer and offered to sub it out when the right one was available. We said okay, and then decided we didn't miss the ice that much and preferred the look and cleaning without it.

I suspect this guy has his interests ahead of yours. Get the Thermador, know they are available, the specs are confirmed, the product has been installed and used for a while and you can pocket the change. You'll love it -- and I'll give you a money-back guarantee on that. In fact, I'll refund DOUBLE what you paid for this opinion! ;-) Seriously -- I'm very happy with mine.

Indeed. Even our Miele distributor was quick to tell us they were the same as Bosch and sisters and that there was no reason for us to wait....

Clinresga,

If you wish to see what Miele has done to differentiate their model, among the others using the same cabinet and majority of parts, here is Miele's press release: Independence Series

The largest differentiator is Miele's RemoteVision which can help troubleshoot components, and monitor the system. As far as the WiFi alarm component you will find that most higher-end residential security providers can connect critical temperature components into the their service.

THIS is why I love GW Appliances Forum!

antss, lascatx, amirm, Farenheit 451--TRULY appreciate your rapid input. We made the decision to switch from a SZ 736 to the Therm 18/30'' columns. The email I got from this appliance dealer spiked my anxiety, even though I thought I'd heard the Mieles were just rebadged.

Your input has finalized my decision as to what to get (the Thermadors) and which dealer to use (a different one!!).

Again, thanks!

My appliance dealer told me today that Miele has designed the TLC Installation System, so that the Mieles are supposed to be much easier to install than the Thermadors. Also,the Mieles come with the doors/hinges (?) on, which apparently the Thermadors do not. As of now, the Mieles do not offer all the sizes the Thermadors do (for example, the only 24" option is for wine storage). As Farenheit 451 noted, the Miele has the Remote Vision system that connects the refrigerator/freezer remotely to a Miele service center. I was quoted the same prices as you, Clinresga, and I am not persuaded that an easier install and the Remote Vision system is worth the extra $.

The wheels come on one of others too, do not quote me, but I think it's Gaggenau. They are basically only a two time use: once to install, and the other to haul away so a good installer should be able to get around the inconvenience using a few learned tricks. I am big fan of Miele, and we are looking to redo our kitchen, but the Liebherr, as others have mentioned here, is sure catching my eye, and holding my attention.

fahrenheit (or any Liebherr lovers): This is something that has been confusing me all along--help me on this.

Explain to me why Liebherr's appear to have such small capacities for their size. The SBS 20's (the 48'' integrated) are listed with 14.2 and 4.3 cu. ft. capacities for fridge/freezer. That's versus 17.0/8.5 for the Thermador 30''/18'' combo columns--or 18.9/9.8 for the SZ 636!

I know people love the Liebherrs, and there must be some reason: 1) the capacity is not as limited as it seems and/or 2) there are some other advantages to make up for the lost space??

Would love some insight. Thanks.

Liebherr was on our list until we saw the Bosch/Therm/Gagg. What we like on the latter is the real drawer slide and the fact that we didn't think we coud utilize the drawers in the freezer as nicely as the columns. And of course, the sure flush fit of columns is pretty slick.

The other thing that didn't impact functionality per-se was the plastic lips which old the shelves in Liebherr. They are in a completely different class than the heavy metal standards in the other.

As to capacity specs, we don't even look at them. Consumer Reports tests them and they vary a ton from what is spec'ed. So I would instead imagine how you use the units and make sure they fit your style. For example, if you want to stuff a forzen 20 pound Turkey, think about how you can get it into drawers vs shelves. Ditto for Pizza boxes and such.

Not sure what the wheel thing is about. The Thermador have wheels under them and you can roll then in or out as often as needed. Good thing -- my cabinet installer put a screw through the wire leading to the outlet for the freezer and that puppy had to be rolled back and forth a few times to get that all resolved. I can't imagine having what is essentially a single use set of wheels.

I went to look at the Leibherr as a possibility for our utility room. I don't know enough about them to know if there were other models I should have looked at, but this was all that was on the floor at the only place in town to carry them. I was not impressed with the plastic lips to hold the shelves or the general construction either. Quite frankly, the one I saw looked more like a larger version of my old drom fridge. DH and I both agreed that the price difference wasn't that great and we'd rather go with a Thermador or Bosch if we decide to do a built-in to get the 24" depth or give up a couple of inches and get a counter depth.

So far my only experience with Liebherr has been what I see and read on the net. After seeing that they are the manufacturer of some highly regarded heavy construction equipment (I should have naturally connected the dots as I am familiar with their equipment), and therefor they know a thing or two about engineering (where's Antss when you need him) I am definitely going to take an up-close hands on look at their refrigerators.

fahrenheit, hope you report back your impressions.

amirm: agree that cubic feet alone don't correlate well with usable space, but the difference is SO great with the Liebherrs (i.e. 18.5 cf total, versus 28.7 for the SZ, a 55% advantage) that I'm just curious as to why. It's not a criticism, as I haven't looked at them and I know Liebherr owners are extremely enthusiastic. I just want to understand better where the difference comes from.

The Miele frig. is completely different than the Thermador piece. The only features they share are the sealed system, hinge and the frame. The Miele units have halogen lighting, drop and lock door bins, sealed shelving, waist high controls (with the Master Cool technology), internal wireless diagnostic features and the easiest installation of doors panels (not like the Thermador). Those that are comparing the 2 clearly have not seen the Miele piece.
I invite your input.

Those of you that have purchased a Thermadore refrigerator.
Do you sitll like it. How much did you spend on the install? Are your door panels straight?? Does the frig. constantly beep until you adjust the doors? I'll be I struck a few cords with some people. Should have bought the Miele and you'll see why they are different.

jason - honestly most around here didn't have the option of getting the Miele because it was not available until a few weeks ago! AFAIK the stainless steel door versions are still not shipping.

What's so different about how the custom door panels install on the Miele vs. the Gaggenau or T'dor?? Some will like the lower controls,just as many will hate them because they eat up storage inches. Ditto w/ halogen versus incandecent vs. flouro lites. "Master Cool" wow what a big word. Telling folks that it has diagonstic capability and a menu driven selection system for various food types will do a lot more winning over customers than touting some techno marketing speak that nobody outside the family has any idea of its meaning.

AND - let's not forget that Miele had to go to their competitor (BSH) to get this thing produced. Sure , it's gussied up in a nicer suit and has a few more accessories than its cousins but this is still at it core a Caddy vs. Buick or Lexus vs. Toyota arguement. Yes there are mechanincal differences and trim quality variations, and marketing level diffs, but at the heart they are very much alike. Some will tell you they prefer the shiny Gaggenau suit to the staid and techy Miele one. To each his own.

I'm starting to get the wiff of a shill.

Go look at the laundry forum and you'll see Jason just joined today and has posted about nothing other that to tout Meile and trash competitors. I wouldn't put too much stock in his posts.

Yes, I've had my Thermadors as long as just about anyone, and, yes, I still love them. I love the design, the function and have never jad a mooment's regret in buying them. We love them so much we were considering another one in our laundry room (built-in would give us room in front, which we need, but the washer died and things have taken another direction). The waist high controls on the Miele sound stupid to me. If you are right that they eat up space, then I certainly wouldn't want them. And I wouldn't pay that price for them.

You think Meile is feeling a pinch for expanding it's most expensive appliance line just as belts are tightening?

Leave it to GW vets like antss and lascatx to smell this one out. In a recent thread someone observed that "same day posters" often turned out to be "spammers" shilling a product for their own gain. If this "Jason" has been posting left and right in laundry and appliance forums exclusively to tout Mieles, beginning today, it sure smells funny!

If you're still lurking, Jason:
your user name suggests you sell or otherwise work with appliances. Do you have a personal stake in touting Mieles?

And, since you took the time to dredge up my thread, which dated back to MAY 5th (!!), perhaps you would have realized that back then the Mieles were NOT AVAILABLE to see!! You're criticizing us cuz we "clearly have not seen the Miele piece"--well DUH!

If you took the time to search you'd see that the Therm columns get as consistently positive feedback from owners as any fridge out there.

Jason, you'd better get back here and defend yourself or we'll all label you as the troll you appear to be.

My understanding of the Miele and comparable BSH/Thermador units is that they are manufactured by a third party manufactuer(out of Turkey). This manufacture is not owned(perhaps they have fractional ownership) by either Miele or Bosch. My understanding is that while the machines have similar dimensions, and some shared parts, the machines are in fact engineered and built to completely different specifications. I have seen both machines and in my opinion the Miele has many more features and appears to be a better built machine. Whether the Miele is worth the extra price delta only time will tell. I think Jason actually does do a good job describing many of the differences. I want to make it clear that in no way am I disparaging the BSH/Therm/Gagg product. Also, I agree with those of you that point out Miele's obvious problems with getting product to market in a timely fashion...

mschuma - what makes you think a third party is manufacturing the refrigerators for everyone in Turkey? last time I checked the only corners on the markjet that Turkey had were in bazars and coffee/cigarettes. Most people don't even prefer the later over western counterparts. Manufacturing is certainly not one of their areas of expertise in the global marketplace. If these firms were simply looking for a low cost producer, then the Asian factories offer a much better alternative.

Pretty good description???? What's master cool? Why is it easier to install a Miele door? (if in fact it is) How is drop and lock better than the BSH offerings? What does Bosch even call theirs? How about Gaggenau's more durable stainless interior? What if I don't have Wi-Fi at my place, some of those gee wiz features are then useless. What about the spiffy motorized shelf in the BSH stuff, that's certainly better than a manual one (yea, right)

SO......................let's recap. They've got the same frame, same engine, and the same hardware. They do have different radios, lights and paint and one has krome rims, but they are TOTALLY different dude.

PSA - I really hate it when a sales weasle comes around and yaks about how great his widget is, how poorly everyone else's is and then slinks off when questioned. Remember, I myslef have been called a shill for Miele around here, most notably by a troll for a new oven company which is all but toast now. I am an ardent Miele proponent, they have some fine products and some of the best service in the manufacturing world, but to think they have the cats meow with every product is ludacris. This is not the forum for guerrilla marketing.

ants,

Perhaps you should ask someone from Miele or BSH/Siemans group why these units are being manufactured in Turkey? I am just reporting what the manufactures have told me. Perhaps this would explain why these machines are so expensive. I tend to agree with you that it makes no sense why these are being manufactured in Turkey given the high price of the euro/lack of manufacturing capacity...FYI..many european auto manufacturers are starting to set up shop in Turkey...

As for different features, ultimately the customer will decide whether the feature/benefits are worth the extra cost. If I am a customer and I have unlimited funds then I would buy the Miele, Gaggenau, or Sub Zero. If you are working within a budget then certainly the BSH/Thermador units are a great choice.

mschuma:
as long as we're picking nits, why do you distinguish the Gaggs from the other BSH's? The Gagg columns are virtual clones of the Therms except for the SS interior. And why would you consider the Therms a "budget" item when they are within a few hundred bucks of the Gaggs and virtually identical in price to a similar sized SZ (i.e. comparing Therm 18'' plus 30'' columns vs the SZ 636).

The Turkey connection is correct. Bosch I think set it up and Miele is sharing the capacity with Bosch. The electronics for Miele are manufactured in Germany as I understand. I'm sure the base frame and compressor system is the same/similar.

MS - I don't need to ask, I already know the answer.

My inference was why would it be a third party when Bosch is one of the worlds largest manufacturers? The factory is theirs and Miele went to them to for manufacturing. It stands to reason their models would be more $$$ than the the competetiors who own the factory. You don't think the bean counters are charging Miele the same price for a ref. as they do their internal business units..........do you? Miele used to /still uses Liebherr to manufacture ref. unit for the Euro market. FYI - they also outsource their coffee machines.

If there is a "budget" model it would be the Bosch label, though I don't see how 4 grand for a ref. is very budget minded. That's how BSH pegs the marques Bosch, Thermador, Gaggenau - good, better, best.

Setting up shop in Turkey makes sense if you are looking for cheaper production close to home. Turkey's workforce is not as highly paid as the socialized workforce of Germany/France/Italy which has huge cost burdens. The Euro conglomerates are not quite as willing to move en masse to the Asian countries for cheap labor as the Americans are, and the Euro is still favorable againts the Tutkish Lira.

Prompted by the latest posts here, we paid a visit to our local distributor who in the past, has been super helpful and nice to deal with. They did not have the new columns yet. But did show me some of the capabilities in their freezer bottom unit. Note that I am just passing on what we were told :).

The Mastercool controls look both cool and not so cool :). On the positive front, you get to set the temp and humidity of each bit electronically. I seem to recall on the Bosch, etc it is those plastic sliders. Those sliders donÂt seem all the functional to me as they are easy to bang into/change. On the down side, she had to touch the controls multiple times to get the system to detect. A real switch to control them would have been better than a touch control that is fussy.

The main thing my wife liked, and someone should verify that Bosch series donÂt do, is that you there is a bucket where the ice falls into that can be slid left and right. In doing so, you can then use the entire larger slider under it to fill with ice for parties and such.

On doors being easier to mount, she said that once the panels are mounted to the door grid, they are hung and then can be adjusted in that way using some mechanism on the door. She said the time to do this is 75 minutes (!). With the other units, she said the panel needs to be taken on and off to adjust the panels and that is what takes a lot of time.

The door panels had heavy stainless rails into which the glass buckets hung. You could push the glass bucket up and remove them without removing the slides which hold not. Seemed nice to have them be this way.

On wifi connection, in our case, it is a useful thing in that it can detect unit failure or door being left open. We will be having the unit in our vacation house and hate to come to it after a month of being gone, just to find everything gone bad due to unit failure. Not a huge deal mind you, but useful. I asked if there is a charge and she said "not currently." Not sure what that means as far as them charging in the future.

I asked her the cost and she gave me an MSRP of $12,000 for dual 30 inch units. I seem to recall that the Gagg was less than $10K so this is quite a premium for the few features.

Availability apparently is pretty poor for the freezer. She said someone just ordered a set and the freezer is scheduled for October! Yikes.

Overall, it seems that they have done some homework on refining everything around the core of the unit. I donÂt feel that they have created enough value to go beyond the Gagg unit. But for people where price is no object, I think they should seriously consider Miele. We are not quite in that category although close when it comes to our kitchen remodel :).

Clingeresa,

I don't have Thermador Freedom but I have a Thermador 42" side by side. It is simply great in performance and looks. I don't know anything about Miele refrigerator, must be a new model.
Here is the picture of our Thermador:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27775932@N08

Here is a link that might be useful: My Kitchen