OOPS, here is the link of the initial thread

Hey, Berryberry, it's good to hear the full story. I suspect if folks had all the facts you presented here they may have responded somewhat differently. Glad it all worked out.

I'm glad things worked out too. I was one that said it would be stupid to give the competitor's name out when shopping a quote. (And I stand by that)... why put the hurt on someone who appears (at the time) to have gone out of their way to honor a closeout quote for a new product? Why cause yourself all that trouble that your went through... (isn't that proof of doing something stupid?) Anyway, I do stupid stuff all the time,(like bringing this up again), and as I said in my post- "live and learn".

If there's a lesson(s) here I think it's... 1. sometimes when things fall apart another opportunity presents itself.

and 2. when shopping prices, it's fine to mention the best price you've found, but be cautious of giving out the name if there's a chance it can be sabotaged. Give the competitor's name out if they promise to match it and need to confirm- (and you like them.)

3. Maybe this was a great way to shop after all: All's well that ends well.

Glad to hear everything worked out. I never posted to the original thread, but I did follow along intently. I have to say, I never doubted your side of the story. It all made sense. I would have done the same. I too have given out vendor names to competitors in the past, but in those situations I never though it would hurt and it hasn't. But, thanks to your post, I'm wiser for it. I will never again be giving out names behind price quotes again. If they can't match the $$$, then that's all that matters. Good luck.

Another here who never doubted your side of the story or thought you did anything wrong.

"Hi Mr. Salesman, can you lower your price significantly? Someone else offered me a way better price."

"Who?"

"I'm not telling."

"Then get lost!"

That's the way I see that conversation going, but I've been wrong before.

...
That's the way I see that conversation going, but I've been wrong before.

That is the way I see that dialog going, too, punctuated by self getting tossed out of the establishment by the seat of my pants.

Perhaps alexr has a more persuasive and winning style with inventive vagueness.

I'm very glad things finally sorted themselves out for you berryberry. Gratuitous hoop jumping and paranoid skulking and lurking is frightfully annoying for the basically honest customer who just wants a purchase without a soap opera accompanying it. Enjoy the bluestar!

Sure, this is how I would handle it. First, I'd ask if they could match or beat the price. Sometimes they'll say "No Way", and and demand to know where that price came from. I'd say "Sorry" unless you're willing to match or beat that price, it's unnecessary information.

Sometimes they'll say, "Well that's a really low price, but we'll match or beat it if we can confirm the price". Under those circumstances, I'd of course show them the quote or give the other competitor's name (they may want to call them to prove I wasn't making things up). This may or may not get the competitor in hot water, but in any case, the new merchant has agreed to match it and deserves to know that it's legitimate.

This is how I'd 'shop' if I was buying a car, or any 'major' dollar item that this sort of 'game' is being played, either on my part or the sellers.

I recently helped a neighbor buy a new range, and I did not, and would not try to bargain between two or more sellers... But if there's a known, major difference price, or if like berryberry you're spending a lot of money on several items, it's sometimes necessary to - I would never suggest that one should just assume it's one price and one price only. "It never hurts to ask" (politely).

Also some sellers like that you're an informed shopper, it gives them a chance to mention other things that are important- other than just the price. And I certainly believe in supporting the local economy. But I won't give that lecture now.

Thanks all - I appreciate your comments.

Alexr - while you did say it was stupid to give out a competitors name on the origignal thread, you also apolgized for how you initially framed it and tried to explain what you meant - so I had no issues with your comments (although like the others here, I do disagree with you and think that if a vendor is going to match a price, they need to know the vendor with the price so they can verify it. Perhaps you would be more nuanced in your approach but I guess I believe in the direct approach and feel that the dealer I am making the request of will act honorably if they can't meet the price rather than complaining about the other vendor like a spoiled child).

My displeasure with some of those folks on the initial thread was more directed at people like guadalupe, laat2, etc with some of their misguided, incorrect and uncalled for comments.

Sorry for the tangent, but regarding negotiating a price for a car...that would be my exception. I have and will always freely throw out the name of another car dealer, even one I've never visited or even contacted. As long as my bluff is reasonable, they'll never check. And if they do, so what? I move on to the next dealer. That industry works a little differently regarding "price fixing". Car shopping is a dog-eat-dog world. Right or wrong, that industry is notorious for its reputation. Sorry if I've offended anyone, but that's just MHO. Now back to appliance talk.

Sadly, this is what UMRP reduces retailers to, ratting out other dealers that violate the terms. With other places that match prices, you do need to show proof of the lower price. Some places will even match internet prices which include shipping charges if you bring in a valid quote. But since UMRP dealers can't match lower prices, showing them a lower quote only gives them incentive to turn in the other dealer.

How much $$$ did you ACTUALLY save at the end of the day? How many hours of time tdo you think you spen earning the discount?

You're missing the point, antss. He wouldn't have had to spend any extra hours if that SOB dealer hadn't raised a stink. IMO berryberry had no choice but to seek out a new dealer - why give business to someone who just screwed you? We all know that for some reason you hate people shopping for a good price (I wish I had something to sell you, LOL!) but you gotta at least give him that much, no?

Berryberry, I am glad to finally hear the whole story. I admit, I was always on your side in this, but some things were a bit confusing, especially when the online dealer was also posting some unclear information about your deal.
I am one of those people that also seeks out deals and I don't understand the stink about this. If you are willing to put in your time researching products and finding deals, why shouldn't you be rewarded with a lower price? Now, if your time is too valuable, like antss is speculating, then, by all means, go ahead and buy it for the price offered at the closest local dealer shop.

Glad to hear your whole ordeal is now over and you can relax and enjoy your new range!

thanks olchik and fenworth.

antss, as fenworth noted you are missing the point - i wouldn't have had to spend any extra time if the idiots at Hillmon appliance hadn't raised issues.

That said, the small amount of extra time I spent was very worthwhile in terms of the final results

So I assume that the dealer where you actually purchased was Don's Appliances? I have always been happy with them too, and their prices are always better than Hillmon. I also have never had a salesperson at Hillmon who I felt wasn't condescending in my three visits there.

i agree with ants...Berryberry is your time worth anything? grow up and move on...you speak with such anger..just like you have the right to shop, the dealer has the right to do what they feel is fair...if indoor online appliance is giving appliances away below cost then they may be helping customers, but they are hurting local appliance dealers. Operating a showroom where customers can touch, see, and feel a stove costs money....it is unfair for online dealers to setup a cheap website and whore out appliances..appliance margins run 15-20%(just enough for mom and pop dealers to stay in biz)...if you had followed your step 7 from the get go(shopped locally) then I am sure the hillmons would have offered you a fair price and great service.....

mschuma - you sound like a lazy, disgruntled appliance dealer like the Hillmon's of the world. Oh wait, you are such a beast. Tell me - do you also make it a practice to screw your customers like this who come to you for a price quote and present a lower price they have from elsewhere?

And lets look at your post to me. What anger do you refer to? I simply stated the facts above. No real anger from me (except at those few folks who chose to criticize me unjustly on the original thread). Now you on the other hand seem to have the anger issue. I quote "....it is unfair for online dealers to setup a cheap website and whore out appliances..appliance margins run 15-20% just enough for mom and pop dealers to stay in biz". Are you afraid of competition mschuma? Afraid of competing with other local dealers or dealers with an online presence who perhaps can provide the customer a better price and overall experience? If not, why the anger in your post at online stores?

As to your conclusion "if you had followed your step 7 from the get go(shopped locally) then I am sure the hillmons would have offered you a fair price and great service....." you have got to be kidding me. They would have screwed me just as much as they tried to do because they thought they were the only game in town.

You don't want to share where your appliance store is mschuma, do you? That way, I and others can be sure to avoid it as well. Because its clear you have an anti-competition, anti-customer attitude

mschuma - you sound like a lazy, disgruntled appliance dealer like the Hillmon's of the world. Oh wait, you are such a beast. Tell me - do you also make it a practice to screw your customers like this who come to you for a price quote and present a lower price they have from elsewhere?

And lets look at your post to me. What anger do you refer to? I simply stated the facts above. No real anger from me (except at those few folks who chose to criticize me unjustly on the original thread). Now you on the other hand seem to have the anger issue. I quote "....it is unfair for online dealers to setup a cheap website and whore out appliances..appliance margins run 15-20% just enough for mom and pop dealers to stay in biz". Are you afraid of competition mschuma? Afraid of competing with other local dealers or dealers with an online presence who perhaps can provide the customer a better price and overall experience? If not, why the anger in your post at online stores?

As to your conclusion "if you had followed your step 7 from the get go(shopped locally) then I am sure the hillmons would have offered you a fair price and great service....." you have got to be kidding me. They would have screwed me just as much as they tried to do because they thought they were the only game in town.

You don't want to share where your appliance store is mschuma, do you? That way, I and others can be sure to avoid it as well. Because its clear you have an anti-competition, anti-customer attitude

"i agree with ants...Berryberry is your time worth anything? grow up and move on...you speak with such anger..just like you have the right to shop, the dealer has the right to do what they feel is fair...if indoor online appliance is giving appliances away below cost then they may be helping customers, but they are hurting local appliance dealers. Operating a showroom where customers can touch, see, and feel a stove costs money....it is unfair for online dealers to setup a cheap website and whore out appliances..appliance margins run 15-20%(just enough for mom and pop dealers to stay in biz)...."

You don't honestly expect us to feel sorry for anyone getting 15 to 20 point margin, do you?

Do you walk into a car dealership and buy cars at full MSRP as to support the dealer? How about shopping at Costco? You avoid that at all cost too? I assume the local Wal-Mart has never seen you shop there either.

Really, this makes no sense. It is no the consumer's problem how a dealer stays in business. It is theirs! If they can't make a living selling appliances against internet dealers, then they should get into another line of business. This is why I am not in that business!

Yes, it is tough to compete this way. But provide excellent service, know your product well, and you get me shopping at your place at higher prices. Be ignorant and make me spend days in this forum to figure out the best thing for me, and you may see some of us price shopping.

By the way, I am going with my local dealer. But I fully understand why some would not.

Berryberry, what it this need for you to always be right? You sound very bitter and seem to feel that it is necessary to put others down. You must be a very lonely person who feels quite victimized. You should seek professional help. Everybody deserves to be happy - even you.

Some of you have missed the BIG picture. Berryberry got a quote on an older model, and was basically fine with that. They then said that because they had run out of the old model, they'd honor that price on a new one, rather than lose her/him as a customer.

Berryberry only got another quote because the contractor had asked her/him to do so. Berryberry didn't go looking for trouble but was merely extending a courtesy to her/his contractor.

It could have ended with sore feelings all around, but a third option (a display) opened up. I think that's great!

Now, I'm not in this business, but I think UMRP is a good idea. 20 or 30% margin to pay for rent, lights, phone book ads, other ads, sales people and other employees, freight, utilities etc. And they are probably not selling dozens of these items a day or week or month. Anyway, I support berryberry in this particular case, and I support Antss on the broader issue.

Jeeze, berryberry, I'm sorry this has been so contentious. In the naysayers defense, I think, at least some did not understand the situation. (the whole story- although I thought you explained it well)

alexr - thanks for trying to make things clearer for folks and the kind words

baver - ok, so now you have gone from trashing Electrolux as a company to trying to insult me. I don't know whether to feel honored or insulted. Of course what you wrote really is more apropos in describing yourself, but hey maybe some day you will get it right

berryberry...move on...it is not cool to stay up late every night reading gardenweb. It is not necessary to critique every posters opinion. i was simply stating that ants is correct...time is money(at least it is to me and to the majority of people on this website..otherwise they would not be here)...you could not possibly have saved enough money to justify the tens of hours you spend on this website....

this website has been setup for people to give their unique opinions..please stop being the moderator...you are not always right....

I love that the internet has allowed consumers to communicate. We are the owners of a small business not kitchen or appliance related. We have some products that the manufacturer protects the price. We compete with sellers on the internet on other products and on yet others it is a totally open market. We set ourself apart with service and trying to anticipate what our customers will need. We bought our kitchen appliances from a local business because we know how hard it is to compete with the big corporations of the world. We were shocked at how poorly we were treated. Once we handed over our money were treated like the red headed step child. Don't they believe in word of mouth advertising? If you have a brick and mortar store and compete against the internet I do believe most people would rather deal with B&M if price is not too far off and you need to be NICE to your customers. You have to create the benefit of dealing with you to keep your customers. I am glad to hear everyone's opinion on gardenweb and have learned so much and hope the exchange of info has helped people to make good decisions. My time is worth alot so that is why I research cost and opinion. It's not all saving every penny --the cheapest isn't always the least expensive. A little research-you know the tens of hours late at night on gardenweb and internet in general kind-saved me thousands of (tax free)dollars on my kitchen remodel and gave me a great kitchen. My investment of time was really worth a lot then!

bb don't stoop to the tools.

I am a long-time member of this forum, and remember seeing Berryberry's original thread, and thinking that I'd seen that sort of tone before, and I wanted no part of it. My feelings had NOTHING to do with the subject matter, I just didn't like the angry tone of it, and could tell it was going to escalate. I think this forum is about the greatest there is on the 'net, cause of the wonderful people on it. I wouldn't want that congeniality and sense of community spoiled. It's one thing for someone to have a bad experience with any part of a kitchen re-do - we've ALL been there. It's another for posters to blast anyone who does not provide total commiseration, or who offers a different view.

How many of us have had a bad experience during the kitchen renovation? - probably 99% of us. But most of us have just told our stories on this forum to vent, as well as to help others in similar situations. Yet how many of us used phrases like "screw you" to other Gardenweb members? Or said anyone questioning or providing alternate viewpoints were "smart-asses"? I don't wish this forum to be spoiled. There are so many other forums on the 'net where people spew anger at each other. This forum has been blessedly free from that. I think Berryberry needs to put in perspective her experience. Really, is it so terribly horrendous? There was a price dispute and communication and vendor relationship problems. So many of us have experienced that, but haven't been so vitriolic about it. My goodness, the kitchen sounds quite high-end - be happy with it and let the "livid" go. If you don't like the opposing views, just leave them be, and let people express themselves freely.

The most telling phrase from Berryberry:

No real anger from me (except at those few folks who chose to criticize me unjustly...

So, if one doesn't agree with Berryberry, and has any view other than sympathy and agreement, she views that as unjust criticism and thereby justifies her anger.

Look, things are going to go over budget, surprise costs are going to happen, people aren't going to do exactly how you want them to do. That's life, that's home renovation. I agree with Mschuna and Baver. And Alexr should be commended for trying to appease everyone. This thread needs to just peter out.

I was going to stay out of this, but since shannonplus2 posted, I'm going to post as well. I'm a long time member of this forum as well - I finished my remodel in 2002 with a lot of help from people on this forum and the kitchen forum and have found both of these forums to be really great with lots of helpful comments and few trolls and spam - that's why I've stuck around so long.

On this issue, I'm going to respectfully disagree with shannonplus2. I think berryberry's intial and followup posts were fine until she started to get personally attacked by a couple of trolls. I agree "screw you" was inappropriate but things tend to get heated once people start making personal attacks.

Anyway, people, let's get back to being civil and stop the personal attacks.

Shannons post made me look up other threads to see some patterns and now I would like to retract my prior post or at least take the s off of tools. My bad.

ya think - You are correct, I should not stoop to the tools level and thus will ignore the most recent posts from the angry appliance dealer, mschuma, and a few others. Let me just say - if people want to disagree, thats their choice. But when they choose to insult me, well then they shouldn't expect an all rosy retort.

However - to make it clear, the two comments my "screw you" comment was directed at from the initial thread were:

Man I love stories about greed and stupidity.

and

Oh, please! Don't get me going! People who turn the world upside down looking to save the last few bucks on some expensive appliance or luxury car and then go ballistic when things don't go to their satisfaction are one of my major dislikes

Which were so far off base and completely missed the point of my post. In fact, on the initial thread that had some 80+ replies - I only posted twice. Yes just twice - the original post and a second one which said:

Wow - this thread has gotten a bit crazy since I started it.

I am not going to respond to a bunch of comments now (especially those smart-ass ones questioning my intelligence and intentions) - I will do so at a later time. I purposely did not name names in the thread other than asking for contact info at Bluestar / Signature, because I wanted to make sure to speak with all parties involved so I could make sure I fully understood all aspects of this from each party before I posted anything that potentially would impugne someone's reputation / integrity.

That is why in my initial post - I said "without going into full details".

Since then, I have spoken with the manager of the local appliance dealer, Mike for Indoorxs (who since he posted here, I have no problem now mentioning) and have a message in to someone from Signature. Once I hear from Signature, I will come back with an update and will provide more details.

Not sure how my original post or my followup got anyone's panties in a bunch but as promised I came back to fill in the rest of the story for those who were interested. I appreciate their feedback on this thread and I am sorry some trolls have tried to hijack this thread by personally attacking me. I have posted on a number of other threads in this forum to be helpful to others. I believe sharing my experience in this particular case would also be helpful. Its too bad some folks don't feel that way