We had our architect and builder on board together from the very beginning. We thought 2 heads were better than one, and they brought 2 different perspectives and ideas into the picture. The builder we went with was very "green" and he gave his suggestions on that subject to the architect. Also, sometimes the architect would want to do something special and having the builder there telling him if is was possible/practical or not was a help. We were also on a budget and the architect sometimes does not know the prices of things but the builder does. I think in the end the house turned out better and an easier project because of that. Also, if the builder would have an idea that he maybe did before, he could show that to the architect. Changes in front are alot cheaper than in the end.

It's always a good idea to have an architect and a builder involved in the design phase. However, you need to be sure each has the skill and personality needed to collaborate effectively. You also need to find an arrangement that keeps the builder happy whether that involves a project commitment or just a fee with no commitment.

The builder should provide cost information rather than just saying something is too expensive or that he recommends a cheaper way of doing something. To make decisions you need cost comparisons.

It is a good idea to write an outline specification as soon as possible so everyone knows what the major materials and systems are and the builder can start developing a cost estimate.

Ideally engage the builder early and like the earlier poster stated he/she should back up their cost claims with a written estimate. In my case, one builder suggested I have a stair built to the attic which he said wouldn't cost much. When he spec'd out the plan he charged $7000 for that.
Since we were building with ICF, the builder instructed the architect to make all dimensions a multiple of the icf blocks so blocks wouldn't be cut in half and affect the structural integrity.
However, things were still missed by both of them and picked up by one of my in-laws who's a building project supervisor for the county's school district. My advice is show as many people as you can at each stage and bounce the ideas off the architect and builder.

trudymom and macv - good input, I will definitely engage builder earlier than later.

Since your builders were on-board from near the beginning, when (I assume) there were not complete enough construction documents to bid out, how did you assure yourself that you were getting the "best deal" from the contractor, not knowing how others would price out the job? The GC I spoke with said he could do either a fixed price or cost-plus contract, by the way.

The contractor's project manager seems like a likable, artistic yet practical guy (he brought up "bed alcoves" from A Pattern Language, for instance, without even knowing that book is one of my bibles and I want to do bed alcoves in the house). He will collaborate well with the architect I think.

docj - when I get drawings will definitely be getting lots of input -- most importantly from the experts on this site!

Right after we found our architect, we interviewed about 5 builders that we had gotten strong recommendations from. Since we did not have our plans, we talked about price/square foot to determine how their prices compared to each other. Then there were 2 builders that we liked alot that had similar pricing, so we went to see some of their previous projects and talked to their previous clients, then decided on one that had alot of experience building green. We went with him because several people had said that they would certainly build with him again, and one them was already.

If you want to use a Cost of the Work plus a Fee contract this would be time to determine the Fee especially if it is based on a % of the Cost. If it will be a Fixed Price contract the % mark-up charged for additional work and/or allowance overruns should be determined.

Keep it low and perhaps eliminate it for allowance items.

Definitely go for fixed price, it'll be cheaper than cost plus overall. The builder's aware of items that are going to raise the cost that you may not be aware of which will raise the cost price and thereby his %. Also with cost plus the builder does not have an incentive to use the most cost effective methods/materials. I called my builder out (he's cost plus) on quite a few things and saved tens of thousands of dollars.
Nearly all builders low ball finishing items like plumbing fixtures, lights, flooring and cabinets. If you haven't priced out exactly what you want to the most specific detail you'll definitely go over the budget allowance. In fact after spec'ing them out add 10-20% allowance, if you don't use it you can always add it to something else or not draw it from the bank.

Here's a great article with some excellent points on the architect verse builder concept and relationship/roles or both. I think each has there place and does a particular job and I think that the entire concept of building a home or structure involves both of them at every step of the way.

http://www.housingzone.com/article/CA6391048.html

doctj - How do you figure? With cost plus, aren't you getting 'exactly what you pay for' and nothing more or nothing less. You get to see just what the cost of an item is and the percentage that is paid to the builder for his job. What more really would you want. I would not want a fixed contract price that does not identify to me the cost of every aspect. My builder could be jacking up particular budgets and making a 40 or 50% markup and I wouldn't even know it. A good builder is going to bring you three cost comparisons in a high-medium-low range for you to choose from. If I do not like the "cost" of something then I tell him to find me something that costs less.

1nad -- great article, thanks.

My architect says "we want to bring in the builders 'early', but not yet. We want to help you interview several builders and be in the position of control." I am ok with waiting, but not too long.

mimi72 - Why should he get anymore control than your builder? Did someone help you interview and hire him?

In my opinion, I think waiting might be a big mistake. Equality amongst each professional will go along way in establishing the mutual respect factor among the two of them and with you. This will help them achieve a solid and successful working relationship from the get go. Giving your architect more control might blow up his head a bit and not allow him to recognize the builders place...I am concerned about his ability to even work successfully with a builder if he does not see the significance of having one involved from the beginning. I hope he doesn't make problems for you later on during the building process...

But what's the definition of "the beginning"? We are only at the stage of siting the house/outbuildings and a bubble diagram of interior spaces. When I meet with the architects next week I will pinpoint them on the timing of bringing in the builder.

In my opinion, the beginning to me is when you decide to take your residential home construction ideas and make more of them. The point at which you start to engage professionals whether it be an architect, a builder and even a realtor.

I am a realtor and my brother is a developer. We do not live close to each other but we talk often about our professions and the relationship between the two. Often times he would prefer to work with a client right from the get go of purchasing a piece of property. Depending on the style of the home, the property can play into a variety of things. He has constructed homes on the side of a mountain with a plan (including location) that was not very conducive to a mountainside property. Moving the house a few feet in one direction or another (if applicable) and possibly moving the garage to a drive under verse a main level, could have saved quite a bit of money and meant the difference between a comfortable and aesthetically appealing finished product or not and might not have been achieved without his input and experience. He always likes to work with the architect and realtor in finding and purchasing a property that will best suit the function of the home to be built. He's very passionate about what he does and sincerely takes a vested interest in every project he takes on. His goal in home building is to develop a 'palace' of sorts that the homeowner will enjoy for years to come. These are the same qualities I shopped for with my own builder.

I think of it like those who buy a car. If you are being price conscious, do you shop the car, the insurance, consider fuel prices and registration/maintenance all at the same time or do you just buy the car and hope for the best later on? I know when I am shopping, and I know not everyone does this...I think it is what makes me a savvy shopper....I like to have all things considered so I am making the best informed choice and everything runs smoothly. My brother has told me horror stories of architectural designs that do not even meet particular local codes or were so overwhelmingly complicated that the he just had to include an extra cushion just for trying to decipher them. Rather than working through it step by step as a team. I, as a realtor, believe that building really requires a team approach.

Like in surgery too, if I had to have open heart surgery, do I want the cardiologist, anesthesiologist, nurses, respiratory therapist, my primary care physician, etc. all involved so I get the best possible care? You've seen that move AWAKE, right? Haha Each has a job to do and one cannot really do it well without the other, although they are all working towards the same result.

You are at the stage of setting the house and your architect is going to figure in design to this state, but your builder may have input/ideas on specifics of location that your designer did not think of and vice versa. I would want the best of both worlds to combine expertise and come up with a valued product that I will be exceptionally pleased with. Its money your are spending, make every dollar count. Don't forget, your architect is not in control...you are!

You don't want to bring a builder in later who says I wish this and what about that....and you like his input and it's too late to go back. This is the same advice I tell all of my clients who buy raw land from me and want to build. Don't get me wrong, its not all just about the builder...if you posted saying you had your builder chosen and were not sure if using an architect/designer was appropriate, I would argue it the other way around as well. I do not believe one has a place without the other. As I said earlier, I am a large advocate of the team approach and would use a designer and builder on any of my own projects.

I suppose it comes down to a little bit of efficient cost management and a lot of personal preference as well...but an entire team would be my choice!

We chose the builder and the architect simulataneously. They have done a number of custom homes in our area and the architect pricing to us was more favorable because he did not have to spec every detail because this builder knows how to finish a detail (like a groined ceiling in the entry) without a special drawing. That = $.

We engaged the builder on a cost plus basis. The trick in this kind of relationship is having faith that the contractor is not getting a kickback from the sub. Am I paranoid? Yup. My husband and I are business people (control freaks) so we have direct priced some of the work ourselves to get a comfort level with the prices presented by the contractor. For example, we priced the precast quoins and other "stone" exterior treatments. Our price was $28K, the contractor presented a bid for $43K.

As you can see, the differential in bids like this can really add up. So, that's the downside. The upside is the builder can not go broke on us during the process because we are taking all the risk.

Your budget, the time you have to devote to the project (to investigate alternate costs), the amount of finishes detail that you can spec at design phase (quality leval of cabinetry, special ceiling details, flooring material, counter materials) should dictate whether you put the risk on a trusted builder and take a flat fee, or keep the risk and try to control your costs.

Good luck!