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Looking for suggestions for our floor plan

16 years ago

Hi,

We are again ready to build a new house and the designer just sent us the floor plan.

Any comments or suggestions will be great. :)

The following is the link to the PDF file. (Sorry that I didn't have the picture since our designer only gives us PDF file)

The house is for a small lot ( 48' wide by 92' and the house can be only 36' wide)

https://cid-e8091a36a3714693.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/Documents/L376.pdf

Thanks a lot

Yan

Comments (36)

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry Yan but your link takes us to a hotmail log-in page so there is no way we can view it. You need to convert the pdf file to an image, then post it on a photo sharing website and give us a link to that.

    Just in case you need help converting the pdf an image... here's how to do it.

    First save the pdf file to your computer. Then open the pdf file on you computer and take a "picture" of portion that has the floorplan image(s) you want to share.

    To take a "picture" of part of a pdf file, use Adobe Acrobat STANDARD to open the pdf file. (I don't think Adobe Acrobat Reader has the necessary tools.) Find an icon that looks kind of like a little camera on the tool bar. It is called a "snapshot tool".

    Click on the camera icon then put your cursor at the upper right corner of the section you want to take a picture of and, while holding down the left mouse button, drag the cursor down and to the left until there is a dotted line rectangle around the part you want to take a picture of. When you release the mouse button, you'll get a message that "the selected area has been copied to the clipboard."

    Next, open your "Paint" program - there are other programs that will work but "Paint" comes bundled with your computer so I'm pretty sure you'll have the program. The program should be under Accessories and its icon looks like a little clear plastic cup with tiny little paintbrushes sticking up. Find the word "Edit" on the tool bar at the top and click that, then on the drop down menu, click "Paste". The picture you took off the pdf file should show up in the white rectangle.

    Save the Paint image by doing the following:
    Click "File" on the Paint menu bar.
    Click "Save As". A window will pop up that is probably set to save things into "My Pictures" and lets you assign a filename to the image and decide the format (file type) you want to save it as. You'll want to save as Type: JPEG.

    Once you've done all that, you'll need to load the JPEG image onto an on-line picture sharing website like photobucket and from there, you'll be able to paste the image directly onto your message and we'll be able to see it. If you need help with this last step, let us know what photo sharing website you want to use and someone on the forum will be able to guide you through those steps.

    Alternatively, ask any 10 y.o. you happen to know for help and they'll do it all for you in about 5 minutes! They may also know an easier way but make sure they show you ALL the steps and give you time to take notes so that next time you can do for yourself. If it weren't for my nephew and niece, I'd still be saying things like "email? what's email?!?!"

    G'Luck

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Bevangel:

    Thanks a lot for the step by step instructions. Best reply I ever get from any forum. :)

    Here are the images.

    Thanks again
    Yan


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    Your second plan shows steps in a good direction: Secondary bedrooms look good, as do a couple other things ... but I do agree with many of CP's thoughts: - I like the idea of swapping the W/D with the sink. Bonus: This will also allow you to vent the dryer directly outside. I also agree that it'd be better to move the W/D closer to the master bedroom ... and to enlarge the master bedroom closet. - Overall, I fear that the casual entrance is too crowded. I'd make it a bit deeper, especially since you intend to age in this home: You may one day need to store a walker or a wheelchair in this area (it's quite common for older people to need these things when they go out ... but not to need them inside their own houses). - The kitchen is still a mess. My current kitchen has about 6' between the two cabinet runs, and it is too wide; the two cabinet runs do not work together well -- everything's about a step too far apart -- and yours is even farther. You want "right sized", not big. I suggest you take it over to the kitchen threads and ask for opinions. Consider this simple kitchen layout: The refrigerator is now on the edge near the table, and a person can get a drink without fully entering the kitchen. Note, too, that the refrigerator can be "recessed" into the wall /bumped into the office so that it doesn't protrude into the walkway ... yet you also don't have to spend more /get less on a counter depth refrigerator. The sink is placed on the long run, giving you a comfortable place to prep food and then scoot it down to the range, which is still in the walkway, giving it plenty of space. The island is deeper, making it more functional. You could have storage on both sides. I'd leave a 4' walkway on both sides of the island; that's a comfortable amount of space, yet not so much space that you'd drip things on the floor or be too far away for the counters to work together. - I agree that one sink in the guest bathroom is all that's needed -- and with no linen closet in the bedroom area, storage is needed. Yes, basement storage is nice ... but your guests won't know where to go look for an extra blanket in the middle of the night. Alternately, perhaps you could go with a stack-up W/D in this bathroom ... or facing out into the hallway. - With its current toilet /tub placement, the guest bathroom is cramped at the end. Consider this very simple bathroom layout: It keeps your water in one wall and is highly functional: - I agree that sliders out of the living room would be better than sliders in their current behind-the-table position. However, since you and your wife think it's okay, I suggest you test it: Move your dining room table close to your current back door, allowing about the same amount of space around the table -- definitely place chairs at the table -- and see whether you find it easy to get in/out of the door with something in your hands. Then try it pretending you are dependent upon a walker.
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  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Overall I like the plan. I think one thing I would consider is if you could move the master so that it is more private from the 2ndary bedrooms. Maybe do a switch of bath and bedroom itself.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't think the kitchen is laid out well. The fridge, sink and stove are all quite far apart.

    Cute house, overall!

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Overall I think it's nice. I'm only going to focus on the negative because there are many positive and I've sure you are already aware of them.

    Personally, with all the bedrooms on the second floor I would rather have a stackable w/d upstairs and use the first floor laundry room space for something else.

    Is that a half-wall in the living room? Please don't do that. It's very dated-looking.

    I would not put ceramic tile in the front foyer if you are doing wood elsewhere. It's a fairly small footprint and I would prefer to see continuity. Maybe ceramic or slate tile in the rear entry area.

    I would prefer that the dining room have a full exterior wall, rather than just a sgd to a screened and covered porch. It may be dark.

    I think the stairs lack style. I would try re-orient them so that they run along the exterior wall and you can put a little bench in the middle. If you look at the plan called "parkview" at the Southern living website you will see this type of staircase. This plan was in the Idea House issue one year and the stairs looked really, really beautiful. You should try to get hold of this magazine because the style is similar to your house and the interior was beautifully done.

    Is EIFS widely used in your area? In some areas there is a stigma attached to it. Where I live a home with EIFS sells for much, much less than an identical one without. I realize that installed properly it's an acceptable material, but if the market perceives it as a problem your house will be worth less.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First of all, the elevation took my breath away...Just the style I LOVE. I don't often say this, but I also love the floorplan.

    The kitchen is open, but not visible from everywhere. The main 'players' of the kitchen are not too far apart, just a few steps really, while still allowing for more workers than just one. If you'll have a few workers at once, a prep sink in the island might help.

    I don't know the quantity or ages of your kids, but we didn't elect to have our bedroom separated from our kids' either. You have a closet in between yours and the adjacent bedroom and a stairway on the other side, so I think that's good.

    I like how you can get into your closet without going through the bathroom. I've seen that in many plans lately and think it would be a pain and a possible moisture problem.

    The dining room could be kinda dark, but probably used mostly when it's dark out anyway?

    It seems like you've made good use of the square footage you have...the compromises are reasonable, and ones I could live with.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I love it because it is very unique. I have never seen a house like this.

    My only issue is the placement of the laundry room. It couldn't get any further from the bedrooms.

    Since all of your bedrooms are upstairs I think the laundry room should be too. It will make your life a lot easier.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you're waiting for me to naysay the island... well, I'm not. It's almost out of the way enough to be useful instead of a walk-around pain. I'd move it just a bit farther south so that the oven and the refrig doors can be opened without blocking the way. Or move those appliances north -- just move them so that you can get a casserole out without contortions *and* while letting someone walk behind you without bumping. I live with a kitchen that size and can tell you it's small enough to be convenient for one and big enough for two cooks without getting in the way of each other.

    Another vote for moving the W/D upstairs... convenience is far more important than the closet space! And before you scream, consider that a properly designed closet will neatly and efficiently store twice as much clothing as the common rod-on-wall and one-shelf closet. Take that master closet area to a professional closet designer, along with the desire to have a convenient laundry area. I have no doubt s/he can design his/her closets far superior to what is on the plan AND put in a workable laundry area.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like your second floor exactly as it is!

    As far as the laundry room, I personally would keep it where it is. I spend most of my time on the first floor, and I would not like going upstairs all the time to do laundry.

    The only thing I do not like is the small dining room. We use ours a lot, and the one on the plan is really small. The lack of window would not concern me... the double doors (with sidelights, it seems!) of the office WILL let light in.

    Nice house!

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks a lot for all the nice comments and great suggestsions.

    For the laundry room, it is my wife's decision. We have our lanudry room on second floor in my current house and my wife doesn't like it since she spends most of the time downstairs. Also, it seems it is a trend that more houses have their laundry room in the main floor now. In the same neighborhood, we have visited about 10 new houses, all houses have the lanudry room in the main floor.

    For the dining room, I agree it is a little bit small. Originally it is about 12*14 but we have to cut it to make the size of the house smaller. The house now is around 2450 square feet. Since the dining room is connnected to the hall way, I guess we can extend the dining table a little bit further if there are too many guests.

    Also, I will talk with the designer to add a skylight to the ceiling of the office room and hopefully that will bring enough sunshine to dining room.

    For kitchen, I agree the current layout is not ideal. I will discuess with the designer to change that.

    For the half wall in the living room, I am going to ask the designer to remove it. Instead I am thinking of adding a beam to the ceiling or lowering the ceiling on the edge so the living room can be open but still seperately from the hall way.

    For the entry area, I agree all wood will look better.

    In case it matters, the front of the house is facing south.

    Also, this is a traditional neighborhood in Madison, WI. It is called Middleton Hills. Many unique house there. If you are interested, you can take a look
    Middleton Hills

    Thanks again
    Yan

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The suggestion on the laundry room is something to consider. I have lived in two different two story homes. One with laundry room on main and this one I'm in now with laundry on 2nd. I really like it on the second floor. This is where all of the laundry is. It sure spares my back from lugging it up and down the stairs. We don't have a big laundry room it is just a double doored closet with a tile flooring it sits in. Hope this helps.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sounds like your wife knows what she wants as far as the laundry room goes. You might want to consider putting plumbing for a stackable unit in an upstairs closet just for resale purposes - if it's not too expensive it might be worth it.

    Do you have a basement? It looks like the main floor stairs go down as well as up?

    One other thing you might consider regarding the stairs (if you do not want to change them drastically) is to pull the lowest step forward and have it just slightly in front of the door to the basement (or the wall - I can't tell what's there) and have a curved lower step. Nothing that would be a tripping hazard, but just a little added interest.

    It's going to be a beautiful home.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Solie:

    Thanks for both great suggestions. I will talk with the builder to see whether both can be done. Yes, the house does have a basement.

    Yan

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yan,

    Glad to see you got the images posted! Your architect has done a great job given the constraints of your lot size. Very flowable, workable floorplan.

    There are only a couple of changes I might suggest:

    1) Move the laundry room upstairs. Carrying laundry up/down stairs is a real pain! Yes, if you spend most of your time downstairs, it does mean extra trip upstairs but it saves you from having to carry heavy loads of laundry up and down stairs. More trips with no load - vs - fewer trips with heavy loads? I'd go with the former! Question would be, where to put the laundry? Since you garage faces the back of the house, it seems like you have lots of options of things you could do above the garage to gain some extra square footage without it having any affect whatsoever on the front elevation or your footprint. Have you considered building above the garage at all?

    2) If you can move the laundry room upstairs, then I would rearrange the current laundry room and powderroom area to create an office that shares a common wall with the kitchen and I'd move the powderroom up against the garage wall. In the common wall b/w kitchen and the new office, I would put in a slider window that could be opened or maybe even just a "pass thru" opening. Reason - my DH and I have this set up now and we love it because, in the evenings, he is usually on the computer getting bills paid, etc. while I'm cooking dinner and the pass thru window betweem our kitchen and office allows us to catch up with each other's day while we get our respective chores done. Its been a boon to our marriage! I can also imagine if you have kids such a pass-thru window would allow a parent handling cooking/clean up chores to simultaneously supervise kids doing homework or on the computer. That computer room upstairs, I'd probably turn into a library nook with no computer in it. It is just too far away for a parent to easily supervise kids while they net-surf!

    3) The dining room is rather small and does look like it might be a bit dark but I would recommend against putting in skylights in the office to bring extra light into the dining room. If I understand you correctly, your house faces south which means the office faces west. Skylights on the office roof would expose it to the hot afternoon sun and could make the space too warm for comfort. I would probably opt for some indirect cove lighting to light up the ceiling of the dining room instead. Since you have French doors with sidelights leading to the office, the dining room will get indirect light from the office windows and it is pretty open to the living room too. So, I don't think the room will feel claustrophobic. You will need to keep the office furnishings pretty minimalist tho since the stacks of books/paper/computer crap/filing cabinets etc that tend to collect in office areas would ruin the view from your dining room!

    4) Do have a kitchen specialist work with you on the final layout of your kitchen. Its plenty large but where you place the appliances will make a difference in how convenient it is to work in.

    Overall, I do think you have a fantastic plan and I agree that it is a perfectly lovely front elevation.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My only suggestion is to see if you can get french pocket doors from the dining into the office. Surely any door like that can be put on a pocket door type system. Your office is only 8ft. deep, if you open the door then that's just 5 feet, if you're desk or any chair is there then it's just not enough room. Also, in the same thought, where's your lightswitch in that room? Will you have to open the door and totally reach around it to get to the lightswitch? Will you have furniture in that room that is essentially in the way? We have a lightswitch that's in this type placement, it's ok but not ideal b/c we can often leave the door next to the switch shut, but we're also going into a room that's about 13 ft deep opposed to 8.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Jeannekay:

    Thanks for the suggestion regarding the french door. This was one of my concerns too. I think the door width is 2 feet wide istead of 3' feet wide which I think it is ok

    Still, I will talk with our designer to see if the pocket french door makes more sense.

    Yan

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I love your floorplan, and that is a great looking front elevation! I think it will be a gorgeous and well-functioning house. So congratulations! It sounds like your wife knows what she wants re: the laundry room, that's a good enough reason to leave it there. The one thing I noticed was that at the top of the stairs there is a really nice area you have labeled for the computer. I also notice it looks like you have a desk in the kitchen, which is very smart imho!! (we have one too). I don't know, or missed, the ages of your children if you have any. I have to say I love having our computer right here in the kitchen, and I can watch everything that is going on computer-wise w/ the kiddos. Just the protective and suspicious-of-the-internet, everyone's-a-pedophile mom in me speaking. That landing area at the top of the stairs looks like it could be a great and cozy reading spot, with a chair and a couch and a bookcase?!

    BTW, we lived in Madison about 10 years ago while my dh was training at the University of Madison. I am very familiar with the Middleton area as well. What a great place to live, and to raise kids! I loved it there. I miss Culver's!!!

    Good luck!

    Amy

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Amyks:

    Thanks a lot for the compliment. I am currently living in west side of Madison.
    We plan to move to Middleton since it seems Middleton has better school.

    I have one daughter, she is about 5 years old so internet is not a big concern right now but I am sure this will be a problem when she grows up.

    Anyhow, since several people mention the office is a little bit small (Only 8' deep), I am thinking of switch the screen porch and the office so the office can be 12 by 10 and the porch will be 13 by 8.

    Anyone has any comments regarding which layout will be better?
    I really can't decide which way to go?

    Please help? :)

    Thanks
    Yan

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'd leave the office where it is; 13' consecutive wall space is more useful than 12' and I suspect it will be quieter in the present location -maybe that's not a concern, or maybe the wall by mud room could be insulated. It also has more windows, whereas the screen room seems to be very enclosed.

    re W/D: If spouse likes it on the first floor, that counts for much, especially if the opinion is speaking from experience and not from habit. Put in a laundry chute; that would at least save some trips down the steps. Personally, I'm very negative regarding mixing steps and laundry baskets, but a couple years on crutches left me very negative about steps, period. However, I will note that one is more likely to fall when carrying bulky items or armloads *down* than when carrying them upwards.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What is the den/office going to be used for? If you are a professor who does a significant amount of work from home and you have a lot of books and papers lying around you might want to configure the office so that it's not visible from the dining room. A pile of messy student homeworks, paper you are using, three open texts, and a clunky computer doesn't look pretty for your dinner guests. If the office/den is more of a reading room where you can sit with a laptop (or you are very neat) then it's not a big deal.

    If you have a lot of books, do you have enough bookshelf space? Your daughter is going to have books too.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    laundry chute is a great idea. I will see if there is a good location for that.

    No, I am not a professor. I wish I was. :)
    The office will have
    1) a desk for computer
    2) a corner small sofa for relaxing and reading
    3) bookshelf on each end

    For my daugter, she will use the loft area in the second floor as her study and reading place.

    I agree the office might get messy. (It will be :) ) I guess we will have to use gloosy art window instead of clear window so the guest won't see what is in the office.

    To me, to be frank, either way is ok. But for resale, I am not sure which way to go.

    Still, tough tough decison. :(

    Thanks/Yan

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would prefer to switch the porch and the office. Then you'd have a view of the outside that is larger than just the small door in the corner. Yes still dark, but not a view of a messy office and you could close the office off when not in use from the dining. It would also have the extra space if you ever needed it for somebody to sleep in.

    You'd also have a better flow for entertaining with wider doors to the patio.

    I don't know, but even for small children having the master just a few extra steps away I would have no issues hearing them and gladly walk the extra steps while they are smaller to have more privacy when they are older, which is a longer time. The closet won't do much with the doors like they are as any noise will transfer through the doors and not the walls. DH and I tend to discuss things in our bedroom as it is our private space and I like not having to worry about what anybody hear from that.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nice plan! With the Craftsman style and location in Middleton Hills, having a "dated" interior with half walls fits the style and neighborhood as I think I remember it there. Have you worked out your furniture arrangement for the living room so that you're not walking through conversation areas? Determining this should help you decide the width, height, and location of the wall opposite the fireplace.

    What kind of view do you have from the screen porch and office locations? The side of another house? Depending on the answer to this, I would bring the wall of the existing screened porch out in line with the living room wall and make it the office. Then it would be large enough in case you (or someone you sell it to) needs a bedroom on the first floor. When they do the framing, you could have them put the studs between this room and the mudroom so a door could be put in to get to the powder room at a later date if necessary. Then put a window where the exterior door is. As mentioned above, this office location would allow for the mess to be closed off.

    With the office now the screened porch, you could put windows across the entire side opposite the French doors and get more light into the dining room. If the view isn't great, make the additional windows higher. You could have the door to the exterior from this room, and with the extra windows you'd get better cross-ventilation this way.

    When living in the north, IMO you can't have enough storage on the first floor! If you move the front entry closet door wall out to make the closet a square, you could have an L-shaped hanging space on 2 walls, and the door would then be able to open inward along the left wall. I think this would improve the front door situation. I'd also put some kind of window (stained glass?) in the stair landing.

    I like having easier access to the laundry when entering from the garage. That way more stuff gets dumped on top of the washer and dryer, as well as on the cubbie bench instead of migrating on into the desk and island in the kitchen. Since the wide hall to the powder room cannot be used for a bench or cabinets, I'd take the wall to the laundry room and move it to the right. Then I'd switch the laundry door to open off of the main part of the mudroom. This would also let more light into the mudroom area.

    I just thought of another way you might rearrange the mudroom, laundry, powder room area, and I have some thoughts on your kitchen. This whole area is similar to ours. But DH needs the computer, so I need to get off for now!

    Anne

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like to 'walk through' a house and try to visualize how it will live.

    The foyer seems awkward to me. The entry door opens and you look at...the stairs or the stair wall only five feet away. The door swing takes up three of those feet. Then there's this area to the right with a large guest closet that's blocked by the door swing. It just doesn't work for me. (Will you *use* a guest closet? We seldom use ours.)

    That's one *very* long hallway from the front door all the way through the house to the garage door. It may feel like a tunnel. Taking out the half-wall to the LR will help, although the LR already has little useable wall space. (We once had a long hall I called 'the bowling alley'. Kids loved to sock-surf that space.)

    There is no 'play space' for children. Plan on them playing in the basement? Most small kids don't want to be that far from Mom, and older kids still need adult supervision.

    Others have discussed the kitchen. Not sure I like it so open to the rest of the house -- cooking mess, odors. The powder room is convenient for family use, but a guest will walk past the kitchen to use it. I like the size of your 'back hall' with powder room, mudroom, laundry.

    I'd mind walking through the (dark) DR to get to the office and screened porch -- which is on the hot west side of the house. Will you eat on the porch in summer? Is it deep enough for a table and chairs and anything else? (Subtract the walkway through it from any furniture arrangement.)

    The office will also heat up in summer. I wouldn't want mine so 'public' -- maybe better tucked farther back in the house? Or, enlarge and enclose the 'computer loft' for an office? (That would help the foyer problems, too.)

    Master Suite: You don't need windows in closets -- or over tubs for that matter. I would want the toilet room to have natural light from a window to feel less like a closet. I'd prefer the shower on an interior wall for greater warmth. I would never want the toilet and shower to share a room.

    Do you know you like narrow corner windows (MBR)? You might like more light since that's your sole window wall.

    Can BR #2 have a north window? Any room benefits by having natural light from two directions.

    Did I pick up mention of EIFS? Although it has been improved and is perfectly fine in most cases, the public has heard so many negtives about it that it brings down the market value of a house.

    I could also mention things I really like about this plan, but that's not as helpful as trying to troubleshoot it!


  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for all the wonderful suggestions from everyone. It really really helps.

    Hi, Chisue,

    Glad you know Middleton Hills. It is a really nice traditional neighborhood. Everyone knows their neighbors.

    I really like your idea for the front entry closet. It will help a lot in the winter when several guests are coming.

    I also like your suggestion regarding the laundry room. Once the laundry wall moved to the right, it will leave more space for the power room which might have a space for future shower.

    Our current office is facing our neighbor so the view won't be great. After reading yours and several suggestions above, I think it makes more sense to switch the screen porch and the office.

    You mentioned to have high window in the screen porch for privacy. Are you talking about a sun room? I thought for screen porch, it is screen around the base.

    For better view, one idea I have is to plant some tall ever green plants in the border so the view from the dining room will be trees.

    Once again, thanks for your wonderful suggestions and hope you have more coming once you can hold on the computer. :)

    Yan

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Chisue, sorry about my wrong reply. My previous email is for jimandanne_mi instead of you. :)

    Yan

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Chisue:

    First, thanks for all the suggestions. It is always good to hear views from different angle.

    For the foyer, I agree it is not ideal. Ideally we like our foyer to be bigger and the stair is not visible from the entry. But because of the constrain of the lot (the house can only be 36' wide), I guess that is the compromise we have to make.

    Same as kids play room.
    Since our house is only about 2450 squre feet, there is just not enough space for another play room.

    We are planing to finish the basement so that will be one place kids can play.

    Also, we only have one child and she can use both the loft and the second bath room for her stuff.

    For the dark dining room (to be frank, I would rather call it hearth room since I am not a big fan of formal dining room), I am thinking of use tube light to bring some sunshine into the room.

    For the master suite, originally there is a big window on the east wall but for privacy reason I change it to have two small side windows. I think we are going to change it back since we can have two layer window coverings if privacy is a concern.

    I agree with you on most of the comments on the master bath. I will check with the designer to see what we can do.

    For external, it will be either brick plus fiber cement or brink plus EIFS. EIFS is being widely used in our area (Madison, WI) and many parade homes are built using EIFS. Some of them are million dollar houses.

    I have talked with two local buider and both said EIFS is ok. Still, I haven't made my decison yet.

    For the office, most likely we are going to switch the office and the screen porch so the office can be bigger, more private and the screen porch can bring more light to the dining room.

    As for the west sun, since our neighbor is very close to our house (only 16 feet away on one side), it will block most west sun shine in the summer. Besides, summer in Madison WI is not that hot. In the winter, I actaully want west sun coming in since the winter here is very long.

    Again, thanks for all the wondering points. I will post our updated floor plan early next week.

    Yan

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yan, ok, I'm back, with more information than you probably want to think about! Some of this is in addition to my other post, some is in place of it. Since you seem open to lots of ideas, I'm going to suggest many things since several aspects of your plan are similar to ours (although our lot is wide, and your east side is our front, with our entrance where your stair landing is). Lots of detail, but you can obviously choose to ignore it all if it doesn't suit how you live.

    Energy efficiency--

    1--You have 12" energy heel trusses, nice deep roof overhangs, and 2x6 exterior walls. You might want to consider doing the garage walls in 2x6s also. We did a thicker (ICF) wall for our house and garage here in Michigan, and even when the temperature outside was zero, our unheated garage never got below 50! The 2x6s won't do that well, but every little bit helps.

    2--Regarding fireplaces, the most energy efficient place to put it would be between two interior walls. We put a 2-sided Heat N Glo between our living room and dining room and have really enjoyed it from both sides. (I'd put yours in place of the west half-wall--you did say that you think of it as a hearth room!--and shorten or eliminate the other short wall). The other night when the power was off for 5 hours, we used some sort of built in override system and were able to heat both rooms with the fireplace, although we were not able to adjust its heat as we can when there is electricity.

    3--An HRV (or maybe ERV; not sure which in Wisconsin) should distribute the heat from whatever sun comes in your west and south windows. Our library has exterior walls on the SE and SW, and our living room's walls are SW and NW. I love the sun coming in in the winter, and both rooms are always comfortable. Now if I'm actually sitting where the sun is, it is warmer, but I designed both rooms to have walls blocking part of the sun so I'd have places to sit and enjoy the rooms. It really helps to plan your furniture arrangements as you decide where windows and doors go.

    4--Suntunnels (Solatubes, etc.) are much better for energy efficiency than skylights. We used Suntunnels by Velux; the rigid ones give more light than the flexible ones, and the TGR type looks better on the roof if it matters to you. We put one in the stairwell, one in the 2nd floor bathroom which has no windows, and two in the kitchen, since it has a 10'x20' porch across the front of it that blocks the light. I LOVE the light they bring in, and so does everyone who sees them. DH would rather not have ANY holes in the roof, but I insisted on these because light is so important!

    Symmetry (or, when do you give up form for function?)--

    1--A lot of architects and homeowners like symmetry. By putting the fireplace where I did, I removed the symmetry from 2 rooms. Since you have a Craftsman style house, you can have a more informal style without symmetry if you choose as long as there is balance.

    2--If the exterior door now goes out from what is now apparently the screened porch, I would change the symmetry of the French doors, since it makes it difficult to place furniture. If you want to keep the symmetry, you could put two 6-foot sets of French doors and have the two doors in the middle fixed, and the two end ones open. Then you could put a love seat in front of the fixed parts. Or you could just have one door operable at one end.

    Laundry/powder/mud/pantry/office suggestions--

    1--Move the pantry to the powder room location. Move the refrigerator to the west so there is room to cut a door through from the kitchen to the new pantry; make it a pocket door. Move the desk functions into the pantry under the window or into the new office, since it would just probably pile up with stuff where it was. Cut a counter- height 20"w x 36"h pass thru in the pantry wall on the mudroom side instead of a door. Extend the left wall of the new pantry to the mudroom wall, and move the laundry door onto the mudroom wall. Put a shallow cleaning closet on the laundry wall facing the kitchen wall. Move the cubbies to the back of the kitchen wall. Change the mudroom/garage door so it opens to the right.

    2--Move the 12'7" (new) office wall west 1'. Move the toilet and wash basin to the garage wall where the closet was, and make the powder room 5'x5' with the door on the south wall, opening into the powder room onto the back of the office wall. Move the closet opposite the powder room wall that has the door in it, so that the back of the closet is on the dining room wall. Have the door to the new office be between the closet and the powder room, and wall off the door into the dining room, if you want the office private from the rest of the house.

    3--Kitchen--Are you having a cooktop and separate oven, or will there be a range? Where will the microwave be?

    Some things to consider when planting trees as a screen, especially since you are so close to your neighbors--

    1--How big will the trees get? The sizes listed by nurseries are usually the height and width after TEN YEARS, and they don't stop growing! They will get much larger than you expect.

    2--The roots will get at least as wide as the tree canopy, so they will extend into any cracks that might occur at any time in your basement wall, and they will extend onto your neighbor's property where they may decide to plant something.

    3--The evergreens will make the rooms darker as they grow larger and block more of the sun.

    4--Most evergreens need full sun to look good. Yews will be about your only choice if there's a house on the east or west side blocking the sun and you only get full sun for 6-8 hours.

    I would definitely keep the windows in the master walk-in closet. Before we built our house, I visited LOTS of builders' homes in the Detroit 3-county area Parade of Homes, etc. I always disliked the larger WIC closets without a window, and liked the ones having a small window. Ours is 28" w x 42"h and 4' above the floor (9' ceiling). It's opposite the closet door as I walk in, and I LOVE not having to turn on the light during the day, seeing the sky and trees, having the light spill into the bathroom and bedroom, but still having privacy.

    A 4 in 12 slope for the roof seems shallow for Wisconsin since you get more snow than we do. My draftsman said the least he'd recommend was 6/12. Maybe it doesn't matter if the roof is in smaller sections, and their are no large trees around for leaves to collect.

    I designed our house from scratch, and had no previous experience. I bought and looked at lots of books, but two that I kept finding myself going back to for major concepts and practical applications were Patterns of Home: The Ten Essentials of Enduring Design by Max Jacobson, and Not So Big Solutions by Sarah Susanka. These might be helpful to you at this stage.

    IMO, your architect has done a very good job with your very limiting factors. One thing I found while designing our house was that every time I moved a wall even a couple of inches, it could have a huge impact on everything around it, which then had to be changed. I used a 3D Home Architect program. I assume from your print, that your architect can show you the 3-dimensional views of each room? If he hasn't, see if he can show you each room from the various entry points, so you can decide if that's how you want it.

    Also, there are online programs that will let you draw your plan and place your furniture. I don't know what they are, but maybe someone else can give you a link. Then you can see if the room sizes are ok, what you will be seeing when you are sitting down, etc.

    Anne

    Here is a link that might be useful: TGR style SunTunnels

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Anne:

    Thanks a lot for all the ideas. I am going to thinking of this all night. :)

    Two questions so far
    1) how much more expensive is ICF compared with 2by6 wall?
    2) What is the modal of the fireplace you are using? How much space it takes?
    Originally I was asking our designer to have a two way fireplace in the same location as you have suggested but I give up since it seems it will be quite large put between the living room and dining room.

    Thanks/Yan

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yan,

    I like the ideas about reversing office and screened porch. That will brighten your DR and give you more privacy for the office. (I don't know how you would run a solartube into the DR from the roof; isn't there a BR above the DR?)

    It looks like there is a roof over the (moved) screen porch that has one angle facing East. You could put a skylight in that angle to brighten both porch and DR. We have a skylight in the East angle of the roof on our screened porch; it keeps our DR and breakfast room bright in winter.

    One more porch thought: We have a sort of baseboard along the bottom of ours that is the same height as the bottom of the french doors. It looks nice...and it keeps our Westie from trying to attack squirrels through the screening.

    If you did move the fireplace to a position between LR and DR and had openings on both sides of the fireplace, that would also bring light into the DR and provide much-needed wall space to the LR. (If you're not crazy about formal dining rooms, you could also shrink this room a little.)

    I'd still like to create some jogs to break up that super-long hallway.

    I wasn't talking about making your entry *wider*, but wanted more room between the front door and the stair railings. Changing the door swing will help a little, but I sense a bottleneck there.

    I removed the windows in the walk-in closets because windows are expensive and 'daylight' flourescents provide even light. You can run those lights for many years for the cost of two windows. You may still prefer to have small windows if only for airflow.

    Ask a realtor, not a builder, about the possible disadvantages of EIFS. There is one EIFS house in a subdivision of about 60 houses near me. The house has changed hands three times, always selling for less than its comps. The present owner, a realtor, has now torn off the EIFS and replaced it with real stucco before putting it on the market.

    I agree about increasing the pitch on your roof. I went to U of W and I live in Chicagoland. You'll have fewer problems with a steeper roof.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cost of ICFs--not easy to answer. Around here, the people we've talked to who build ICF houses seem to be engineers or engineering types, do-it-yourselfers, the occasional builder, or people building million dollar plus houses. We were a combination of the first two. My husband (a perfectionist) and I were naively going to build it (stack the blocks) ourselves to save money. Fortunately, the Ohio company (outstanding customer service throughout our build) that sold us the ICF forms (Nudura, a Canadian product) introduced us to a guy who had helped build 6 other ICF houses. He and my husband did most of the work. His experience and attention to detail (he'd been a surveyor and his father was an architect, which I think accounted for this) saved us from MANY mistakes.

    We did ICFs to the top of the first floor. The cutting and stacking of the ICFs is the easy part. Using them also involves lifting LOTS of long pieces of rebar, lifting it over your head and threading it down through the rebar already laid in the forms--think weightlifting muscles! Then you have to be sure the forms are well-supported (we had to rent special braces for this) before the concrete is poured, or the walls won't come out straight. You have to get the windows and doors located exactly right--no changes once the concrete is poured.

    During the years when we were deciding how to build our house, we saw a DIY ICF house that was so bad, I didn't even want to consider doing ours with ICFs. We saw one done up to the top of the 2nd floor that had been built by a guy who DH considered having build ours. I could see some potential problems with how that builder had done his, so I was still lukewarm. However, those we saw that were done by owner-builder engineers (or people whose whole life seemed to be oriented toward paying attention to detail), or small builders who only did a few high quality ICF houses, were usually quite well done. DH went over several times to watch a multi-million dollar ICF house being built by a crew of 8-14 guys who only did ICF houses. So the cost depends on who does it, and their level of expertise.

    Additional ICF-created expenses--

    --extended window jambs (our ICFs had 6" of concrete, 2-5/8" of the insulating foam on each side for a total of 11-1/4" thick wall)--we didn't get extended window jambs, since I wanted drywall returns, but DH had to do LOTS of extra work to get the windows ready for drywall,

    --drilling various sized holes through concrete for HVAC, plumbing, electrical ducts, conduits, etc.,

    --paying subs extra who don't want to work with an unfamiliar product,

    --paying extra to subs who have to figure out how to correct things that were not thought of prior to pouring concrete,

    --paying subs extra to do their part right if any part of the wall is not straight and affects their work,

    Under normal conditions both as owner-builders and ICF builders, we would have had a very difficult time finding subs to do some of our work. Some of the subs we talked to wouldn't even bid our job because they'd had a bad experience, or heard of others having negative experiences, with uneven ICF walls. Because of the terrible economy here, we were able to hire the subs of two builders we used as consultants who wanted to keep their guys busy. The plus side for them is that now they can say they worked on an ICF house if they have the opportunity to bid such a job. Also, they said ours was the straightest ICF wall they'd ever seen!

    So, how much did it cost relative to 2x6? I have no idea. I absolutely love our house, the wonderful comfort level, and the much lower heating bills. But because my husband paid the guys hourly (even I know better than to do that!) to build the ICF wall, and he analyzes and talks about every detail ad infinitum while everyone else has to stand around and listen to him (they're being paid, but not working!), our ICFs definitely cost us more!

    My husband absolutely insists that ICFs are the best way to do any basement, IF you have a knowledgeable ICF contractor. As to whether to do the first floor with ICFs, you'd need time to sort through the various things that need to be done differently or a general contractor experienced with ICFs, subs who are flexible and willing to work with an unfamiliar system, and money for the unforeseen!

    A couple of other energy efficient things:

    --We put 2" of XPS foam sheets (I think I've got the correct letters!) under the concrete in the basement for extra insulation.

    --It's better to not use fiber glass batt insulation in the walls because it creates convective loops reducing its effectiveness, and its been tested to show that as the temperatures get colder outside, the R rating is much lower than it is at a higher temperature.

    Our 2-sided Heat N Glo fireplace is ST-HV-IPI and fits a 48" width opening that is 2' deep. Our finished fireplace is 6' wide and has multi-colored Indian slate up to the 9' ceiling. We love it! I would make your dining room 13'6" wide, with the dining room fireplace NW corner touching the SE corner of the (new) screened porch wall, and get rid of the other half wall. Since that makes the fireplace stick out into the living room, I'd put a bookcase to the left of it.

    Is there a good view from any part of the living room west wall, or do you see the neighbor's house? If you only see the neighbor's house, I think I'd put a series of higher windows all along that wall to bring in the sunlight. This would also give you more flexibility in furniture arrangement. Even though our lot is bigger than yours, there are a couple of houses that I wanted to avoid looking at. So I went out to the lot, marked out the walls for my unfinished plan, and figured out where my seating would be. Then I thought about where to put the windows, what sizes they should be, and where I would be able to plant trees.

    Screened porch vs sunroom. If I had a beautiful view with natural sounds in a peaceful setting, extra space in the house, and extra money, I'd do the screened porch. How many months do you estimate you'd use a screened porch? Since you'll already have paid for the expensive part--the foundation and roof, and since the view seems to be the side of the neighbor's house, it seems like a sunroom where it can be used year round, possibly as a playroom for your daughter, might make more sense.

    Anne

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm sure somebody is going to say, "oh ICF costs $X per square foot and that's twice [or pick a multiplier] as much as doing 2x6." What they don't say is that usually they didn't include the cost of materials/labor for insulation in the 2x6 build, nor that the insulation is not nearly as good as ICF, nor that it is almost impossible to caulk/tape/etc to make stick-built as airtight [draft-free] as ICF, nor do they allow for the difference in cost of future heating/cooling... and with energy prices poised for the stratosphere, it's only smart to consider future costs as part of the equation.

    I am glad Anne pointed out the potential problems, with crew being a really big problem in many areas. OTOH, ICF manufacturers do seem to be making a golden reputation for providing customer service.

    Emphasis should be on having ALL structural decisions made *before* laying the first ICF block. This is one form of building where you really shouldn't have any last-minute tweaks, and all electrical, communication, water, sewage, and HVAC lines must be planned firmly before the blocks are built.

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    To keep your laundry on main floor I'd add a LIFT from the master bath down to the laundry room........would save time and your back : )
    Some were mentioning about the stairs, here is an idea that really opens up the entrance and you could add a message area at the entrance too.
    I played with the kitchen a bit......giving you a larger pantry, not sure if you use a freezer but put a space for one that could be shelves too. Changed it with the pwd room, closer to the garage door and kitchen pathways.
    Just a few ideas : )
    HTH
    {{gwi:1423168}}
    {{gwi:1423169}}

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Saskatchewan_girl, thanks a lot for two great suggestions. I especially like the new stairs since that will leave more space for the loft and also will look much better. :) I will check with the designer tomorrow to see if we can do that.

    Anne, my admire to you and your husband to have the courage to build the house using ICF. I am an engineer too (Software engineer) but I don't think I get the guts to build ours using ICF. Here in Madison, Wi, I haven't seen a single parade house built with ICF. Some of them are above 1 Million. All are using stick built. From my research, many other contries no longer built house using stick built. Too bad, ICF is not as popular as it should be around here.

    Chisue, thanks for the suggestions for baseboard and the location of the skylight. Most likely I am going to use Suntunnels as suggested instead of skylight for energy efficiency.

    By the way, just get the rough estimate from our builder and this will cost about $420,000 plus lot $125,000. Anyone thinks this is a fair price. :)

    Once again, thanks for suggestions from everyone and I will post update once we have more progress on the house.

    Yan

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Melody nva, thanks for emphasizing the points about ICFs; they are all positive reasons we decided to use them and our house is WONDERFUL because of them. A couple of more points for anyone else reading this who might be considering using ICFs:

    --The company we bought ours from has a list of subs who build with ICFs, so you don't necessarily have to find someone yourself, depending on your supplier.

    --melody's point about the insulation already being there as part of the wall is a good one. Once the walls are up, you're ready to run the electrical. Electricians we talked to were initially somewhat apprehensive about how to do this using a small chain saw (the heavier way to do it!) or a "heat knife" which was easy after the first few tries. (For energy efficiency and moisture reasons, you really don't want heating ducts on the outside walls.) With most other insulation methods, there will be insulation gaps around or behind the electrical boxes unless you do it yourself. Most subs aren't that careful, in spite of what they promise you, as we found out in double checking our 2nd floor ceilings and 2x6 dormer walls. With the ICFs, you have the solid 2-5/8" deep foam insulation on the OUTSIDE of the concrete, in addition to what's not cut away on the inside 2-5/8" of insulation.

    Yan, some more thought on things you might want to consider:

    --SunTunnel location to add light to the dining room--With the TGR model, you can use a longer SunTunnel of 18' for one with a 14" diameter (or 14" with a 10" diameter). We ran ours through the 2nd floor bedroom closet, built small walls around it on all sides, and insulated these walls. You would lose some closet space, so you'd need to decide if this compromise is worth it to get the light. Also, your designer will have to tell you where it could come out on the roof. You could also do one into the screened porch/sunroom.

    --Basements--From looking at the stairs to your garage and patio, it seems like you have a sloped lot. If so, you are lucky, and I would absolutely do as many windows as possible on the east and west basement walls. If you don't have enough height for regular windows, do glass block ones. My daughter's house is only 30' wide, but she has three 12"h x 30"w glass block windows on each side made with 6"x6" blocks, and it really makes a difference when walking down into her basement. In our house, in addition to our larger basement windows, we also have two 12"h x 36" wide glass block windows using 12"x12" (Pittsburgh Decora) glass block (one's in the bathroom). It costs more (not a lot compared to other building expenses)and looks great, so it was worth it to us.

    --Many designers and builders don't put much thought into the interior basement walls and systems if it is not going to be finished at the time of the build, or if customers talk about cutting cost (which most of us do ;).) If you haven't already discussed this, I would think about an overall possible layout. This would include a possible bathroom, kitchen/bar, guest bedroom (needs a legal egress sized window), etc. Then, have the necessary plumbing and windows put where they will work best, and have the supporting steel poles located to coincide with where you think interior walls might go.

    --Furniture placement (again!)--What will be in your dining room besides the table and chairs, a buffet? If so, will it go along the north wall? Which way would your table go? Working this out should let you know how to adjust the dining room walls to give or take space in other rooms.

    Anne

    Here is a link that might be useful: Pittsburgh 12

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I love it! The only suggestion I have is to try to close off the upstairs toilet for privacy so 2 people can use the bathroom at the same time.