Aw darn..I just missed meeting you by a few minutes. I wanted to get home and start planting. People traded and chatted,I brought a map so we know where others are located, some left before lunch. Some locked up their cars and went to sit on the benches for lunch. I'm thinking for the fall swap we begin by meeting at lunch time and then do the swap so folks have more time to arrive. Hope you'll come back for the fall swap. I hear there will be lots more (although there sure were plenty of plants) since what is seedling now will be mature to share then. Would that work better?

saphire, I'm going to disagree here a bit. In my experience as having hundreds of builders for clients they most certainly do get emotionally attached to their properties. The smaller the builder, as in those building less than a half-dozen homes/year, the more likely he/she has emotional involvement come time to sell. To the small builder, the homes they build are often dream homes in their minds. They put their heart & soul into some of these properties. They bring their 'dream' to me sketched on the back of an envelope & squabble about why I 'need' plans & specs before granting them the construction loan. Their response is almost universally, "Why? Can't you SEE this house is worth every penny of the loan amount I need?!" They are builders not business people. I've teased many a builder...sitting in front of my desk wanting to know if they should accept an offer...that they are too proud of their "erection" & need to take a couple steps backwards. :) To hear you or another potential buyer comment that you don't like something they've chosen to put in the house is insulting to them because you aren't seeing 'their' dream. It takes small builders longer to come around to changed market conditions than it does lenders. Eventually, his lender will give him a hard nudge towards seeing the 'light' & refuse to grant another construction loan until he sells something... Since the builder wants nothing more than to get moving with his next dream...that is the point at which a potential buyer finds negotiating with these guys the easiest. Small builders uniformly, in my experience, lose interest in a project at about the 65% complete stage &, in fact, pushing them to reach 100% is like pulling teeth with a string & a doorknob! They've got another sketch they want me to look at..... Market conditions now should be such that even these small builders are ready to negotiate. Oh, another reason they lose interest is because even though they're not supposed to...they live on their construction loans. They draw out profit as the build progresses. One way, or another...they ALL manage to sneak their cable bill into the draws! By the time they reach the point in construction you're describing they have little motivation because they've already pulled out most of the profit they expected anyway. They don't have the same enthusiasm for their lender getting their money back as they do for building their dream & getting those draws. I love small builders. They have hearts of gold & are 'salt of the earth' type of people, usually. That's the biggest reason I love construction lending...the builders themselves are just great/fun people. But, don't kid yourself...they DO get emotionally involved. /tricia

Karla, I do think we share a similar viewpoint.as for new car shopping? Good grief, Id rather stick a hot poker in my eye. But you can bet, when I do bite the bullet and buy a new car, I go preparedhomework done, cell phone in hand complete with a list of my dealers competition. Oh, and I always pay cash but I dont let them know that until the final number is reached. Rich69, The lending climate of the last decade has changed dramatically. The ability of banks to move loans off their books into the secondary market means you can't necessarily trust the old adage "Well the bank wouldn't lend me the money, if they didn't think I could pay it back." Also, banks will provide you with heaps of disclosure and truth-in-lending statements...at the closing table. You'll want to know the ins and outs of your loan before you sign a purchase contract which is long before you reach settlement. I am going to copy a post written on this forum last year by a wise head named TriciaE. She has a very balanced and realistic view of the real estate market. I think the subtext is that the old pre-2000 buying rules of thumb are still valid. Its not a bad lens through which to view your loan decision: Posted by TriciaE Nov 13, 2005 - "I've been lurking around this Forum for a long time to get a feel for what's happening around the country. My hubby is head of lending for a major regional bank and I was both a residential loan officer, a construction loan officer, and a commercial loan officer for the better part of fifteen years (although that's been a while ago now). My hubby and I met when I interviewed for a job with him. So much for basics...we've both made our living with real estate. My hubby is also an attorney. As to the question whether real estate can go down...that's really, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but it's true...a silly question. Of course, real estate can go down and does so substantially. When you look at it over the long haul, it always rises (same as equities) but in a shorter time-frame prices fluctuate considerably due to any number of factors (employment, interest rates, inflation/deflation in the general economy, war, market saturation, over supply of inventory, etc.). Are we in a bubble today? SOME areas of the country are showing definite signs of being inflated. But, like politics, ALL real estate markets are LOCAL. Even during the huge downturn in the late 1980's there were some markets unaffected. Second home markets normally tank first (coastal properties may hold out longer than mountain/lake properties but even beach homes can and DO go down in price). In New England, from 1988-1992...home prices dropped, on average, about 35%; home sites dropped 50%; and condos dropped 60-75% in value. There was simply way too much inventory. That's a little different in today's market. Builders's are not putting up the spec homes they did then so inventory of new homes is in much smaller supply. Lenders learned a lesson and don't provide the huge subdivision construction loans with 50-100 specs anymore. The lack of new homes to meet demand has, in part, fueled the inflation of the re-sell market. Also, immigration of high tech workers, medical, and other higher paying workers from countries like India has played a roll. These new immigrants need a home and they have money. Most of these jobs are concentrated on both coasts. Real estate being purchased as a primary home should not be purchased with the idea of flipping it to make a huge profit...speculative real estate should be reserved for additional properties after one has secured their primary residence. To do otherwise is a good way to end up on the street...if you buy too much home for your income and the market cycles downward you can't sell and get out whole. Just ask thousands of folks who experienced that reality in 1990 around the country. With the change in the BK laws, the potential for disaster in this country is HUGE right now. Many, many people have purchased at the top of their ability to pay, others have refinanced several times taking out equity to purchase non-durable goods, and others have financed on either ARM's or interest-only mortgages. This is a clasic recipe for disaster. Is it a good time to buy? That depends on your situation. Sometimes, there's simply no choice. It also depends on your location. For example, right now...buying in the Gulf area is probably a good short-term investment...MAYBE? Real estate is always a risk if you are buying for investment. Most people, in the US, buy houses as homes and intend to live there for a while. In that case, it doesn't matter what happens...unless you are forced to sell during a down-turn market. That's when the snowball starts to roll. So, we are watching closely unemployment numbers, BK filings, retail sales numbers, energy cost increases...everything that will affect a homeowner's ability to make those high mortgage payments. Right now, things don't look too pretty. The numbers point to people reaching their cap on ability to pay. Sooner or later, they will be forced to sell and look for more inexpensive property. Timing this, however, is as difficult as timing a stock market peak or bottom...back to the local issue. Bottom line is that if you're looking to purchase a home for your family and anticipate living there for 10+ years...you'll most likely be fine although times might be depressing for a few years as prices fluctuate. If you're thinking buying a house will perform better than your 401(k) has the past three years...I'd be rethinking my concepts. My hubby tells me many people, across the country, back in 2001-2003 cashed out their 401(k)'s in disillusionment and bought real estate instead. They are using money they would have put in their 401(k) to make the mortgage payment on these McManions we see all over the place. Those people have taken a large risk...both short-term and in their retirement planning. When will prices go down? Bottom line is "Yes, but who knows when?" You could wait another five years hoping...Or, by spring we could see drops across the country. There are just too many unknowns to time things that close. I do know lenders are gearing up for a higher volume of defaults...tightening credit standards, eliminating more risky financing options, etc. for their own protection. Credit card defaults are currently at all-time highs and foreclosures are close behind as we are discussing this issue. These are not positive signs for our economy. We also have a new Fed Chairman early next year...many think they know what he'll do but we won't know for sure until he does it...will he continue to tighten, stop, or lower? Also, and this is important...watch the spread of short- term to long-term treasuries. The spread has been narrowing for some time now. You, probably, already know that there's no incentive to buy a long CD 'cause you can get almost the same rate just going out 8-15 months. Historically, when the short and long T-bills converge recession is on the horizon. Again, this is another indicator of what's actually happening in the economy. There will always be good deals on real estate. Families' circumstances change and, sometimes, people are just forced to sell. If you're in the right place at the right time...well I'd always rather be lucky than good anyday. But, as more and more people are forced to sell because of economic reasons...that increases inventory...which pushes prices down...supply/demand scenario. That's visible in some markets now. Others are still rising...like Dutchess County, NY. That market has not slowed either in DOM or price. Dutchess County is becoming a suburb for NYC as people are forced out of Westcester Co due to prices and/or taxes. So, if you're looking for a home in this market...probably might as well just bite the bullet and buy...prices aren't going down anytime soon. So we can argue whether prices will drop all day long...and most everybody will be right in one way or another. It just depends on where you are. If you live in an area dependent on one primary employer...and that company folds...well, just ask Seattle in the 70's what can happen. In my area, things looked bleak earlier this summer when the Groton Submarine Base showed up on Rumsfeld's closing list. They are a major contributor to our local economy. Predictions of doom were everywhere. But, the base was removed from the closure list by the Committee and now everybody's pretty upbeat about our local potential. If you live in an area where military facilities are going to be substantially increased due to this reshuffle of assets, prices should continue to rise. Bottom line...each of us has own our reality depending on where we live. There's no point in arguing since everybody has the potential to be wrong/correct. Watch the national economy but also really learn what's happening locally. Even after 911...some parts of the economy boomed (example: things pertaining to the "nesting" factor like home furniture, gardening, etc. as Americans focused on home and hearth). "

It's hard to compare - because most DIY'ers are going to shop at big box stores and find cheap materials. While a contractor is most likely going to use a professional drop ceiling installer, and their recommended products. And most are going to mark up the material as well, as they are the ones handling and coordinating. Again, I can't comment whether or not it is 'high' as I do not know the specifics of what they are quoting. But I would assume that if you are trying to compare Home Depot pricing to a contractor bid, it will most likely seem high.