If I had to put money on which true Cedrus are the hardiest I would put it on the ones at Purdue. They have been there the longest and are the least protect of any older trees in zone 5. The issues with Stenacoma is that it is sometimes sold as a seedling type and other a grafted cultivar so there are variations in those plants. After that I would go with Eisregen or Karl Fuchs and Eugene. Eugene in located in central indiana so it is not protected like Spring Grove. Based on the information from Eugene Who introduced it, it should be very Hardy. I also had a collector in Indianapolis who said he Rates Eisregen the hardiest followed by Karl Fuchs and then Stenacoma. As far as understock goes, Bob Fincham has always said deodara is perfectly hardy in zone 5 for that use and produces a better root system is my understanding. I have had Karl Fuchs 5-6 years ago from Accorn and it has done very well. I also have a small Eugene David David

I am taking your advice and going to do the HVAC on my own. I've had 2 authorized dealers take a look so far. Will have 2 more. I've gotten one proposal back and the second guy will do one but his will be time-consuming and I hesitate to have him put a lot of work into the proposal when I'm still interviewing others. He said he would not be happy if he didn't get the job. I can't promise he'd be the one. NOTE: No load calculations were ever done on this house for heat or AC. I just learned this yesterday - 1 year into the job. The second AC dealer wants to do load calculations but, as I said, we've come so far and have limitations. Would it be worth his time? The first proposal goes like this: Remove incorrect air handlers and install 2 Trane variable speed Hyperion AH 2 Trane 2-stage SL16i condensers install Honeywell control system - digital programmable with WIFI replace all flex ducts on 2nd floor (I believe they're 6 or 7") with new 10" round flex with larger difusers Install 2nd return in ceiling on 2nd floor, redo existing return ducts The total cost of all this is $14,650. He also proposed installing a secondary heat source. We have Viega radiant heat panels in the floors but there is some concern that it will be adequate given the level of quality of the HVAC work and a poor experience with the electrical sub. There are 4 options for supplementary heat proposed: 1. Hot water coils in the AHs: $3400 2. Electric heaters: $700 plus cost of running electric lines 3. Carrier Heat pump (would mean using carrier equipment, not Train) $2900on top of AH price 4. Carrier Infinity 20 greenspeed heat pump - $5400 on top of AH price I have no specific model numbers from him - I suppose he doesn't want me to be able to compare prosals directly. Any reactions?

Tigerdunes - it isn't really fair to just use the low end rate. For DavidCary What's not fair? The country is awash in nat gas and at this moment we are on the low end of nat gas pricing. Do you have a crystal ball that tells you future pricing of oil and nat gas? Now electric rates are an entirely different matter. They are regulated and prices are not marketplace driven like nat gas and oil. And yes I do include oil although the marketplace seems rigged. Electric rates continue on an upward rise and usually way above inflation rates. Surprised that most citizens have not raised hexx about it. As I've said in the past, I have a DF system so this is something I know a little about. And making a comparison between fuel operating costs. Last heating season, I estimate I used about 50 therms for heat while my Trane HP did the yeomans work practically the whole season. The leverage between the fuels has all but disappeared. Now if nat gas prices take a sharp rise, then that would change the metrics altogether. Just in the equipment side, Carrier's Greenspeed seems to be the leader in new HP technology. Not certain what the demand is for those condensers either in a DF or all electric configuration. Of course everyone in the industry was watching carefully the Hallowell story. The promises seemed much greater than the reliability and results. And we know what happened to them. And finally, you seem to question my methodology. I used. a COP of 3 which I believe to be both generous and realistic. If one over promises, usually disappointment occurs especially if one is looking for a ROI which I think is generally a poor approach in justifying new HVAC with high efficiency. Let's face it. HVAC is a necessary evil. You want to be cool in the summer and warm in the winter. I would like to see a more balanced approach that can justify both reliability and longevity. IMO

I'm in the LA area too and I've been trying to replace my broken down 3.5 ton condenser. Unfortunately, I've been stuck doing too much research (analysis paralysis), but I've learned a lot. My house is 1430 sqft, long wall faces east and gets the hot afternoon sun, I'm on a raised foundation with crawl space, insulation R25 in attic, hardwood floors, no insulation in walls, double pane windows, built in 1952, 3 bd, 2 ba, etc. You need to get someone to do a load calculation (Manual J) which takes into account your insulation in the attic, insulation in the walls, insulation in the crawl space, sqft of windows facing east/west/south/north, sqft walls facing east/west, sqft of doors, type of floor, volume of your house, sqft of house, temperatures that you want to set inside the house in winter/summer, climate in your area, number of people in house, number of appliances, etc. All these factors determine your cooling needs in the summer and your heating needs in the winter. Or you can learn how to do this yourself at http://loadcalc.net I would guesstimate that no insulation in the attic, no insulation on the walls, no insulation under the floor, and drafty old windows probably raises your cooling needs to close to 5-tons. A 5-ton condenser and matching furnace are a lot more expensive to run/operate than a 3-ton system. I ran the numbers on my house and my cooling needs were a little over 4 tons without attic insulation and without wall insulation. I have R25 in the attic and I'm adding R15 wall insulation as I type this message and my cooling needs went down to a little under 3 tons (at 35.5k BTUs). So, my wall and attic insulation reduced my cooling needs by 1-ton (a little over 12k BTUs). I think the attic insulation makes more of a difference than the the wall insulation, so I recommend that you get that done asap. It really helps. Now, getting back to equipment. I've been following the advice on this forum not to get low end equipment. This advice has taken me in a two month quest for a reasonably priced mid-level equipment from a good company (Trane, American Standard, Rheem), but I'm having trouble finding it. The best quotes I've gotten are for Amana and Lennox. The most expensive are for Trane, AS, and Rheem. Goodman is very popular probably because of the price. They have good warranty, but the equipment is not well regarded in this forum. Almost everyone says it's better to get a great installer with low end equipment than high-end reliable equipment with a bad installer. I think I met two really bad installers and two good installers. It's a feeling, but it's hard to know for sure. Some dealers send their salesperson to talk to you, so you never meet the installer. One way to protect yourself is to get a permit. In my area, this ensures that the refrigerant level is checked to make sure it's appropriate for your system. That's all the permit does in my city. Another way to protect yourself is to qualify for rebates. The rebates from So Cal Edison require an outside inspector to inspect/test your ducts and install. The problem with rebates is that it costs more money to pay for these tests and the installers/dealers build in a markup when you try to get rebates. I got quotes with rebates from Lennox and Rheem and both were in the $9500 range with the possibility to get about $2700 in rebates. It's scary trying to qualify for the rebates because you might have to pay additional fees in repairs in order to meet the requirements of the rebates. Now that I've written a book on this topic, my advice to you is to get a load calculation done and see what your heating and cooling needs are. Figure out if it's worth getting the attic insulation to cut down on equipment size. Remember that it's more expensive to run a 5-ton system than a 3-ton system of equal SEER. Oversized equipment might cause your system to short-cycle which may be bad for the equipment. In So Cal, we really need the a/c and not the heater so much. So, matching a 5-ton a/c condenser with the right 5-ton 2000 CFM blower in a furnace will result in an oversized furnace. Your heating needs are probably 3-tons 36K BTUs without insulation, but you are putting a 100K BTU furnace in order to get the matching blower in the furnace to blow the cooling air at the right speed. Also, 3-ton equipment is cheaper than 5-ton equipment. So, the savings in equipment price and the operational savings can probably pay for your attic insulation. I'm paying $1600 to insulate all my outside walls. I insulated my attic myself using encapsulated batts from Home Depot. I might have to pay a little extra fill in some of the attic areas that I didn't do such a great job on. I'm talking to the wall insulators about doing this extra work for a small fee. I want them to blow some loose cellulose into those areas that need it. Okay, you might not have finished reading all this, but see my other posts on price and equipment. I researched 3-ton systems.