What brands are you looking at for the range? You said you don't bake but do you think if you have this extra oven it will inspire you to start baking or do you view it as an additional oven where you'll be able to roast more items at once? I think if you figure out what you want to do in that oven it will then be easier to figure the brands and features that will fit your needs. I love your post by the way - it made me laugh :-)

I have not settled on a brand for the 36-inch range yet, but the ones I'm looking at are all pretty similar. All-gas, and the oven is very basic, "standard" or "convection" is about the only choice, and while they are large in width x depth (about 26'' x 26''), they are not very large in height (about 13''). The decision here is simply whether to spend $1,000+ more for a model with the convection oven. What does "convection" bring to the party?

As for the second oven, my initial idea was to have room for roasted/baked sides, desserts, broiling jobs, etc while the primary oven is roasting the main meat. I'd also thought it would be nice to have a "cute little oven" for cute little jobs, although I realize the Hello Kitty approach to buying appliances has drawbacks.

The second oven could be electric, so I'd have one electric oven and one gas oven if that matters - I have no idea why it would, but there must be some reason why people pay extra for dual-fuel ranges. I'd like to get into baking bread, and have this vision of fresh-baked rustic loaves emerging from oven #2 right when crusty roast beast emerges from oven #1 - to general applause, of course.

I think I'd like the second oven to at least hold a couple of half sheet pans, in stacked racks. I don't have a large kitchen, so I do need to conserve space a bit. By the way, I am not fixed on the second oven being a traditional wall-mount type. If a countertop model works, I could consider that - it would simplify the cabinetry a bit.

I'm browsing the AJ Madison site, looking at 24'' wall ovens (not saying it has to be 24'', I just started there).

I see what seem like pretty normal gas and electric ovens. But some say they have "true European convection" (?). I see ''infrared gas broil''. "Speed" ovens that have microwaves. "Steam ovens", with and without convection. Some have "halogen lights". There are electronic keypads with 17 modes, and there are round dials. In total there are 51 different models - and that's just the 24'' size.

Looking at countertop ovens, I even found one with a built-in water sprayer.

Really baffling.

Well if money is not of concern you could get a Lacanche cluny and do one gas and one electric :-) For bread, I believe electric gives the best results. When dual fuel ovens started coming out I recall reading that people had decided electric was better for ovens and gas was better for range tops. I personally don't agree with this idea. I think electric is good for baking and gas is good for roasting, etc. I don't have a convection option (yet) but I have heard a lot of people say they are very happy with how their food is turning out using convection. You'll probably find people who say they hate it too! But if you don't feel it's important, I wouldn't put the money into it. I don't know if they make a countertop electric oven that isn't convesction - I've only seen them as convection.

24" wall ovens aren't worth the bother. Almost all of the current models have an interior cavity comparable with a large or medium sized countertop oven. I wouldn't look at anything that takes less than a full sized baking sheet.

The big difference between using gas and electric is that gas, because it's direct combustion, is a moister environment, and without convection more hot and cool spots. You can make an electric oven moist by using a bain marie, or putting a ramekin of water in the oven. Electric ovens generally have better temperature control, at least the high end ones. For that reason, since you'll have a big gas oven, I recommend an electric oven as a good complement.

For hors d'oeurves as well as cookies, an accurate, electric convection oven gives you fabulous consistency, and ease of use. The very top for accuracy and consistency are Gaggenau and Miele. Perfectly decent ovens can be had for a lower price (Bosch, Thermador, Monogram seem to be popular choices here). Go too far down the scale and you get a much wider variation of temperature. They'll still work--you can cook in anything that'll heat up--but the whole point is getting something reliable and accurate.

Convection can be very worthwhile. There are other settings and features which might appeal to you about one particular oven or another, but that's very personal. The really important part is consistency and accuracy.

I would want convection most in the gas range oven, because I find it most useful for roasting meat, which I understand is better in the gas. I bake a lot in my electric convection ovens, and rarely use convection for baked goods, and always for roasting.

Performance/accurate temps are #1. My Monogram does a temperature averaging thing, which I'm not sure I like that much.

I like a probe, but again, that's for roasting meat, so would hope for that in the range.

True European Convection refers to the number of fans, I believe, and the movement of air and heat, and I wouldn't bother with electric convection unless it had it. I had a JennAir range with convection at one time, but not 'True European,' and it wasn't worth the extra $$.

The other thing you might want to pay attention to, especially if considering an oven smaller than 30", is the interior size...USABLE interior size, not just the claimed cubic feet. Rack size and cavity height can be important, especially if you want to do a few side dishes or want to keep several dishes warm on multiple racks for a special occasion meal. I'm not sure a half-sheet pan would fit in any but a 30"?

The thing is, to get a really great performing oven, you probably have to get an oven with more features than you need, but it's nice to have the options when they'll serve you.

Another note: Bosch put out an oven with a pretty good reputation for a number of years, but the one out now is a whole new model, not based on the older ovens. It's bigger and has more features, but no track record yet, or chance to have any 'bugs' worked out. That may have been an unfair reason to count it out, but after having to replace 2 ovens, that scared me off, as I wanted something I could be more assured would not have problems. I'm just not a person who wants to try a new model in its first year.

Johnliu, you must be browsing the 24" Bertazzoni which has the IR broil and the option of the convection fan being on or off.

Somewhere else on this forum, I learned a lot about the Euro style, which in the ranges does not have really large ovens, except when the stove is a big one, and then the over grows a little.

You mentioned wanting a couple half sheets in the oven, and to me that says a convection option is appropriate.
I already have two ovens, one a Sharp convection and then a really small microwave for quick jobs. I look forward to having a Bertazzoni 24" gas range with their small gas oven, which should totally transform my cooking style.
Good luck choosing.

Thanks! I am still unclear about convection. What does convection do when roasting meat? Does it result in faster cooking, better browning, more moistness? And what about when baking whatever it is that I would bake if I baked? What difference will convection make?

Also, what about the ovens that let you assault your food with the combined might of heat, microwaves, and light? I think they are called "speed ovens", which sounds awesome. Everyone knows you can never be too rich or too thin, but can you ever be too fast? Would so much speed be wasted on a (non-thin, non-rich) plodder like me?

Speed ovens are "multi Assualt devices" They give you a choice to just microwave--with the conventional microwave functions. They can just bake or convection bake, much like a larger oven, but obiously due to size, they can handle smaller items only. Due to the size, they preheat faster than most large ovens. The big advantage is what they call the "Speed Cooking" A large potatoe or yam typically takes about 55 minutes in my 30" oven (10 minute preheat and then 45 minutes of baking). In the speed oven it takes about 12.5 minutes, (5 minute preheat and 7.5 minute bake)(because it is baking and microwaving the potato at the same time). Since the elements are smaller, they also use less electricity when they run, and if you speed cook, they also run for shorter times. We see predominately 3 ovens in this Catagory, The Advantium which uses Halogen lamps to heat, The Electrolux, which uses side burners, and a burner on top along with convection (if you choose) to cook. The Electrolux will not broil but has grill Roast and bake pushbuttons on it's display. The Miele seems to have a bit of a smaller oven cavity, but it does have the ability to broil.
You will see many reviews of these ovens here, and they seem to be "Catching on" as folks that originally had intended just to buy a microwave, and instead purchased a speed oven, and quite a few say, that they now use it more than their regular ovens----cept for that which wont fit, of course. Couple posters even said it did the best pizza they had ever done, and another bragged about the chicken she did in it----alto I do think the pizza is a bit of a -----------stretch.
These speed ovens, have similar programs that Miele uses in it's larger ovens, that most large ovens dont.Miele calls it "Master Chef", I dont think Electrolux or The Advantium have any particular name for the program.
Electrolux for example just has a button for "Program Cooking" and another one for "Recipes"---134 built in.
For a rookie like me and a forgetful one at that, I find it handy to be able to tell the oven cook me 2 taters and it sets the time and temp, but you only have to use the program if you choose to.
We have the Electrolux Icon speed oven and love it, We do our broiling outside or could even do it on our large oven, so the fact it doesnt broil doesnt bother us.
Good luck on the Hunt.
PS These MUST BE 220-240 Volt---NOT 120 to really function as an Oven.
Gary

What convection does is blows the hot air around so that you don't have hot and cold spots in the oven. The really good kind of convection, I've been told, has a heater in the fan so that the air doesn't lose its heat while it's blowing. There are some dishes that convection isn't appropriate for.

Gas ovens tend to be more uneven in heat, though I don't know how well the better ranges have dealt with that other than adding convection. I haven't any personal experience with gas convection ovens. For some reason it just doesn't seem right to me, but that's based purely on emotion and intangible feelings about the way the world ought to be, rather than reality. If I have to analyze it, I suppose I equate burning fuel directly with simplicity, whether it's coal, wood or gas.

In an oven like my Gaggenau (electric), convection allows you to put in several trays of cookies, hors d'oeurves, etc., in all at once, and have them all cook properly. But then my favorite thing (in my mother's Gagg--mine is new) is that year after year, tray after tray, the same thing goes in at the same temperature for the same amount of time and always comes out perfectly. Some people prefer the interaction with their ovens, opening, checking, turning, worrying, checking. I have a lot of people to feed, and I'd rather just put it in, get on with my work, take it out, get on with my work. But that's the quality of the oven, not the convection.

A speed oven might be what you need for your secondary built in. Do check what everyone says about the different things they cook in them. Some are better for cooking, others for baking. Some are meant to be used without the MW, some aren't. That is, some do MW only, Speed (MW plus IR), or Convection oven only (just IR). (I think it's IR--radiant heat, anyway.) I think some only do MW only or Speed.

What convection does nicely for roasting meat...browning and searing the outside more quickly for keeping the inside moist and pink...Is not what I want for a lot of my baked goods. Things that rise don't want a quickly cooked crust, or they can't rise nicely (rise is impeded or has to unattractively break through the crust). I also find that convection can over brown and dry the outside of breads, rolls, pies, etc. But it does work nicely, as Plllog described, for multiple racks of appetizers and cookies...Things that aren't thick and don't really rise.

Whether or not you will take advantage of speed depends on what you're cooking and the time you have available. I enjoy the cooking experience and plan ahead for things that will take time...and can do that since I'm home most days...so fast cooking isn't one of my particular needs, or something I'd benefit from.

For roasting stuff like you mentioned, you don't need a high-performance oven.

Bread is another story.

I've recently perfected the artisan-style loaf I regard as perfect using a preheated stone and a pan of water for steam. But the loaf gets spots on top crust that are too dark, so the flavor is not optimal there. I can't fix this because if I bake for shorter period or lower temperature, the rest of the crust and crumb are subpar.

I'm at a friend's house once a week who has a convection oven. If I par-bake in my own oven, then finish with convection in hers, the loaf is perfect. I've cooked a lot of meals with convection in her oven, and love it. I certainly want convection when I get a new oven.

Now that I bake bread, I can see the big deal about steam. If you never bake bread, I'm sure steam is a waste. Getting a huge amount of steam in the oven the first few minutes of baking the loaf makes a huge difference in the rise and in the crust. With steam, you get a great open crumb and crispy thin crust. Without it, with the exact same dough you can get a dense heavy crumb and thick, crusty, hard crust.

I can get good steam in my ancient oven by pouring hot water into a certain heavy, dark, nonstick preheated pan (not good for anything else, I was going to get rid of it). If I forget to preheat the pan, it won't work. And, I really need to also stuff towels into the vent. This might cause the glass door to crack, but I'm not worried about that because it is already cracked. So you can see, I can get my (almost) perfect loaf without a fancy new oven, but it's a hassle. I can now totally see why I would want steam injection. For bread. For a tenderloin roast, it sounds like marketing hype to me.

Also, for all baking, holding the correct temperature is critical, and so is even heat. For example, my brownies will get way overdone, burned-tasting, around the edges, ruining the chocolate flavor, if the oven temp is too high even by 25 degrees. 325 can give me perfect brownies, 350 lousy brownies. The same is true of other baked goods. Whereas with roasting vegetables or meats, it's not critical if it's 400 or 425 or 450.

My oven doesn't always product the temp on the dial, so I have multiple thermometers to check, keep a stone in there to maintain for frequent door openings, constant fiddling to get the temp right for baked goods, etc.

So my point is, use your current oven NOW for everything you might ever want to make, and you'll start to learn where your current one is inadequate (or not), and just why those features are developed for certain kinds of cooking.

Full disclosure: I didn't read all of the previous posts thoroughly so I am only answering your initial question. I am an avid cook and love kitchen appliances. I'm a "foodie" I have Thermadore double ovens w/ convection and the speed cook thing. These are the things I think are essential in an oven:
1. size! Don't get the 24 in ones - you'll never find baking sheets to fit
2. good quality name brand oven that has service people in your area so when you need someone to come out and service it...you get somewhere there w/in a couple of days (obscure manufacturers like Aga or Lacornue...might take weeks in my suburban Philly area)
3. Convection is awesome! For roasting moist but beautifully browned roasts and for making soft chewy cookies w/ perfectly browned bottoms
4. Temp probe for meats - I never use it!
5. Speed cook - its fun but you could do the same thing w/ a microwave and your oven: micro potatoes for 10 min then put in a hot oven to crisp same thing I never use mine on meat or vegetables
6. controls that are easy for you to use
7. clean up capabilities... sealed burners are the best because you don't get all that gunk stuck on the bottom and you can just wipe clean and not run an auto clean all the time
8. a good interior light so you can check up on the food w/o opening the door and messing w/ the temperature

Hope this helps. Good Luck to you

So What is Infra Red Broiling? I don't understand, is that a gas oven only thing? I'd appreciate if someone could explain. Thanks.

Infra Red broiling is a very hot ceramic element. It is found on many BBQ's. The gas heats up the ceramic and the ceramic is what actually gives off the heat. The best turkey (Juiciest and most tender)-was done on the rotisserie on my bbq using the Infra red element as the heat. So far I have only found this on gas ovens. It could be done with electric--but the best to my knowledge , it has not been done yet. Actually they could do it with induction, the induction would heat a "Plate" behind the ceramic element which in turn would get the ceramic element very hot and certainly use less electricity than would one that tried to heat that ceramic with a "Conventional electric Element". I do believe I have seen Infrared Electric Space Heaters so it is doable in Electric---but nobody has bothered to do it so far.
Perhaps I should "Patent" my idea of an Induction Ceramic Infra red broiler?
Anyway, Infra Red is just a source for extremely high heat, gives a nice char to the outside of whatever you are broiling and leaves the center nice and Moist.

Gary

If buying the AG range, I would definitely look at one w/the infrared broiler. Another advantage to AG is you can get open burners which are supposed to provide a straighter flame and better heat. There are differing opinons about this as some like sealed burners for clean up. The open burners have trays under them to catch spills.
I would not get anything less than a 30 inch wall oven. You will use it more than you think. It is easier to use height wise and quicker to heat. I think the temp range is narrower w/ electric than w/ the gas oven. I'm not totally sold on the concept of European convection. European or true convection has the element with the fan (also called the convection element). Once the oven reaches temp, it doesn't come on that much anyway. Dacor(with the Discovery controller) does have the pure convection setting with only the convection element coming on, but I found that it browned the food too much toward the fan side. The air coming out is a lot hotter than the air in the oven. The Electrolux (regular oven)I have which replaced that oven has conv roast and bake and rotates through all three elements. I think what is more important is that the oven keeps a narrow temp range. I have the Wolf 36 inch DF and it has 2 fans which seems to be a good thing. I do love convection now that I have it. It is great for meat, appetizers and pizza. I also use it at very low temperature to dry artwork. I don't use it for cakes or pies. I do use the temp probe(I had a separate one before I had these ovens) but you can buy one for $20 so I wouldn't fix it if it broke. It is great to have your meat exactly done without drying out. I would also look at the placement of the lights in the oven and are you able to turn them on and off. Some stay on all the time.

I have infrared broiling in my gas Viking range oven. I also have infrared broiling on my DCS BBQ that sits right outside of my kitchen door. I do not broil in the kitchen unless it is snowing outside. I LOVE the infrared broiler on both BBQ and gas oven. For me, I would have done better with a cooktop and a fabulously consistent electric oven.

Sealed burners versus open burners: I have had both. They are both PITA to clean. I actually think open burners are easier to clean because the spill over does not bake onto the drip pan.

I would go with gas top induction if I had to start all over again....

I don't have open burners but some cover the drip tray w/foil.

I am beginning to focus on 30" double wall ovens. Because of so much insulation, the interior dimensions are important. And it may require a hands on with measure tape because one mfr. identified 'interior' dimensions and 'usable interior' dimensions. So even if interior dimensions are given on a site, they may not be usable. Because of the shrinking interior, a 30" is the way to go for me.

Some features I've been considering

1. light or shorter time self clean in addition to the 2 hour program

2. a higher pass broiler, say 8 or 10. Pass is the turn in the heating element.

3. proof

4. warm

5. self clean racks- not all self clean ovens have racks that can stay in.

6. hidden element-so far in my search, they all do.

7. true convection meaning a heater in a third element.

8. leaning toward getting one convection and one thermal for the potential of increased interior size in the thermal

9. convection broil- don't know if it's a big deal

10. true fast preheat- altho that lends itself to marketing hype. I'd like to see actual timed preheat results. Someone mentioned that 20mins was required to preheat for a pizza! I can't plan that much.

11. Wattage for convection, broil, bake-it varies quite a bit. Overkill? Necessary?

12. I'd like a user friendly program board so it won't take me 3 weeks/months to learn

So among these features, I have to see what's most important. And identify possible add'l features.

Wow. Thank you all for these responses. I counted about 20 things I hadn't previously known about ovens, before losing count.

I am tentatively thinking that, for the wall oven, I will want:
- Electric. Just because the range oven will be gas. Might as well have one of each. For variety.
- A good broiler. The range oven may not have one.
- Able to fit a half-sheet-pan, so something more than 13'' x 18'' interior dimension.
- Convection, maybe, still undecided. I likely won't get it for the range oven ($1,000 extra just for the convection feature - sorry!) so that suggests I should get it for the wall oven.
- Accurate temperatures. I'm realizing that you can't stick baking dough full of thermometer probes like you can with a roast.
- Minimal to no automation. Ideally I'd like a knob for temperature, and switch for broiler, and a knob for timer.

And stuff I am not thinking is important to me:
- Don't much care about self-cleaning. I've cleaned my current oven once in 3 years. Gross, I suppose, but that's the way it is. I keep a pizza stone on the oven floor, and everything goes on top of sheet pans, so I don't get much drippage on the oven itself.
- Convection broil, I still haven't identified a need
- Water spray, sound groovy but looks like a pan of water does the same thing
- Speed, this seems pretty cool but is spendy, I already have a microwave, and the speed ovens I've found seem a little ''high-tech'' for me.

As for interesting models, I've been looking for smaller ovens that will take big pans. There is a Vollrath 33 inch wide, 6600 watt convection oven that takes a full sheet pan and has water spray, but it seems pretty specialized for baking as there is no broiler. It is a countertop model and needs a 30 amp circuit, which presents some location challenges too. I've ruled it out. The Bluestar 24 inch wall oven holds half-sheet pans, the 30 inch holds full-sheet pans, it has an IR broiler and convection with nice simple controls, but it is gas and the controls might be too simple (not even a timer), and it is expensive. Plus which, I haven't found anyone who actually owns one to vouch for it.

You might want to check the owners manuals to see if you can put anything on the floor of the ovens you are considering if you plan on continuing to do that.

Hmm, I never thought of that. What could the pizza stone do that is bad? Would it block something?

The problem is the heat builds up under the stone, or foil, or pan, put on the bottom of an oven with a hidden heat element and causes the oven metal to buckle. Not a happy occurance.

Well, You can make an electric oven moist by using a bain marie, nor putting a ramekin of water in the oven.

Here is a link that might be useful: Los Angeles Appliance Repair

Re: Convection.

I've had two Frigidaire ranges, both with electric ovens, one with convection, one without.

I really have no major complaints about either of these machines, but there is a distinct difference between roasting, say, a chicken with and without convection.

It's much easier to achieve crispy skin with moist meat with convection than without. Browning seemed deeper and more consistent.

This was "fake" or non-European convection, btw.

''The problem is the heat builds up under the stone, or foil, or pan, put on the bottom of an oven with a hidden heat element and causes the oven metal to buckle. Not a happy occurance. ''

Interesting. I haven't had this happen (yet) but I'll pay attention to it.

We've seen several post about users ruining the bottom of their ovens doing this, and they ain't happy campers, Glad it has not happened to you, johnliu

Gary

John, the problem is on the new ovens. You used to be able to do that.

Alternatives: The Gaggenau oven (not for the budget conscious but the best) has an optional (not cheap) pizza stone that comes with its own heating element that goes inside the stone and plugs into the even.

Or you can put a stone, drip pan, or whatever on a low rack. You just have to have room for the air to circulate.

More stuff about ovens that I never knew!

My pizza stone has raised ridges on the bottom that form sort-of-feet, about 1/3'' high. Maybe that has saved me.

Or maybe my circa-2000 range is just forgiving of abuse.

You can become an Oven Saleman now, by reading from our experts here on GW, I bet you know more than most the appliance sale ppl that folks run into? You can talk intelligently now about convection, infra red, etc etc.
I wished I had known about this site before I redid my kitchen (2006) alto I only made one big goof (a fancy cooktop) and was "saved from another mistake" cause my cabinet maker, My kitchen remodeler as well as the company that sold me the pop up vent all said it would fit, only wife said it wouldnt--and I argued with her saying 3 people told me it would. She was right, so I had to take a bath on that pop up, and intall and outside vent--which we really like. Had I read GW first, I would never have bought the thing.
Gary