Hunzi, Noble has an online store so you might be able to get it directly from the manufacturer.

Here is a link that might be useful: Noble CIS

Great! Thanks Lottery Ticket!

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Your wires typically go under the Ditra or Noble or whatever. I'd just tape them to the SLC, comb the thinset carefully over them, and embed the Ditra in it, but others put the wire down and pour the SLC over top.

Over the Ditra it's thinset, then tile. So you've got an extra unnecessary layer of thinset in your formula.

If you are good thermally to go right over the slab, your best bet for a flat and level floor would be to put the RFH wires on the slab, then SLC over the wires to encase them and to get a flat floor. Don't forget to clean the slab and use an SLC primer.

Then CIS over the SLC and tile over the CIS.

If you need a thermal break over the slab to somewhat isolate the RFH from the slab (and the earth below the slab), then you could use a cork or synthetic cork underlayment over the slab, then RFH/SLC/CIS/Tile over the cork.

Mongo, how do I know if I need a thermal break or not?

Right now, we're still at dirt - is there something we should put under the slab?

The plan was level the dirt (which is about 3.5ft below the local frost line) down to where we want the bottom of the slab to land, wet it down (damp) and make sure it does any settling and tamp down the disturbed areas, all areas around the pipes are packed with gravel, and we thought about possibly putting a layer of sand over the whole thing before we pour 4 inches of concrete (plus we'll have a little expansion joint foam next to the 2 foundation walls - the bathroom is in a corner of the basement)

Then do everything else up to the finished tile after the slab cures.

Do you think we need to wait 30 days or can we get started after the framing is done, which will start whenever we can walk on it...oh and when DH has recovered from mixing/pouring sixty 80lb bags of concrete! Which could take 30 days! ;-).

Would we just hot glue tack or tape the wires/mesh (properly hooked up) to the slab, then pour the SLC? Assuming we pour a pretty level slab, how thick does it need to be? (I can drop the whole slab level (dig deeper Honey!) if necessary (1/2 inch or whatever) to accommodate it.

Thanks for helping, I'm going to have loads of questions!
Always ;-)
Hunzi

"Mongo, how do I know if I need a thermal break or not? "

If you had hydronic RFH in a slab you'd want RFBI (rigid foam board insulation) under the slab so you're heating just the slab and not the earth under the slab. Earth can act as one very large heat sink.

While some electric RFH can be spec'd out to heat a room, most is just designed to warm tile. To take the chill off of the floor. They are designed to just heat the tile on top of the slab. As a floor warmer, your better bet would be to add a thermal break on top of the slab. That's where the cork or some other type of material comes in to play.

Without a thermal break between the slab and your tile your tile may still warm. But your electric RFH may also try to heat the slab, and perhaps even the earth under the slab. Where your tile alone is sort of "low mass", the slab and earth are "high mass", so your electric meter may spin itself into oblivion trying to satisfy the demands of the floor thermostat.

You may or may not need it, but it's something to consider when you're figuring out your floor system as a whole.

"Do you think we need to wait 30 days or can we get started after the framing is done..."

You'll want to follow the directions of the product you are using. They typically want the slab to be cured to prevent the slab and the SLC from chemically beating each other up.

Yes. That technique can work.

"Assuming we pour a pretty level slab, how thick does it need to be? "

Depends on the size of the slab and how flat you get it, but you can plan for a 1/2" depth of SLC. That'll allow a bit of variation in the flatness of the slab and still give you good cable coverage over the slab's high spots.

Depends on the size of the slab and how flat you get it, but you can plan for a 1/2" depth of SLC. That'll allow a bit of variation in the flatness of the slab and still give you good cable coverage over the slab's high spots.

Mongo,

THANK YOU!

I'd rather not try to heat all of Upper Elbonia with my little RFH system when all I want are warm tootsies, so I'll look into the cork underlayment, and definitely needed to know what sort of allowance I needed for SLC! I'll have him plan on digging tad deeper.

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Ok, more basic questions!

1) DH is planning to pour the slab*, add the cork & RFH (only a 4x6 mat), self level, THEN do the room framing on the level slab. Good idea? Or should he Pour Slab, Frame the space, cork & RFH, THEN pour the SLC (which seems like it would help contain the SLC better to the areas we need after caulking the framing to the slab)?

*Plan is to pour to the highest point where the new slab meets the older much less level slab in the laundry room area which is probably about 1/2 inch higher than the low point where the two slabs meet (then feather into the low spot). Or we could pour even to the low spot, and plan to fill in the rest with the SLC.

2) Thinking ahead to SLC - I'm currently looking at the 2 most easily available for me - MAPEI 50-lbs Self Leveler Surface Preparation, and Custom Building Products 50 lb. LevelQuik Rapid-Setting Self-Leveling Underlayment. The Mapei would end up being the least expensive for me.

Reading reviews on both, it sounds like a 3 or 4 person job to pour a 150sqft area to about 1/2in thickness and sounds pretty tricky - many people were suggesting adding more water than the bags called for and lamenting the rapid set. Any tips on this? Is the goal mixture similar to something thinner than pancake batter? More like a creamy soup/slurry? Are we better off doing several thin pours over trying to do the whole thing at once? I'm estimating we'll need 10-12 bags.** (Yes, I know to use primer first.)

**even this won't get us to perfectly level from wall to wall - there's probably a nearly 3in difference from the high side of the laundry room (which is behind the washer/dryer) and the lowest points. Apparently MrG did not own a level or even a flat board. And since leveling to the highest point puts gets us under 7ft in finished floor to finished ceiling difference (more like 6'-9.5"), we are going for the level in front of the washer/dryer and letting it rise behind them the last inch plus. (I can get the appliances level, the highest spots are right at the last 6 inches from the wall where the concrete must have been pushed up to them)

3) any better, more user friendly products I should be looking for, even if I have to go someplace other than HD & Lowes?

Any and all tips and kindergarten level instructions and supply lists are appreciated!

Always ;-)
Hunzi

This post was edited by hunzi on Mon, Feb 17, 14 at 12:59

Watched a few youtube videos and have been reading at John Bridges, so I'm feeling a little bit better about having a clue what we'll be getting into.

Definitely think we're going to need at least 3 people (partly due to the constraints of the spaces and I'm thinking SLC pre-framing might not be such a bad idea given I know a good portion of the low points are near where the two slabs meet which is also where the two rooms divide.

And I'm thinking we may spend a bit more $ to have a few throw away buckets, (if I can't scrounge up any extras), because it's still winter here, and until this bathroom/laundry room is done, there is NO WATER or Drain on the basement level (the laundry sink will be in the laundry room being SLC'd and the only floor drain will be in the bathroom). So clean up and use of hoses will be limited. It might be better to mix each batch in a fresh bucket, then just toss them than to try rushing upstairs, outside, and cleaning them up in the driveway in the Nebraska winter. But I can preload buckets with the correct amount of water, and be prepped for mixing. A big corded drill no problem- I've got one of those and a paddle mixer.

Has anyone ever used something like a cement tumbler (the smaller motorized type you can rent at home depot that can do a few bags of concrete at a time) for something like this? It seems like that would make mix & pour of 2 -4 bags easier at a time. Or would it be utterly disastrous?

Of course, I have no clue what I'm doing, so I might be totally crazy!

Always ;-)
Hunzi
dangerous kindergartener

1) I prefer to frame the walls and have the wall framing contain the SLC. On top of the slab use a double sole plate when the walls are framed.

Some like to frame the wall on the flat on the floor then simply scab a second PT sole plate to the bottom, then stand the wall up. Others prefer to secure a single PT 2x4 sole plate to the slab to outline the perimeter of the room, then frame the walls and set them on top of the already set PT sole plate.

Regardless of your order of work, the bottom wall plate that is in contact with the slab should be pressure-treated. Then you can build a "regular wall" with a non-PT sole plate on top of the PT sole plate.

With two sole plates you have a 3" thick double sole plate, so you'll still have good nailing purchase for baseboards, drywall, etc, even after some of the PT sole is buried by the thickness of the SLC.

If your husband has his favorite way of framing, no worries. We all have our favored techniques.

2) I recommend DIYers stay away from any rapid set SLC. Can you use it? Sure. But for first-time SLCers doing a multi-bag pour, why have the material time compress your installation?

Have more bags on hand than you think you need. Returning excess unused material is an inconvenience, but being short a bag or a half bag during a pour is...frustrating.

A 3-person crew is advantageous. Two people to mix (one on the drill, one to pour the SLC into the bucket). The person doing the pouring can also transport buckets back and forth and clean the buckets if they will be reused. A third person to place the SLC.

I place the required amount of water in each bucket before I start. I don't use more or less. I use the recommended amount. I have "fill lines" on the sides of my buckets. Then I add some powder and mix, more powder, and mix, etc.

Once you start you're committed to the end.

3) Extra tips? I recommend you not use rapid set. Think of the SLC as water, and dam appropriately. Foam around the perimeter of the room as an expansion strip between the SLC and the sole plates of the walls. Canned foam is a good sealant for floor penetrations (toilet flange, etc).

I think a couple of years ago "staceyneil" wrote a pretty good primer on how to DIY SLC.

When mixing, I usually put on foot on top of the rim of the bucket to keep it from bouncing around.

And now a very minor point: 5-gallon bucket can be used, but if you can source them, 6-gallon buckets are easier to mix in than 5-gallon buckets.

I don't recommend using a cement or mortar mixer.

Honestly, a paddle drill and a bag-per-bucket assembly line are best.

Thanks again Mongo! (Seriously if you ever find your way to this part of the world, a beer is on me!)

Buckets and paddle drills it will be! (DH also thought I was crazy!)

Ok, so if the products I've seen are all the rapid set versions, do you have names of any slower set ones? And sources?

Dumb question - do six gal bucket looks just like 5gal ones just a little bigger? Are they normally sold empty or do they have another purpose and get recycled? Most of my buckets are reused joint compound buckets (like the 65lb buckets), but if I need to go sweet talk a deli guy out of his pickle buckets just say the word!

Always ;-)
Hunzi

I don't know what stores are in Upper Elbonia, so it'd be more efficient for you to search yourself. You did mention Mapei, so maybe that's from Lowes? The Mapei 50-lb Self Leveler is a "standard" version, not a rapid set.

If all you can source is rapid set, you can use it. But what you can do is mix it with cold water. Cold will slow down the hydration process, giving your more working time with the product.

I don't remember where I got my larger buckets. But yes, they are recycled and they are the same shape as the typical 5-gallon bucket.

Whenever I mix grout, thinset, or SLC with a drill, I also have an extra bucket on hand that's filled abut half way with water. After mixing the SLC I put the drill in the water bucket and give it a couple of quick spins, in forward and reverse. It's good for cleaning the paddle.

If you do add more water than recommended, just don't overdo it and go way overboard. The SLC will set up and consume some of the water via hydration. But if you added way too much water, as the excess water evaporates away, you could get shrinkage cracks or a grainy/sandy surface.

Upper Elbonia aka Omaha, NE is famous for hosting the College World Series among other sporting events. ;-)

And Yes, I have access to both Lowes and Home Depot (and there are other tile shops in town but I'm working hard to keep this budget on a shoestring).

Oh good! That's the SLC I saw at Lowes! I thought it was also a rapid set version.

I will definitely measure out the exact amount of water called for.

First, I need to get the slab in! This a Royal WE by the way! My role is doing all research, planning, and purchasing and quality control. I also usually end up being the gopher and standing at some point holding a sheet of drywall over my head while he's screwing it in! Happily, he has a good friend who comes over and helps with many projects.

Funny of the day - MrHunzi apparently left his drill between the ceilings when he was tracing Mr.G's scary wiring yesterday - so he has to back up there and reopen the lower ceiling and retrieve it. There will be much hay made of this event! ;-)

Always ;-)
Hunzi

"I also usually end up being the gopher and standing at some point holding a sheet of drywall over my head while he's screwing it in! "

Make a "T" brace. It'll save you neck. Your back. Your arms. And your marriage! lol

Yes, a T-brace has been suggested from time to time (often with naughty words)! Happily, his friend (they tend to trade work on projects) now does most of the heavy lifting.

The basement wouldn't be too bad - the ceilings are only 7ft. The 2 main levels of the house are 10.5ft, and we still have one very fun spot on the upper hall stairs that has a drop over 20ft to the hall below (but it's also the staircase, so the real drop is probably 15ft.) That drywall/plaster repair project (all ceilings & interior walls get new drywall, the exterior walls need plastering) is on queue for after this bathroom is finished. Scaffoldings will be built, which will be a huge PITA because it will totally block access to the 2nd floor until finished - I'm not expecting to see my bedroom much for a few weeks!

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Back to the floors:

Kindergarten Question #2: Can I use a shower drain as a floor drain? DH wants a floor drain someplace in the basement, and given the amount of potential water* in the basement, it's not a bad idea! Anyway, I picked up a shower drain because it's a visible location in the bathroom (in front of the HWH closet in the hex tiles) and a giant PVC floor drain with a 4 inch plastic grate is unacceptable. So if a shower drain is the wrong thing - what am I looking for and can I find one that doesn't look like it belongs in a utility room?

*The basement is dry as a bone - we're on top of a hill, over 150 ft above the local flood plain, only had problems twice - once an outside hose pipe broke under the porch (DH forgot to shut off and drain the line for winter) and the water seeped back in the basement from the back pressure on the wall, and the other time we had massive snow and a fast thaw before the ground thawed out and the outside basement stairwell developed a leak from back pressure on the wall from all ground water and flooded the basement. Both of these leaks put under 2 inches in parts of the basement (thanks to Mr.G's highly unlevel floor) and happened before the finishing of the basement, and I kept 90% of my stuff in plastic bins, so all I lost was a couple of sheets of drywall that were stacked on the basement floor. Next time, I may not be so lucky - not sure what flooring is going into the basement bonus rooms, engineered hardwood is high on the list. (Can't put a drain in the basement stairwell because we can't reach the sewer line without traveling uphill - it's too far.) so other than the very freak groundwater problem, (and this house is 130yrs old - there is no drain tile! ), my biggest water problems that I'd need a floor drain for is water already in the house - in the basement we have the 50 gal HWH, a water softener, the clothes washer (on electronic valves & steel braided hoses), all the various plumbing, almost all new pex and PVC (plus of course all plumbing above on the other 2 floors - also new) and the 90yr old cast iron hot water boiler - with probably hundreds of gallons of water in a closed system and most pipes are from 1925! So the potential for water disasters is there - hence the need for at least one drain to at least keep any damage minimized so we won't be knee deep pumping it out.

Always ;-)
Hunzi
belt & suspenders type but wants them to look good

Kindergarten Question #3:

I'm working on my materials list. Do I want Nobel Bond 21 or Nobel Bond EXT to bond down the CIS? It's a bathroom & laundry - the tile will occasionally get wet, but not like shower or something out in the rain would. I just want to be sure I use the right one.

details and more details!
Always ;-)
Hunzi

"I'm working on my materials list. Do I want Nobel Bond 21 or Nobel Bond EXT to bond down the CIS? It's a bathroom & laundry - the tile will occasionally get wet, but not like shower or something out in the rain would. I just want to be sure I use the right one."

Why not use thinset? That way you can use the whatever is left over for setting the tile. No half tubs of "specialty product" left over.

"Kindergarten Question #2: Can I use a shower drain as a floor drain?"

Hmm. I suppose you could. Add a drain and a trap. Where does your flood water discharge to? Do you have a sump with pump to make it go vertical? Or does it go to daylight?

Will it be connected to the shower drain line? If so, any chance of an overflow in one drain backing up through the other?

Any chance of sewage back up, ie, will you need a check valve?

I...am...outttahere! See you (cyber-wise) in a few days.

Hmm. I suppose you could. Add a drain and a trap.

Yes, that's what we did - 2in line & trap, shower drain on top.

Where does your flood water discharge to? Do you have a sump with pump to make it go vertical? Or does it go to daylight?

There are no drain tiles or sumps any place. I don't think the builders thought of it 130 yrs ago, and with our elevation, exterior flooding is extremely rare (other than the possible freak snowstorm and fast thaw causing really high hydrostatic pressure on the house). Before the river could reach my door downtown Omaha would be about 10 stories deep, I'm 150ft over the flood plain. This is really for "just-in-case of interior flooding". It's connected to the household drain waste.

Will it be connected to the shower drain line?

No. It's on its own wye. It's connected to the main line about 2 ft away on the 4in nearly horizontal run (1/4in per ft) that is on the way to exiting the house.

If so, any chance of an overflow in one drain backing up through the other? Any chance of sewage back up, ie, will you need a check valve?

I think a check valve isn't the worst idea - I asked about one at one time, but I might have been asking about one right at the zone where the 4in main leaves the house (as in a whole house protector at the entry point for any backflow from outside). But I didn't think about possible problems of back pressure from a slow inside line or again that freak exterior backup (everything that's horizontal in the basement is pitched is at least 1/4in per ft, but not much more - the main line is just barely under the bottom of the slab).

He just glued up the last pipes yesterday and backfilled them all today - I am betting this might make him a wee bit cranky, but I'll bring it up! Better to be cranky now, than for both of us to be REALLY CRANKY when we have to tear out concrete and tile later.

Quick update:
Oh happy news! I just discovered Flood Guards! So he won't have to tear out his new pipes and we'll have a backflow protector on that line.

Any other concerns? - I'll have 2 standpipes (one for the washer, and one for the water softener - obviously both of those are over the flood plain of the basement sinks & tub) and a bathtub. Do any of those need backflow protection? The tub? (I once lived in a house that had a backup into the tub - yuck.)

The bathtub line is on a wye about 2ft off the main too - just a little downstream of the floor drain & on the other side on the main.

This is why I ask so many questions.

Always ;-)
Hunzi
Enjoy your weekend! I owe you another beverage.

duplicate post!

This post was edited by hunzi on Sat, Feb 22, 14 at 10:01

Hahahaha...upper Elbonia. You crack me up!

So we're in a holding pattern - the next step is to pour the concrete! However, the weather looks like it's going to be snowy yet again this weekend (just enough to make roads and sidewalks treacherous!) - will this winter ever end?

Since we have to borrow DH's Friend's big truck & trailer to haul the 60 80lb bags of concrete, then they have to unload them, and walk them about 40 feet to the basement stairs and then either carry them down or build a slide of some sort and have someone load them into a wheel barrow at the bottom (DH's idea - but I think they're at least 1 guy short and that there isn't enough room in the stairwell for a wheel barrow and a person for that plan to work.)

So we don't want anyone crashing or slipping on the snow and we might push the project back another weekend.

Bummer - because once we pour the concrete, we'll only be able to do a few small projects (some minor framing, maybe install the water softener) while we wait the 28 days for the slab to cure.

Oh well, it looks like we're on schedule to finish by summer - (if you read in my original Starting From Dirt main thread - that was my prediction!).

Always ;-)
Hunzi
waiting for the weather man to say go

So a couple of progress photos.

This is about all we think we can do for now. Grading is done, expansion foam in place. I'm sure there will be some more minor tweaking.

This is looking to the back wall where the sink will be and the corner where the tub will be.

Standing in the laundry room, looking at the toilet & hot water closet area

Standing at the tub corner looking back towards the laundry. The spot where the shovel is leaning is the low point of the old slab where the two slabs meet - the high point on the other end of the cold joint is about 1/2 in higher.

This post was edited by hunzi on Fri, Feb 28, 14 at 10:46

Looking at the laundry/electrical closet. Also the high point on the old slab about 1/2 inch higher than the low spot where the two slabs meet (there are lower points inside the old slab, but we're only concerned with the joint right now.)
And yes, the wye will be fixed.

In the sort of exciting news that only someone who has lived with a 10x10 patch of dirt in her basement for over 10 years can be truly ecstatic about, there are now 20 bags of concrete stacked in my basement!!! 20 more today, 20 more on Friday, and the pour begins on Saturday!!!

Soon the dirt will no longer mock me!!!! Bwahahahaha!!!!

Always ;-)
Hunzi

Well our 30 day wait is over!!! Yay! In that time, we have purchased the RFH, the self leveler, & lots of lumber supplies.

Next step is tomorrow!
going to move washer & dryer & laundry sink out of the space,
prime the floor with Mapei Primer, wait 2 hrs
lay out Radiant Floor Heating, make sure that's all working.
prime RFH mats
Pour self leveler (Mapei Self Leveler from Lowes) over floor & RFH

Come back later and congratulate ourselves on a job well done! ;-)

Ok, so does the plan make sense? Any tips for complete newbies? (DH has used SLC before in 1 bag amounts on small spots, but we've never poured this much - my estimate was 15 bags to cover the whole floor, the RFH, and reach level to the higher parts of the laundry room (50% of the floor - the new slab, is out of level with the old slab by 1/2in, but the old slab is out of level by up to 1.5 in in spots. Total coverage is about 150sqft.

Question of the day:

1) Should we prime the whole floor first, then lay out the RFH, or just prime over both after laying it out (no primer under RFH)?

Always ;-)
Hunzi