these areas are too big to be normal.

You may call SunTouch too. This would be to let you hear it from the horse's mouth.

Sounds to me like a layout problem. Our only cold spots are where the wire spacing was more than the 3" prescribed (and warm spots are where the wire spacing was less). We taped the wire directly to the subfloor. If they used mats, the spacing would have been pre-set, so a cold spot would only result if there's no wire there. I'm thinking tile guy ran out of mat or ordered improperly.

The wire actually contains 2 strands of wire in it, and they connect at the far end of the wire in a loop. That creates the "return path" for the electricity to flow and complete the circuit. If the wire was cut, the circuit would be interrupted and the whole thing wouldn't work.

If I were you, I'd take some painter's tape and mark off the cold area. You'll be able to define it pretty readily, as the warmth drops off quickly outside the 3" distance. Then bring your builder back in and show him how that outline is consistent with an absent mat. Then have him pull up the tiles in the cold space to see if there is indeed mat below. You could even tell him that if there is mat that's working properly, you'll pay him to have the tiles re-set (that's a bet you won't lose).

You could fix the cold spot buy getting a short length of wire, splicing it (both wires) into the existing mat's cable, and shrink wrapping it. An electrician could handle this. Then tile back over it.

BTW, if the heat ends 6" from the vanity toe kick, I'd definitely consider that a problem. It should go all the way under so your tootsies are warm while you're brushing your teeth.

Based on davidro1's suggestion, I called SunTouch myself.

Basically, they agree that the installation was done improperly -- the mat should have been put right up to the toe kick, there aren't cut wires because if there were then the mat wouldn't work, and that WarmWire could be a potential solution.

Our problem with WarmWire is the minimum length they sell is for 10 sq ft (8 sq ft if we decrease the distance between wires) but the cold area is 6 sq ft.

SunTouch suggested wiring WarmWire in parallel near the thermostat, but I had not considered weedyacres's suggestion of splicing a wire into the existing mat. I understand the principal and am comfortable with that, although I'm sure it would void the warranty.

My questions if we did this:

1) Would it be best to keep as much of the braided metal shield around the cable?

2) Would the increased wire length pose any problem for the thermostat? The existing area is only 35 sq ft.

Whenever a cable gets cut, people have to splice. The fix is a splice. Call the manufacturer back and ask about this.

Your question about the sheathing sounds like you are far more experienced than any average DIY or homeowner. I'm sure you can answer the question about how to handle sheathing if you get around to splicing cable. Also you may call the manufacturer back and ask about this.

Did the thermostat come with the cables as a kit?

Call them back and ask about getting them to calibrate the thermostat to the new (longer) cable after splicing in a new segment. Perhaps they will guide you how to do this. Or introduce you to a technician. Calibrating a thermostat is not new or experimental. It's normal. In any case the manufacturer will know what to tell you and you will know what you have in your hand to tell them what you have. E.g. for background knowledge: see "Aube thermostat" .

Hmmm. The thermostats we got from Warming Systems weren't specific to cable length. They just have 2 sizes, and you could hook up either one or two lengths of cable to each. No calibration or anything.

Dennis, if your thermostats are like ours, and have two hookups on them, then you could just get a short cable length and run it in the cold part, and hook it up to the same thermostat. It sounds like you can do that with SunTouch, since they recommended it. The tricky part would be getting one end of the wire back to the thermostat, as it would probably mean tearing up more tile along the route. Splicing it would be less destructive.

I wouldn't be too worried about warranty issues with the wire. It's just wire, after all, and pretty hard to nick when it's embedded in thinset. The parts that go bad are the thermostat and the sensor.

I have the exact same problem. My husband's side of the bathroom is nice and toasty but my side is ice cold a few inches out and then spotty in the entire area just in front of the vanity. It's pretty shocking to land on it when the other areas are warm. There are areas in the water closet that are cold. We have travertine tile and it's just freezing if not heated as there is a garage underneath. They also missed places around the shower. I was hoping to read this thread and find out that the cold spots were normal so I wouldn't feel as upset as I do each and every day I use that bathroom. I figured they were doing a bad job but there was nothing I could really do about it, I tried. I figured they didn't order enough material and just spaced it out when they got to my side of the bathroom. If only I had had the vital information offered on this forum back in April 2010.

Totally abnormal... We've installed radiant electric floor ourselves (kitchen, bath, ...), and the few cold spots we have are: we didn't get close enough to the toekick in some places, and we neglected to "dryfit" our wire (we didn't use the mat type) and have a little square without wire. Everytime my feet hit that space, I think that maybe we should have hired someone, but now I feel better.

If the zone is quite large, I would really look into getting a specialist to tie in new wire/mat. The guy that sells me the wire does that type of work, even repairing a non working floor by finding the spot where the wire is damaged and just removing that tile!

You also shouldn't have to "recalibrate" your thermostat. It has absolutely no idea what is the load (i.e. resistance) of your wire. It is controlled with the temperature probe embedded under the tile.

My 3 cents? I'm in Thailand now, so perhaps I should write "my 1 baht?"

You have a builder you hired to oversee construction. You pay him.

The builder hired a sub to install the mat and tile the floor. The builder in turn pays the tile sub.

It appears that the mat is working properly. It was simply installed improperly based on the manufacturer's installation guidelines.

Your interaction is with the builder. It's up to the builder to make things right with the tile subcontractor. It's up to the builder and tile sub to work out between themselves why the floor is unevenly heated, and if it gets to the next level or repairs being made, whatever money and labor and materials need to be worked out. No additional money would come out of your pocket.

The only caveat would be the wording in the contract. If it specifies that the bathroom floor will be heated by a RFH mat, that's one thing. If it states that the bathroom floor will be heated by 50 sqft of RH mat (or with a certain mat model that specifies the mat size, for example), then the tiler can fall back on the position that he did the best he could with the materials specified in the contract. And since the mat size was stipulated in the contract, and you signed off on the contract, then there you go. You're sort of stuck responsibility-wise.

If the mat size/model was specified in the contract, would it have been nice for the tiler to have spoken up about the installation being inadequate when he realized he wouldn't have full coverage with the mat? Yup. But that should have been figured out by the builder way ahead of time during the bidding and design process.

Just parking my envy of mogoct here. I got to go to Thailand once and LOVED it. It was a work trip and Thailand is my favorite part of Asia (not that I've seen all of Asia, but of the countries I've been to I liked Thailand the best).

We've been building Custom Homes for over 20 years in the state of Alaska, my dad being a home builder in WA state before that. We currently build between 10 and 15 homes a year, most of them between $350,000 and $800,000. We have a couple hundred projects under our belt, and have an impeccable reputation. I honestly don't know of a single client that would not refer us, and that's a testament to our unyielding commitment to customer satisfaction.

Enter the exception:

I currently have an upset client that has a cold spot in their master bathroom floor, on which we installed a SunTouch Floor heat system. The cold spot is roughly 8 or 10" wide and about 2' long, and unfortunately it's right outside of the shower, so when you stand to dry off you are standing on this cold spot.

By nature, these mats do not spread heat beyond the edge of the mats, and it's easy to tell where the mat ends and normal (cold) floor begins. We had our tile subcontractor install a total of 3 heat mats, each a different size, in order to completely cover the entire floor area, to eliminate the risk of this exact problem.

Why there is a cold spot there, I'm honestly not sure. If there was one of the 3 mats that got damaged, the entire mat would not work, not just one spot. The only conclusion is that the installer somehow left a gap between the heat mats, but when using a pre-sized mat, its hard to do that in the middle of the floor. It's possible the manufacture left a void in the mat wires, but that's unlikely as well. I'm stumped.

The more difficult quandary for me is what to do. This client is the first client I've ever had that I wished we did not have as a client. From the very initial home design and contract specs and estimate, he's been able to find something to complain about. Literally every aspect of the home. From the site work, well placement, utilities, framing, roofing, siding, paint, mechanical, sheet rock, insulation, doors, windows, cabinetry, counter tops, flooring, trim work.. everything! And a year after they move in it doesn't stop. Like every project, we make mistakes, so many of his complaints are legitimate. But his demeanor and attitude make it all but impossible to work for, and even more so when you feel that no matter WHAT you do, you will not be able to please. Many of the issues are self inflicted, and come about in an effort from him trying to save money, which all come back to bite ME. Our profit margin is currently below our overhead costs, and there is no indication of it stopping here.

I could write a novel on the issues, but I hate to bore you. From our perspective, he is simply an unreasonable client. We never promise "perfect" work to anybody, and now I'm being forced to provide it, everywhere. I even told them up front that "we have never done perfect work, and never will". Many of the items he complains about are simply a defect in the materials, like cracks in exterior wood beams. Its wood. Our framer went to the supply house in person and hand selected each timber, as we knew by this time what kind of person he was. Still wasn't good enough.

The short story is that I'm mentally exhausted and simply want to be done with this guy. We've been respectful and courteous to date, so we are still on decent terms, but at what point do I face the fact that I can't please this guy, and will never make him happy? Is it best just to cut my losses and be done?

The only fix I know of here is to completely remove and replace the entire tile floor (although after reading this thread I'm going to research splicing wires) and what I'm mostly concerned about is him not accepting the outcome. "why is there tile dust in my garage? I want it all dust free. There is a scratch on my cabinetry door, I want it fixed. The stain color for the new cabinetry door isn't the same, this won't work. Some idiot walked across my carpet with shoes on, I want it shampooed. There is a ding here on the sheet rock, please fix. We won't be home the days you can do the work, so find another day to do it" (no thanks or appreciation during any of this)

Here is my last correspondence with him, and it's not a surprise that he isn't happy with it:

Hi Josh,

The short answer is that there really isn’t anything that can be
done here, short of tearing out the entire floor and re-doing everything,
and that’s not a realistic option. One option might be to get a small throw rug
for stepping onto when you get out of the shower? Unfortunately I really don’t
have any other ideas.

I realize it’s not perfect having a cold area there, but it’s like
having a puddle or a crack in a slab.. yes it’s undesirable, but it doesn’t
warrant a complete tear out.

I'm not sure what I'm hoping for by posting this. Maybe to provide another perspective? Maybe some of you can give me some thoughts and help me decide how to best handle this :) Maybe there is a great way to find and fix this problem that I haven't heard of yet. Thanks for reading!

Worn and weary.

Steven@wirtaneninc.com

Our solution was the tile was entirely ripped out and redone with properly installed mats by the builder. They did scrape a few of the tiles and nick the cabinet toe kicks in a couple of places. Definitely worth it, though. The cold was much more noticeable than the small nicks.

Steven:

You probably won't like my answer, but the floors are definitely problematic and should be fixed. If that was the only defect he was complaining about, and he was a nice guy, you'd fix it, wouldn't you?

Yes, it's hard to see past all the stupid nitpicks, and they are impacting your eagerness to fix this problem. But this problem, in isolation, should be fixed.

Do you have any photos during the install showing the positioning of the mats before the tile was laid? If not, you should demo that area and find out why the installation is faulty in that little patch.

That's the big risk with tile-over RFH mats. You need to make sure the heat is where it's supposed to be, because if a mistake is made? The only proper solution is a tear out. But there might be a way around having to do a tear-out.
If you can access the underside of the bathroom floor subfloor from a joist bay below, there are heated mats that can go on the bottom of the subfloor. That way you can leave the tile intact.

Watts Radiant makes a good underfloor mat. SunTouch and a few others sell them too. Based on how much trouble this has caused you, even if you have to cut in to and then patch a ceiling? It might be worth it. The mats I know of are 10W/sqft, and output about 34BTU/h.

The heat might not match perfectly. But it'll get rid of the chill.

Good luck!

Thanks for the feedback.

That's the question: Where is the line on what is acceptable work and what is not? I've always prided myself on the ability to not let emotion cloud our professional service. The customer is always right, and if they aren't happy we just do what it takes to "make it right"... and LEARN from it - It will only make us better. I've asked myself this very question many times: If this was someone else, would we jump in and address this issue? I'm not 100% sure.

This bathroom floor area, not counting the shower space, is roughly 85 square feet. If 1.6 square feet of the floor is "cold", is that considered faulty workmanship?

If we poured an exterior concrete apron for someone, and there was a puddle in it, is it reasonable to demand it torn out? How big/deep is the puddle, and where is it located? Was there discussion about % slope or grade, or potential puddles to begin with? Are they hiring the cheapest contractor, or the more expensive one? All of it comes down to meeting expectations, and by and large, we excel at it. I tell our guys all the time that it doesn't matter what IS, it matters what people THINK. Our job is to define or create reasonable expectations, and then deliver them.

How small of a cold spot would warrant a tear out in your opinion? Also, don't most people stand on a towel or rug when they get out of the shower?

We take LOTS (sometimes more than a 1000) pictures during our projects and upload them to our cloud based project management software called BuilderTREND. The client can also upload and view pictures, along with everything else. But unfortunately we don't have any pictures showing the mats prior to installing the tile.

This "issue" is enough of a question that I haven't gone to our tile installer to suggest he has a problem that needs dealt with. We've talked about it, seeing if he has any recollection or photos of mat placement, but it's pretty limited. I would be embarrassed to ask him to fix it.

And again, I'm not confident at all that the "fix" would make Josh happy, which is my largest hang up. We have taken a beating with a smile for almost two years, and it begs the question - when is enough enough? It honestly feels pointless.

I truly appreciate the input and perspective. It's great to have additional viewpoints to consider, as we truly want to "do the right thing". I look forward to additional commentary.

As a reasonable homeowner, the location of the spot is paramount. We also had a cold spot right near the toilet. I would occasionally step on it but didn't care that much. Right in front of the vanity, though? Huge problem, even though it was a very small percentage of the overall square footage, it was a disproportionately high percentage of the time where we stood.

I almost mentioned in my first reply I thought it odd that that spot is a concern as we use a mat ourselves in front of the shower door. But maybe they legitimately don't and stepping out of the warm shower to a cold floor really sucks.

Although I think your questions are completely reasonable, the worst that can happen now is a potential future client finds your post here and decides against you based on what happens here.

If it really has been about two years, and they are only now complaining about it, I think they lost any reasonable expectation of having it fixed. If they complained before your warranty was up, I think it is a bad job and needs replaced. I base this on the discussions I had with SunTouch on what is and isn't a proper installation - any cold spots is not proper.

You may wish to call the manufacturer yourself for their opinion. They may provide the information you need to go back to the homeowner.

If the unheated portion is in a place where I'd place my bare foot as part of my normal traffic pattern as I make my way around the room? To me that'd be something to gripe about. If it was in front of a vanity, a place where's I'd typically be stationary? That'd be completely unacceptable.

I've refused to short cut mat or cable coverage, even when the homeowner has insisted that it'd be okay to do so. Because it never will be okay. They might accept the poorly heated floor with cold spots because they insisted on and agreed to it. But they'll never, ever be happy with it.

If I were ever to shortcut a mat...which I won't...I'd not do it without the homeowner signing off on a very detailed "heated versus unheated" floor plan.

In your original post you wrote that there is no heat on the floor within 18" of the vanity, right in front of a sink. To me, and to Suntouch, that's way out of bounds.

In front of vanities Suntouch recommends the mat be right up next to the vanity. If there's a toe kick, it goes under the toe kick.

So 18"? That's a battle to be fought between you and your sub who installed the mat. In my eyes, the homeowner wins on that one.

How this is remedied? You could refund them the amount of the RFH back to the homeowner, perhaps even recouping a part of the money through the sub who installed the mat. That may or may not satisfy.

You can keep things as they are and let it slide. You might end up with an ulcer.

You can fix it from below.You can eat the cost of the new mat, the tile sub perhaps could compensate you for the cost of opening up and closing up the ceiling below the bathroom.

Or you can bring the original tile sub back in and fix it from above. He supplies the labor at no charge. You can work out the materials cost as best as you can with the tile sub.

There are options, none of them pleasant.

I do feel for you. You sound like someone who builds with good intentions.

You wrote that "Many of the issues are self inflicted, and come about in an effort from
him trying to save money, which all come back to bite ME. Our profit
margin is currently below our overhead costs, and there is no indication
of it stopping here."

That's a tough spot to be in. But if he's talking you into changing things along the way and you're not executing formal Change Orders as the plans and contract morph away from the original design and budget agreement? Again, I might be reading too much into this and making an erroneous assumption. But when I've had difficult clients, everything goes in writing. Every change to the original plan is a written change order, paid for by the customer before the change is made. If the payment isn't made before the due date specified on the change order, no change is made and for that portion of the project, work goes along per the original plan and the original contract. If the change order results in a cost savings, it gets deducted from the next disbursement notice.

There is karma. There are the easy clients. Like the one a few years ago who deposited $900k in an account with my name on it and said "build me a house".

Anyhow, I do wish you luck with this. You sound like one of the good guys who's been run over by a freight train. Might be time to put on your engineer's cap, wave a red lantern, and slow this guy down a bit.

Just to clarify, I didn't post the original question (that was hennan). The "cold spot" issue is similar though, with me being a builder, and hennan being a home buyer.

In an effort to find a solution to my cold spot issue, I found this thread on Houzz after researching online, and after reading I made my post yesterday.

MongoCT: So there is no confusion for anyone, I just want to point out I had the original problem with a different builder 4 years ago and it was remedied. That was the cold spot in front of the vanity. The builder removed all the tile and properly installed the mats.

Wirtanen is a different builder than mine and the incidents are years apart. His customer has a cold spot in front of the shower.

(read my original post yesterday at 12:41 PM)

"That's the question: Where is the line on what is acceptable work and what is not?"

This is not a fine line here.

"This bathroom floor area, not counting the shower space, is roughly 85 square feet. If 1.6 square feet of the floor is "cold", is that considered faulty workmanship?"

That is irrelevant. The area in question falls within the main flow of the bathroom, in areas expected to be warmed for comfort. It doesn't matter what percentage of the whole. If it were in a corner, you would have a point. You are grasping at straws to defend yourself.

While you may consider yourself to be stellar and your client to be a PIA, you must realize, even within your own stated internal standards, that this is not right or acceptable. It doesn't matter whether you like the guy or not.

It is heartening that you made good. It was the right thing to do in a world where so many do not. It makes the world a more trustworthy and pleasant place. Kudos!

Good on you, mate! Sorry your tile sub didn't show the integrity that you did.