Hi I am back. I think i i forgot to say that, when relative humidity is high, temperature change less than when relative humidity is low (Inside 1 day, i meant 24 hours) (Or i said it, but that for making thing to clear). Also want to say temperature usually (not alwayss, many times) reach their highest temperature about midday (Actually it is little bit later), expection happens also to this (As i said humidity stabilize temperature). Lowest temperature in day happens little bit later after sunrise, again expections can happen (Sun takes little time to warm up grounds on earth). Almoust forgot write that Jefferson, Missouri, U.S.A. growing degree days/zone number was 537,428. Now let's take a look at little bit of our numbers, which we got. Sorry forgot to say those dew points number was rounded to neareast Celsius degree. For example 24,5 Celsius would rounded to 25 Celsius degree and 24,49 Celsius degree would rounded to 24 Celsius degree. We have now little surprise here. We have Jefferson, Missouri, U.S.A. highest dew point with 28 Celsius, followed by Orlando, Florida, U.S.A. 25 C, Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. 25 C, Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. 24 C, Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. 23 C, which was tied with Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A, Honolulu, Hawaii U.S.A. and Baltimore, Maryland U.S.A. Jefferson, Missouri, U.S.A. was in zone 7 with 3 762 growing degree days and ratio of 537,428 (Sorry looks like i forgot tell that, now i fix it same time). Neither of those numbers are highest on the list. What happened? What explain this? Well looking Jefferson, Missouri, U.S.A. data i see this 28 Celsius dew point happened on 3.8.2008. On few previous days Jefferson had a fog (also there might have been rain) (Which is one form humidity), next my guess is that wind came from south from Gulf of Mexico, giving humid air to there, then that humidity stabilize temperature on high level, that way dew point got high (That was just on my guess what happened, did not specially checked that given date weather). But i think in growing season in mind, we should concentrate to wider time area, than just 1 single day, overview i meant. Next number is average dew point counted for every day from 2008. I think it gives our good idea about relative humidity in relationship to temperature, considering 1 year, summer, spring, autumn and winter together. What is order now? Not so surprisingly (i hope) Honolulu, Hawii, U.S.A. came now first, as it have warm weather and temperature year round, high zone and high growing degree days and are as well surrounded by water. Honolulu had 17 C, next is Orlando, Florida, U.S.A. with 15 C, nearly same as Honolulu. Followed by Atlanta, Georgia U.S.A. 9 C, Charlotte, N.C. 8 C. Now when look more those numbers we see that Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. and Fresno, California, U.S.A. is not near top of this number... What happened? They had high zone both and have a nice amount of growing degree days. Actually even our lowest growing degree days of 1853,96 in Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. beats Phoenix, Arizona U.S.A. in this number. Looks like dew point really doesn't like high temperature and low humidity combination. How about lowest dew point? Dew points can't be higher than air temperature this limits dew points temperature. Now first in our list is again Honolulu, Hawaii U.S.A. again no surpsinly (Hopefully.) same reason as above, high humdity and surrounded by water. Next is Fresno, California, U.S.A. with - 11 C, that came little surprise, why not again Orlando, Florida U.S.A.? I think the reason is that California may have winter rainy weather, higher humidity in winter than in summer, this might explain why there is higher zone than the same latitude in eastern U.S.A. It is followed by Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. - 15 C, and Orlando, Florida, U.S.A - 16 C. Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. is in 3rd place in this number, wile having lowest growing degree days on my list. How this is explained? I think pretty much same logic as Fresno, California, U.S.A. it is quite humid place, which helps keep temperature drop too fast (As their zone zone suggest, not very cold winter in 2008). Last in list is Helena, Montana, U.S.A. with -32 C, it is in north, just south of Canada boarder. Also it is mountain state, high elevation place. Then let's still look june, july, august average temperature as whole (In my mind trying to see what happens during growing season, in summer). I calculate average june, july and august average dew point for all of those 12 weather station using this formula (june average dew point + july average dew point + august average dew point) / 3. Just the normal average formula, yes if you think it. Number one is now Orlando, Florida, U.S.A. not Honolulu, Hawaii U.S.A. with average dew point of 20,666 C, next is Jefferson, Missouri, U.S.A. with 18,333 C, followed by Honolulu Hawaii, U.S.A. with 18 C and Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. 17,666 C. Here is the list of same order as above, counted average dew point of june, july and august average (In Celsius degrees and i took only 3 decimals, many places had more decimals in result, i did not rounded them, i just cutted out of rest decimals, expect those 3 decimals.) : Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. 17,666 Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. 17,333 Orlando, Florida, U.S.A. 20,666 Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A. 16,333 Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A. 14,333 Fresno, California, U.S.A. 8 Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. 11 Helena, Montana, U.S.A. 3,666 Jefferson, Missouri U.S.A. 18,333 Honolulu, Hawaii, U.S.A. 18 Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. 9 Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A. 16,333 What we can now say about this, if anything? I see clear pattern here (Do you see it as well?). All of mine eastern U.S.A. weather station has almoust same average june, july, august average dew point, maybe Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A. is slightly lower than others, including midwest Jefferson, Missouri, U.S.A. Also i see all of those eastern U.S.A. weather place have a higher average dew point in summer than either Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. or Fresno, California, U.S.A. i do not see single expection on mine 12 weather station list. On the western side of the U.S.A. i see how well Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. hangs there even it have a lot of cooler summer than Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. or Fresno, California, U.S.A. has. I guessed/knew just looking Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. growing degree days give us too bad image of that place and did not tell whole true there about growing season and weather there. So it looks like eastern U.S.A. based on those 12 weather stations in summer is quite same kind of weather considering temperature and humidity, there is no really much difference in growing season in summer (june, july and august). I consider difference betweeen Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. 17,666 and Cincinnati, Ohio U.S.A. 16,333 be quite small, especially if considering their zone differences. All of them in eastern U.S.A. are warm and humid in summer (Based on those 12 weather stations). Now you think does it matter eastern U.S.A. has higher average dew point during june, july, august than western U.S.A. has? I would like to say based on Gardenweb messages, yes it does. Why would you have then said if dew point and that way humidity does not play role in growing peaches, following word " eastern state grows eastern peach, western state peach grow western peach, California peaches do not do good in southeast, or some similar words?" You say so because it does, humidity does play a role in growing peaches. Then you think how this dew point and that way humidity affects peaches (or some other plants)? I have read that, and you have probably have too read that and know that. When dew point is high, then temperature and also humidity is high. High temperature and high humidity that sounds good combination of different kind of (forming) disease on peaches (fruit) and other fruits. This is in good agreement with that i read in Gardenweb earlier peaches are less trouble some than later peach varieties in southeast U.S.A. That sounds logical, and also confirmes quite well what people have said here in Gardenweb about later peach varieties regarding diseae. Also that way proves right that dew and relative humidity have effect of growing peaches and probably other fruits too. Sounds logical, right? If you think what you do if you live in southeast U.S.A. and think what to do about this disease issue, well you can spray your tree (with chemicals) to control this. I think this has been discussed here, use search engine here in Gardenweb to see them. I think you know this, just a notice. Next i do next list, which i take average all of those 6 numbers and they are as follows: Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. 10,833 Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. 11 Orlando, Florida, U.S.A. 14,333 Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A. 9,333 Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A. 7,166 Fresno, California, U.S.A. 6,166 Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. 6,333 Helena, Montana, U.S.A. -2,666 Jefferson, Missouri U.S.A. 10,666 Honolulu, Hawaii, U.S.A. 17 Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. 5,666 Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A. 9,333 Sorry for the Helena, Montana, U.S.A. it got so low numbers that average droppod negative. What about those numbers? Honolulu, Hawaii U.S.A. is first, second is Orlando, Florida, U.S.A. then is Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. closed followed by Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. Looks like quite same way as zone map expect Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. , Fresno, California, U.S.A. and Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. Notice how closely Charlotte, North Carolina U.S.A. and Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. is, both in zone 8. Looks like they have quite similar weather. I think above table give additional information us about weather and humidity. Low numbers in my opinion in Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. and Fresno, California, U.S.A. indicate it is dry in summer, meaning rain may be problem during growing season (summer). Helena, Montana, U.S.A. might have some problems, but (much) less scale of than Phoenix or Fresno of rain problems, that come in obvious in looking june, july and august average dew point, above number is low because winter is cold. Here is next list. Now i took above number (growing degree days /zone) and * average of those 6 numbers, for example Charlotte, North Carolina number was 594,125 then multiply it by above * 10,833. I got below table, but one thing first Helena, Montana, U.S.A. has negative number, i do not want have negative number, so i decided on that case use june, july, august average dew point as above wroten. I did want give Helena, Montana, U.S.A. something, even it had cold winter, they also have growing season (That chance only for in Helena, Montana, U.S.A. in my list, other goes as i wrote). Here is the list : Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. 6436,125 Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. 7328,75 Orlando, Florida, U.S.A. 12022,520 Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A. 5013,146 Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A. 3676,158 Fresno, California, U.S.A. 3650,888 Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. 5939,087 Helena, Montana, U.S.A. 1583,712 Jefferson, Missouri U.S.A. 5732,207 Honolulu, Hawaii, U.S.A. 16123,718 Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. 1366,214 Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A. 5170,482 This really hurted Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. it dropped below Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. But some place got benefit, for example Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A. I think Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. dropped down, because of low dew point and low humidity. If you wonder what was calculated. First growing degree days calculated growing season by taking account high temperature and low temperature and compared it to temperature base. Then we counted how many growing degree days there in to the one zone by taking growing degree days and divide it to zone. Now we take in one form to take account of humidity to it also (in order to count some way rain). Now we can still do one thing, let's take above numbers which was in last list and divide to our growing degree days and let's also change it to %, to do so let's * 100 it. For Example we have number 6436,125 in Charlotte, then we have 4753 growing degree days for Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. So we get formula 6436,125/4753=1,354. Let's *100, so now we get formula 1,354*100=135,4%. 100% would mean number would be same as growing degree days, so in Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. we have 35,4% more this number than growing degree days. Here is the list : Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. 135,4% Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. 7328,75 137,5% Orlando, Florida, U.S.A. 143,4% Cincinnati, Ohio, U.S.A. 133,3% Detroit, Michigan, U.S.A. 119,4% Fresno, California, U.S.A. 61,6% Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. 63,3% Helena, Montana, U.S.A. 73,3% Jefferson, Missouri U.S.A. 152,3% Honolulu, Hawaii, U.S.A. 154,5% Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. 70,8% Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A. 133,3% I think this number gives us some information in overall condition in growing season. As it takes account growing degree days, zone and humidity (rain in some way) and shows it in relative way using %. I would explain those numbers this way: high percentage say for example over 100% indicates us that, everything is O.K. (about) zone is good , temperature is good, relative humidity is good (probably rain too good that way), relationship between different temperature, humidity and zone is good. I meant it is not dessert like conditions, not too hot, not too cold, it is not too wet and so, generally it is good place to grow plants (It is in balance some way). Not major problems, of course things could have been better, and there is problem, but relative good way any way. What about other side then for example Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. with well below 100%? It indicates there is some problem in growing season. It is too warm/hot, too dry, not enough humidity, not enough growing degree days, not enough water, too cold for example. There is something problem on growing plants in some way (Which you should probably take to account when growing plants there). Above analysis clearly show june low humidity and low rain is the missing link in the Phoenix, Arizona, U.S.A. Same thing could apply to Fresno, California, U.S.A. i think. Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. and Helena, Montana, U.S.A. might be different story. Both have less than 100%, but i am not sure small amount of rain is the reason for them. Seattle, Washington, U.S.a. may actually have enough rain, based on the weather data. But low % is because i think it have quite high zone 8, and not same amount rain as the Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. has in same zone 8, but more closely look show dew points are lower in Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. than Charlotte, North Carolina, U.S.A. If zone in Seattle, Washington, U.S.A. would be lower % might be higher, i think. That might be reason for that. Then Helena, Montana, U.S.A. it also have less than 100%, but again i have doubts whether this is due to little rain. Helena, Montana, U.S.A. had some rain during summer june, july, august 2008, Montana is in Canada boarder, might that be reason that Canada pushed cold air to Montana, which is dry, so zone came to 5 and air was dry (low in humidity)? That might be reason (perhaps, not very sure). So it looks like, if your % was low, you should have to look what is possible reason for it. It doesn't need to mean you can't grow things (I said this for that reason, because you do not get desperate, not mention to discourage anyone). I stop now, hopefully this did not went too hard/mathematically. But remember this was just mine calculations, no need to be taken too seriosly it.

Some of the "new for 2008" varieties I'm seeing in catalogues this year (Jolly Bee geraniums, Sundown and Harvest Moon coneflowers, Treasure Island sedge, some of the fun "winky" columbines, brunnera Jack Frost)were all available through my local grocery store garden centre LAST spring - at really sweet prices (less than $2 for a 2" pot or $6.99 for a gallon pot). I find if you visit a few garden centres it's easy to spot the "new" or "unusual" or "unique" plants that often just get tucked onto a bench. Helps too if the garden centre staff recognize you as a regular customer and point you in the right direction. I, too, get very excited browsing the catalogues making lists of all the stuff I'd buy if money (and space) were limitless - the list travels with me and sometimes I find much more inexpensive pots by shopping locally. By the way I would highly, HIGHLY recommend Jolly Bee geranium. It grew quickly into a lovely, sprawling mass that flowered profusely for July until almost the end of September.

Hello Bryan! Trish too! Sounds like you two are doing well. I've been absent from the forum for awhile due to several reasons. I really wrecked my back last fall(ruptured my L5, S1 disk) and went through pyshical therapy for 4 months in order to be able to work this year. I have avoided surgery for the time being and so far, this planting season hasn't been too awfully painful. I've added some new woodies to my "already too large for one person to manage" field. I put in 100 Avalanche lilacs, 50 Ruby spice summersweet, 50 Arnold red honeysuckle, 50 Guincho purple elder, 100 Saugeana Chinese lilac, 50 Calicapra beautyberry, 20 Exochorda pearlsbush, 50 Fothergilla mount airy, 50 French pussy willow, 50 Charles Joly lilac, 50 Pres Grevy lilac, 50 chinese lilac sunday, 50 Asessippi Lilac, and 20 Seven-son flower. That field has now grown to 9 acres of woodies. I started it 5 years ago and I'll finally be able to harvest my snowball viburnum, cranberry viburnum, blue muffin viburnum, pee-gee hydrangea. I will also be able to harvest some lilacs; Sensation, Beauty of moscow, Wedgewood blue, Monge purple, Mount baker, and Pocahontas. Some of my baptisia crosses will flower for the first time this year as well, so I will finally see what the hybrids look like. The annuals are prety much the same as most with Suns, Zins and glads making up the bulk of the main event flowers. I should have about a 1/2 acre of butterfly milkeed this year. That orange always looks great with the purple hoary vervain and suns. I also have the rest of my natives to compliment the boquets. Due to my back injury, we didn't do nearly as many wreaths last year, hopefully this year I can stay injury free. Trish, We might be taking a late summer trip to Michigan. Where are you located and would you mind visitors? Nice to read all the info and see what people are up to again. It gets me amped up to get er' done! Take care, Steve

Hi Katrina, It has been quite a while since we've had a hard freeze this early, but I've been expecting it for a couple of months based on our general weather pattern this fall in Love County (much cooler nights in Sept. and Oct. than usual), the squirrel activity (the highest by far that I've ever seen) and the predator activity (coyotes, bobcats and other predators hunting in broad daylight virtually all day long, which we usually don't see until Jan. or Feb.). I've also just had that 'feeling in my bones' that a hard winter is coming. I suspect this is just a normal fluctuation in weather patterns, taking us back more to the kind of weather we had about a decade ago. Also, sunspot activity has been nil this year and that could be a cause of our cooler weather. A hard freeze here in Love County this morning--24 degrees and a heavy frost, so my warm growing season is over. Happily, I can now clean out the beds and plant cool-season annuals like pansies and violas. In a good winter, they'll bloom all winter and into spring with little to no frost or freeze damage. In a 'bad' winter, though, they will suffer some freeze damage and setbacks. I'm expecting a bad winter, but I'll plant the cool-season flowers anyway. Dawn