Interesting post, Sue. Much to think about. I agree with you in some of your thoughts about art (my wife is a professional sculptor). Also some of your other ideas.

Stay in the dialogue here. And best of luck on the land, with your art, homeschooling, etc.

Joel
(western Canada)

Hi Sue; you have an interesting member page and seem to so busy and creative. I have a neighbor who is, with her husband, a painter and recently pulled her two children out of public school for home schooling. She does some gardening but also buys eggs and vegetables from my farm.

Don't take this wrong but you seem a little confused about seed growing, saving, and properties. For more than 10,000 years people have been collecting and saving seeds for later replanting; each year they took pains to select the seed from the best plants for the next plantings. Some of these have come down to us as Heirloom varieties which are always "open-pollinated" (OP)) and genetically quite diverse.

When these OP heirloom varieties are grown out, no two plants are exactly alike. The advantage here is that if a pest or disease or bad weather strikes, some of the plants might resist damage even though most of their sisters might decline. So over the years OP heirlooms will change as each generation of reseedings adapt to existing conditions.

Plant scientists began uncovering the secrets of plant genetics and how to direct changes in plant properties over a century ago. Before the mid-20th century, plant breeders developed means for controlling hybridization of major food and fiber crops. A farmer could then purchase a hybrid variety with known (predictable) properties, These "first generation" (F1) hybrids have nearly identical individual plants (or very limited genetic diversity). These directed hybrids usually also offered higher yields brought on by what is called "hybrid vigor" and so are very attractive to farmers.

Hybridization can happen spontaneously, of course. We see that in our gardens when different kinds of corn cross-pollinate and the next year's replanted corn seeds show the effects of crossing. In the old days, cross pollination led to plants with different traits found to be valuable. Farmers and early plant breeders replanted seed from these new-ish plants and reselected for those desirable traits over generations of replants. Eventually these hybrids became "stable", that is, when their seed was planted, the resulting plants came true to type. If you have seen the word Traditional applied to an old-time variety, this often refers to an earlier stable commercial hybrid.

Most farmers dropped the older OP varieties and old-fashioned traditional stable hybrids to buy F1 "improved" hybrid varieties. Unfortunately, hybrid varieties from these processes cannot produce seed that is consistently true to type. So if one replants seed from an F1 crookneck squash, the resulting progeny might produce a hundred kinds of plants with a hundred different fruit types, a few of which might look like crookneck squash.

The farm therefore is required to go back to the seed company to buy the F1 hybrid seed.

The genetically modified/engineered seeds differ in fundamentally different ways from the seeds of yesteryears. Most are described as transgenic in that their engineering involves insertion of DNA materials from other unrelated species of plants, animals or microorganisms. Once these transgenic traits are introduced and pass testing and regulatory hurdles, seed is produced along more traditional lines for marketing to contracting farmers.

Some gm varieties might even reproduced stablely like the old fashioned OP Heirloom and Traditional varieties. In fact, the developmental costs of transgenic crops are so great that breeders work out reproducible lines if possible. The seeds are patented but so are the genetic modifications and even the plant traits. So, you might be able to grow out seed saved from a gm variety successfully but be potentially in a world of hurt with the law. Pollen from a transgenic crop can cross with your related variety so that your food is technically contaminated with the patented genetics too.

This is getting a bit long, ain't it...?

Just a word about Terminator technology. This is not a seed or varietie but a built-in suicide gene complex to stop unauthorized production or reproduction of patented gmos. In some cases, a proprietal chemical materials needs to be applied to a crop to counter the Terminator genetics and so the plants can complete their life cycle.

I hope this helps some.

Thanks for clearing up some things for me too Marshall

It just occured to me while reading Marshall's post that seedless watermelons are fully "terminator" technology!

That was good Marshall. Should we just send our $15 membership to you from now on?

...why it sounds like a step towards human convience to enjoy more with out wasting time spitting out seeds.

What are the differences/comparisons of the same watermelons (used for the genetic alteration)which do produce seeds as far as the vitality of nutrients and if any differences show up.
How is the manipulated genetic information ingested by its host and how can that information effect new DNA of another species in the food chain? What are the studies (being)done and what do the results (if any) show remotely to the thought that the nutrient value has not be compromised that the vitality and health of the plant used in consumption is of the utmost of all importance in true agriculture attempts ?

After a recent google I found this on proprietal chemical...I guess this isnt helping me understand....could you please tell me better what the term means?

Here is a link that might be useful: proprietal chemical

Thanks for the offers of financial support. And other accolades. :>)

Sue, proprietal chemical means a material patented and sold by the company for a specific use or uses for which the patent was awarded.

Seedless watermelons have seed, just so atrophied that eating them is hardly noticable. Sterility is a kind of Terminator technology although pollination is still required to set fruit. Otherwise the technology would be parenthogenic -- fruit production without pollinator.

I don't know of differences in nutrition. We eat the sugar-rich "placenta" and spit out seeds.

There remains controversy over the safety of some gm crops for livestock, humans and other organisms in the biosphere. There has been limited toxicological research on such materials because of a basic assumption called "substantial equivalence", or the novel transgenic constructs do not differ in any significant way from their natural analogs. When no one is looking for effects, finding evidence of adverse effects is difficult. When gmo foodstuffs are not labeled, there is no way to measure effects of ingestion on the large-scale testing required for meaningful acute and long-term effects, if any.

We eat the sugar-rich "placenta" and...................

Well, the one I bought [seedless watermelon that is] to see if I have been missing anything, looked fairly good before and after cutting. It was about 8 pounds...a large mini. Well, the sweetness was poor so I added xylitol [Glycemic Index of 7] to make it edible!! Texture was not as good as larger home grown "good" melons either.

Be sure to wash melons before cutting as the knife might carry bacteria into the melon.....particularily these imported Mexican melons in off-season.

Many melons and watermelons are picked in the unripe state and so never quite sweeten up the way they should on the store or home shelf. In fact breeders look to introduce the appearances of ripeness so as to allow earlier harvesting. We end up with way to many beautiful fruit without real ripe-fruit tastes.

So again, I hear "breeders" are more concerned about a market plan rather than the delivery of a fruit full of the greatest potential of healthy goodies in it and I am not referring to the new (GMO)pharm foods, either!

I am still unclear to what happens in 3rd world countries and here in the US with the heirloom saved seeds when they decide or have been mandated to use GMOor the likes of? Do they offer it up, use it up themsleves for food or just sell it out knowing that new seed is on its way?

I have tried to find this out in a google, but I find myself unclear to methodology regarding these practises and the uniqueness of each farmers dilemma to purchase gmos for the first time and the dependent need or desire to continue in subsequent years to follow.

Are farmers offered restituition if the seeds dont preform or are there too many tangibles in the growing season.

Basicly, can a farmer get their money back if they are not satisfied and do they have recourse to the seeds of their past?

-there is a recent thread, on this forum, titled: Peruvian agreement protects heirloom potatos. See below. It pertains to an effort to set up special zone in Peru where traditional varieties of potato can be grown, without being subjected to interference from anyone who owns patent rights to certain seed types. To my knowledge this concept has yet to be tested in court, so I regard it as a kind of legal experiment.